5i to XS-2 upgrade - worth it?
Posted by: Williewonka on 19 October 2015
I've had the 5i (i in italics) for a few years and it sounds really nice, but I think the image could be deeper and a little wider. (from what I've heard on other systems)
Will moving up to the XS-2 (i.e. without a separate power supply) significantly improve on the image ?
Many Thanks
You are likely to make a greater impact by looking at the positioning of your speakers. We need a lot more information to be able to comment meaningfully on this question.
Mainly what the XS 2 will do is add more meat on the bones.
It may not overly impress at first but you might find it hard to go back to the 5i once you got used to it.
Does the 5i have a 1/4" headphone jack?
I happen to like the 5i a lot. I've run my CDS 3/XPS2 through it into Allaes and it sounds great. On a temporary basis I ran a Sony XA5400ES into it and into Wilson Sasha 2's and it did amazingly well. In terms of value for your money, having purchased a 5i, the step to a XS2 is IMO not the best use of your money.
My mate is going through the same thing.
His speakers are SF Liuto and the source is CD5i.
We tried my XS vs the 5i and it was a nice improvement. The energy was retained with the XS but it was a bit more meaty.
Not long ago he tried a SN2. While the SN2 sounded nice and very "HiFi", it was pedestrian. The 5i was far more enjoyable and engaging. The SN2 came alive once the volume was pushed but then it was too loud!
If you're looking to "upgrade", you can't go wrong with a second hand XS. Buying new, I'm not convinced the gains are big enough.
However it depends on the style of music you mainly listen to... My mate is all old school rock n roll and the 5i series can't be beat for PRaT.
I've had the 5i (i in italics) for a few years and it sounds really nice, but I think the image could be deeper and a little wider. (from what I've heard on other systems)
Will moving up to the XS-2 (i.e. without a separate power supply) significantly improve on the image ?
Many Thanks
From listening auditions I found the Nait XS-2 improved the sound quality overall, when compared to the Nait 5i.
However one of the classic 'debates' on this forum was about musicality, and some people thought that the Nait 5i was more musical than the Nait XS-2. I never found that to be the case and maybe it depends more on source input, main type of music being played.
You are likely to make a greater impact by looking at the positioning of your speakers.
Even by shifting speaker layout centimetre by centimetre, amazing things can happen to the soundstage and the total musical performance. Toe-in at different angles needs careful consideration too.
The Nait 5i-2 is very special. If you didn't have either then the XS-2 makes more sense, but I don't think it's a significant enough upgrade over the 5i to switch.
As far as imaging is concerned, I agree with HH that speaker positioning will likely yield more significant results than changing the amplification.
Are you buying new? if so go to your dealer, get an amp on home dem, then you'll know what 'your' opinion is, which is the only one that really counts ;-)
I've had the 5i (i in italics) for a few years and it sounds really nice, but I think the image could be deeper and a little wider. (from what I've heard on other systems)
Will moving up to the XS-2 (i.e. without a separate power supply) significantly improve on the image ?
Many Thanks
sorry, but you forgot to mention one little "insignificant" detail: the rest of the setup, and especially the speakers...
there are speakers where the 5i cannot properly drive them, and XS makes a better job, and the sound becomes more refined, heavier and fatter, and with more depth, albeit slightly darker...
BUT, there are situations, where the 5i is prefferable... even in a setup where clearly the speakers need more control. i will explain my own finding in this matter:
although the 5i could not drive quite properly my older spendors, and the XS was clearly better in hifi terms, at the certain moment, when rearranging the living room, in the new (at the time) position the bass frequency was artificially enhanced so actually the heavier sound of the XS was way too much in that direction... it made the system sound slow and woobly, and instead, with 5i, was crisp, fast and lively...
so, as always, theory is one thing, and practice is another. and audio is like sex: it is ok to talk about it, but it is better to practice it!
my point is: do not take decisions before you try! you might make a not so likeable move...
just my 2 cents.
The Nait 5i-2 is very special. If you didn't have either then the XS-2 makes more sense, but I don't think it's a significant enough upgrade over the 5i to switch.
As far as imaging is concerned, I agree with HH that speaker positioning will likely yield more significant results than changing the amplification.
I compared the 5i and the 5si in store and to be honest didn't notice that much difference. I owned the 5i and found it to be very snappy and excellent with some material but overall less forgiving than the XS 2. Basically the XS 2 has a more rounded sound and to my ears is less fatiguing and easier to live with over time. Of course the best way to find out would be to live with both long enough to draw your own conclusions.
I have found there are to be four improvements of the XS-2 in comparison to the 5i.
First, Resolution: if the source and speakers are up to it, the XS-2 can transmit much more detail than the 5i.
Second, Bass response: all other things being equal, the XS-2 has tighter, firmer and deeper bass.
Third, Speaker control: the XS-2 can make better use of speakers that present a more difficult load to the amp.
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I have described the 5i series as an excitable puppy that always wants to play rough and tumble games, fun, quite often OTT, but rarely subtle!
On the other hand, that fun, excitable, OTT presentation is beguiling; and sometimes that can more than make up for its other limitations.
In short it depends on what you want and what the partnering equipment is.
Thanks for all the input - it has been a great help.
The missing bits...
1. My speakers are Gershman Acoustics Sonogram's, which are pretty easy to drive and it appears the 5i has no problem driving them - I have spent a lot of time positioning them and currently they sound the best I've ever had them and they are completely "invisible"
2. Rest of the setup includes
- Simaudio Moon LP5.3 phono + Soundsmith Cartridge on an Audiomods Arm on a custom TT
- Schiit Bifrost DAC with V-link192 USB-SPDIF converter
- KLE gZero6 SC's and gZero20 IC's and high quality Power cables throughout on a dedicated line
As I said in my original post - I think the image could be a little deeper.
I do realize the room I have the system in could be part of the problem...
- it is only 15 ft x 12 ft x 8ft high
- the speakers back onto the 12ft wall at one end and are approximately 37 inches from the wall
- the other end has a bow window 4ft high and 6ft wide with drapes
- I did try the speakers closer to the wall and also a little further away from the wall, but their current position provides the best fidelity and image
- the furniture in the room achieves a nicely balanced sound - there are no standing waves, bass issues or peaks across the audible frequency.
I am currently thinking of placing dispersion panels behind the speakers to deal with any reflected sound from the wall behind, which I believe to be "compressing" the image i.e. front to back only - image width is very good - any thoughts on that?
Generally the image is very good, but from what I have read, the NAIM gear with active pre-amps seem to do a better job - and the next up from the 5i is the XS-2 - I would like to get an appreciation of how much better and from the feedback above it would seem I should save my money :-)
I did try to audition the XS today, but the dealer where I bought my 5i has dropped the line, so I have to go into Toronto - maybe tomorrow
Ay thoughts on the dispersion panels would help
I have seen two types
- one has triangular pieces of wood on a backboard, which you can place horizontally and vertically
- the other has blocks of wood of varying sizes
As an example of what I am trying to achieve, a couple of audio stores have large room with 5-6 ft behind speakers and their image is superb - I just don't have the space
Thanks for all the help - much appreciated
I have found there are to be four improvements of the XS-2 in comparison to the 5i.
First, Resolution: if the source and speakers are up to it, the XS-2 can transmit much more detail than the 5i.
Second, Bass response: all other things being equal, the XS-2 has tighter, firmer and deeper bass.
Third, Speaker control: the XS-2 can make better use of speakers that present a more difficult load to the amp.
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I have described the 5i series as an excitable puppy that always wants to play rough and tumble games, fun, quite often OTT, but rarely subtle!
On the other hand, that fun, excitable, OTT presentation is beguiling; and sometimes that can more than make up for its other limitations.
In short it depends on what you want and what the partnering equipment is.
#5 - 1/4" Headphone Jack
I have found there are to be four improvements of the XS-2 in comparison to the 5i.
First, Resolution: if the source and speakers are up to it, the XS-2 can transmit much more detail than the 5i.
Second, Bass response: all other things being equal, the XS-2 has tighter, firmer and deeper bass.
Third, Speaker control: the XS-2 can make better use of speakers that present a more difficult load to the amp.
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I have described the 5i series as an excitable puppy that always wants to play rough and tumble games, fun, quite often OTT, but rarely subtle!
On the other hand, that fun, excitable, OTT presentation is beguiling; and sometimes that can more than make up for its other limitations.
In short it depends on what you want and what the partnering equipment is.
Also the Nait XS is upgradeable with a FlatcapXS which improves it even more when you are ready. We upgraded from the original Nait5i to the NaitXS and it was from dark to daylight. The Flatcap adds more of everything. We are very happy with ours, using a CD5X and nSat speakers. We were not that happy with the Nait5i, even though it got great reviews in its day.
I have found there are to be four improvements of the XS-2 in comparison to the 5i.
First, Resolution: if the source and speakers are up to it, the XS-2 can transmit much more detail than the 5i.
Second, Bass response: all other things being equal, the XS-2 has tighter, firmer and deeper bass.
Third, Speaker control: the XS-2 can make better use of speakers that present a more difficult load to the amp.
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I have described the 5i series as an excitable puppy that always wants to play rough and tumble games, fun, quite often OTT, but rarely subtle!
On the other hand, that fun, excitable, OTT presentation is beguiling; and sometimes that can more than make up for its other limitations.
In short it depends on what you want and what the partnering equipment is.
Also the Nait XS is upgradeable with a FlatcapXS which improves it even more when you are ready. We upgraded from the original Nait5i to the NaitXS and it was from dark to daylight. The Flatcap adds more of everything. We are very happy with ours, using a CD5X and nSat speakers. We were not that happy with the Nait5i, even though it got great reviews in its day.
HICAP too right? 
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I disagree that that 'bounce' isn't present in the music. In my experience the further one goes up the chain past the XS-2, the presentation starts to sound more like the 5i and that bounce returns along with superior hi-fi performance.
I was thinking about the Supernait 2, but I'm only using CDs and don't buy the amplifier for its extra features (certainly not for the balance adapter...) just for better sound. But I still need to compare those two.
Also the Nait XS is upgradeable with a FlatcapXS which improves it even more when you are ready. We upgraded from the original Nait5i to the NaitXS and it was from dark to daylight. The Flatcap adds more of everything. We are very happy with ours, using a CD5X and nSat speakers. We were not that happy with the Nait5i, even though it got great reviews in its day.
HICAP too right?
Ooooh yes 
Obviously the Nait XS gives you the ability to upgrade as you see fit whereas the 5i is a 'dead end' as far as moving on up goes... The HiCap is stunning with the XS imo & I also have the option to do pre or power amp upgrade with the XS in the future to stagger the costs.
I have found there are to be four improvements of the XS-2 in comparison to the 5i.
First, Resolution: if the source and speakers are up to it, the XS-2 can transmit much more detail than the 5i.
Second, Bass response: all other things being equal, the XS-2 has tighter, firmer and deeper bass.
Third, Speaker control: the XS-2 can make better use of speakers that present a more difficult load to the amp.
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I have described the 5i series as an excitable puppy that always wants to play rough and tumble games, fun, quite often OTT, but rarely subtle!
On the other hand, that fun, excitable, OTT presentation is beguiling; and sometimes that can more than make up for its other limitations.
In short it depends on what you want and what the partnering equipment is.
a very, VERY good and exact presentation of the 2 amps!!! bravo!
Also the Nait XS is upgradeable with a FlatcapXS which improves it even more when you are ready. We upgraded from the original Nait5i to the NaitXS and it was from dark to daylight. The Flatcap adds more of everything. We are very happy with ours, using a CD5X and nSat speakers. We were not that happy with the Nait5i, even though it got great reviews in its day.
with this i slightly disagree, to a degree or two... flatcap (2x or XS) ot me was almost unuseful to cdps, be it on cd5x(xs). Or nait XS, it did make some light improvement. but for that amount, better cables, or even better, a used and lower price SN was way better!
the hicap, on the other hand, does have a bigger impact, both on cd5x and XS, it makes the image slightly better defined, and music flow slightly more coherent, but again, no real or huge improvement (i am talking about nonDR hicap)
My mate is going through the same thing.
His speakers are SF Liuto and the source is CD5i.
We tried my XS vs the 5i and it was a nice improvement. The energy was retained with the XS but it was a bit more meaty.
Not long ago he tried a SN2. While the SN2 sounded nice and very "HiFi", it was pedestrian. The 5i was far more enjoyable and engaging. The SN2 came alive once the volume was pushed but then it was too loud!
If you're looking to "upgrade", you can't go wrong with a second hand XS. Buying new, I'm not convinced the gains are big enough.
However it depends on the style of music you mainly listen to... My mate is all old school rock n roll and the 5i series can't be beat for PRaT.
Naim and Liuto series from Sonus Faber - to me not quite the matching as for all other Sonus Faber series... Liuto likes class A solid states or tube gear...
and 5i on Liuto deffinately no go, the 5i cannot control properly the Liuto drivers, that's for sure... the XS is the minimum necessary, but as i said, better off with other Sonus Faber series, or better of with different electronics on Liuto.
the famous 5i series PRAT (which i also enjoy a lot since i have owned about 5 or 6 Nait 5i's throughout my hifi life in various points, and for various reasons) is actually the result of dynamic compression. the 5i lack complexity in it's replay and this is translated into a more direct and faster (livelier and joyfull) sound... which can be all that one needs in certain conditions!
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I disagree that that 'bounce' isn't present in the music. In my experience the further one goes up the chain past the XS-2, the presentation starts to sound more like the 5i and that bounce returns along with superior hi-fi performance.
Sorry, I have to disagree, my experience of the 5i and XS-2 was based of comparison of recordings with live performances.
When energy is naturally present in the music, the difference was less prominent. When the music was of a less energetic nature, I found that the 5i series can add extra 'bounce' that just wasn't present when heard live.
The 5i seems to use this to make up for (or because of) the lower resolution achieved by the simpler (and substantially cheaper) design. By doing this, it maintains interest in the music which could otherwise be lost when the more subtle details aren't transmitted.
This isn't a fault as such, just a limitation that's a sensible compromise for a cheaper product.
Fourth, Subtlety: when playing more subtle music, the XS-2 will produce the music more naturally, where as the 5i will often add a degree of extra 'bounce' that isn't actually present in the music.
I disagree that that 'bounce' isn't present in the music. In my experience the further one goes up the chain past the XS-2, the presentation starts to sound more like the 5i and that bounce returns along with superior hi-fi performance.
Sorry, I have to disagree, my experience of the 5i and XS-2 was based of comparison of recordings with live performances.
When energy is naturally present in the music, the difference was less prominent. When the music was of a less energetic nature, I found that the 5i series can add extra 'bounce' that just wasn't present when heard live.
The 5i seems to use this to make up for (or because of) the lower resolution achieved by the simpler (and substantially cheaper) design. By doing this, it maintains interest in the music which could otherwise be lost when the more subtle details aren't transmitted.
This isn't a fault as such, just a limitation that's a sensible compromise for a cheaper product.
Spot on Huge - I concur.
The XS-2 (as it should at the price) delivers a better and more sophisticated sound than its less expensive sibling. The problem with upgrades is that everything else in the chain (including room acoustics) has to be synergistic and copacetic to make them worthwhile.
Or; to put it another way, as one climbs the resolution and bandwidth ladder, it becomes harder and harder to realise (hear) 100% of the performance potential.
John.
I'm not sure what you mean by "comparison of recordings with live performances". What else would one compare recordings to?