UnitiServe - a few queries

Hi Mitch.  The directory (folder) where the UnitiServe stores the music it rips from a CD is called a "store."  For music already ripped, it does not need to convert anything.  The folders that contain your current music can simply be added to the places the UnitiServe looks for music, after which you can play it.  These locations are called a "share."  Shares are unaltered by the UnitiServe; they are network locations that contain music you want to play.

The DTC is not used to play music when the UnitiServe is used as a UPnP server; it's used to set system parameters and edit metadata for music that you've ripped with the UnitiServe.  I'm pretty sure that if you use your UnitiServe merely as a player (connected by a digital cable directly into a dac or cd player that accepts an external input), you can control it playing music with the DTC.

If you are using the US as a hard-wired player, you can also easily control what it plays using the Naim n-serve app which runs on any IOS device. If you are using the US as a server, then the best way to control what it plays is the naim app which runs on IOS or Android and controls what the NDX asks for.

Regarding the "can't play" issue, I never saw this with the US, but if you have files that aren't playable in a share (as described by Bart) then they still won't play.  For example although your NDX can play DSD files and you could have those in a share which the US will index, it can't stream them to your streamer.  But for rips from CDs you make with the US, you won't get any can't play messages.

Personally I find the US to be a very easy companion to have around.  It's pretty expensive for what it does, but then so is most Naim equipment!

best

David

Hi musicmad

Sounds like what you are thinking of is having the US connected with it's digital out into the nDAC for playing CDs, and also using it to replace the NAS and be your uPnP server as well. 

As Bart and David have said, it can do both, and you would use two different apps for the server function and the CD player function.  I've no idea how a US would compare to a CD5x when used as a CD player, though you obvioyusly get the benefit of using the nDAC in this setup. 

Whether it would fix the "can't play" issue is hard to say.  If you see that with both Asset and Minim, then it sounds like a network issue, so could also be present with a US.  You describe your router as Virgin (Netgear).  Does that Virgin is your ISP, but you are using a Netgear ADSL modem / router and have ditched the dreaded Virgin Superhub?

David

The dtc is a fantastic way of controlling the servers, but only if you use the ndx as dac for the server. You could use both so you can switch between the server as a player and the ndx, with it's new support for streaming services. On the other hand there is much debate about the quality of the digital out on the userve compared with using it as a Network server.

Claus

I recently had the 'Can't Play' problem with my US. The hard disk needed replacing!

The Virgin Superhub is made by Netgear.

Dave

Thanks, Bart, that helps clarify a few points.  The Manual, section 7 External Storage refers to Any Network Share can be converted to operate as a UnitiServe-SSD Music Store and it was the use of "converted" which I wanted to check.

I started streaming using Logitech Squeezebox and always enjoyed the PC interaction ... selecting, stopping music, etc.  Hence I was hopeful that DTC may provide the same but this looks like wishful thinking.  Yes, there is the iOS control but this is not as convenient for me and with my android smartphone access takes ages (e.g. to pause the music when the phone rings).

Cheers,

Mitch

iOS yes ... use already (iPad and iPod Touch) but the reference to DTC being available on Windows 7 PC raised my hopes that I could control the streaming from my Desktop PC.  Oh well ...

As for the "Can't play" ... this is a misnomer ... the track will play if selected a second time.  What happens is, we find on occasion, that in a selection of music a track will end and the hi-fi goes silent for a time longer than a natural track break ... and re-start having missed out one track (very occasionally: two tracks).  If we're quick enough to see the NDX screen, or iPad/iPod control point screen we'll see the words "Can't play" (or something similar).  If we jump back to the last played track the omitted track(s) will then be played.  There appears to be no set pattern to this and hence I've been unable to determine which part of the system is causing the fault.

Thank you for recommendation .... I do so love my Naim kit!

Mitch

In that I'm very happy with the present set-up, part of me says live with what I've got ... but I know I can get better interaction and sound ... and the CD5x/FC2x won't last for ever.  But I don't want to switch to the US-SSD if this ends up creating problems.  Also, I don't want to re-rip my CD collection and having an organised library I am nervous that US-SSD may destroy many hours of labour cataloging said library.

Yes, I'm happy to switch future ripping duties to the US-SSD but if its process of adopting the existing music library changes the file formats I would be nervous about moving forward.

I should like to think that the CD sound quality (via the nDAC) will not be worse than the present CD5x/FC2x SQ ... and hopefully will be better (for those odd occasions when I play a CD).

As mentioned above the "Can't play" issue is bugging me ... and I'm inclined to think it's a network issue ... perhaps a momentary glich in the NAS reading the file.  If the US-SSD has the same problem then I'd be inclined to think it was the NDX not reading the streamed file(s) correctly.

And as for the Virgin Router ... I'm not sure if this a Superhub being the first one provided to us when we signed up with Virgin a few years ago.  On the back it has the name Netgear and hence I assume this is the manufacturer.  Coincidentally, Virgin are visiting later this week to install an upgrade and I assume this will be a new router.  But I have been contemplating switching the router to modem status only and adding a new home-router into the mix ...

I find this all so confusing!

Cheers,

Mitch

I'm hopeful

Hi Mitch

You could have a look at what the Windows DTC offers without buying a US in that you can download it from Naim's support pages and it will run in Windows 7, although it presumably won't be fooled into thinking that your present NAS is a Naim server and I forget how far you can go with it if it hasn't found a server.  Maybe worth a look anyway. If you buy a US, you still have to download the DTC from their website.  They don't put a copy of it in the box.

Interesting what you say about your "can't play" files.  So it's not the DSD-like issue I suggested. This sounds more like a networking issue.  Did you update the firmware on your NDX yet? There is a fix for improved network discovery in the 4.4 release. The other thing I always suggest if there is a hint of a network issue, is that it is worth having the audio stuff (including PC, NAS, etc) connected via one or more unmanaged switches like the Netgear GS105 with a single Ethernet cable back to the router from one switch. There is no way then that your router's view of what constitutes a priority, or indeed a security rule, getting in the way of your music's path to your streamer.  These switches are very low cost and really fit and forget Items.

best

David

I'm considering the SSD version so hopefully this would not be a problem!

Thank you for Virgin-Netgear confirmation.

Cheers,

Mitch

Hi Claus,

Sorry but I find this rather confusing ... I presently control my music selection and sound level using the Naim app on the iPad or iPod or android smartphone so surely I could still do this.

If DTC gives me extra access via my desktop PC that would be wonderful (Bart says this is only for direct CD play, not for streaming).

As I have the nDAC I don't want to use the NDX's internal DAC - I have digital out only.

I've searched the forum for Unitiserve comments but did not pick any reference to its sound quality (re: playing CDs - digital out to nDAC) being inferior.  Have I misunderstood the point you're making?

Thank you - and to all others - for taking the trouble to reply - it's much appreciated.

Mitch

Thanks, David, for the DTC suggestion - the thought had not crossed my mind.

As for the network issue ... this is pushing my IT knowledge way past its comfort zone!  The present set-up has the QNAP NAS connected directly to the Virgin Router ... and this is then connected directly to the NDX using ethernet ... no switch in this NAS - Router - NDX set-up.

I do have a third port of the Router connected to a switch (Netgear GS308) but this is to feed a second PC, a second (back-up) QNAP NAS and any ad hoc use.

If I buy the US-SSD I believe I shall have to install a switch so that the ethernet cable (from the Router) can feed both the NDX and the US-SSD.

I don't see how I can simplify this any further.

Mitch

Hi Mitch

A few more thoughts based on your replies to the various contributions above.

You could use a Unitiserve SSD in this way.  Set the folder on your current NAS where you have your music as a Music Store per Bart's reply.  Connect the US digital out into your nDac.  Control the US digital out using the DTC software on a PC.  Set up in this way, I think I'm right in saying, the DTC will allow you to search the music on the NAS and control playback via digital out.  If you put a CD in the US, you can also control playback of the CD from DTC.

With this configuration, your NDX would be redundant if all you need to do is play CDs and the music on the NAS.  The US can do internet radio (although I don't think the BBC HLS streams yet), but it will not provide either of the streaming services that you can get with the NDX (Spotify and Tidal).  What the SQ would be like I don't know - in both cases the 1s and 0s would be the same, but getting into your nDAC via different routes.

My sense from your posts is that you've got two problems you are trying to solve.  One is being able to control the NDX from a PC, and the second is getting rid of the "can't play" issue.
  If this is the heart of what you are after, then £2k+ on a US is a pretty expensive fix.

I think you can get  PC-based control point solution.  Don't do this myself, but from memory of other threads if you look at software like JRiver, Bubblepnp and maybe Linn's Kinsky you might find there is something that will allow you to control your NDX from a PC in the way you want.

The "can't play" issue you describe sounds like some sort of confusion between the iOS app, the NDX and the NAS.  Some things to try would be a) re-build the database in Minim and Asset in case some things have got out of sync there; b) turn Compatibility Mode on in the naim app.  And then if still have problems, I would send an email to Naim support.  Phil is excellent at helping people with issues like this.

The other thing I would do is follow Dave's suggestion of putting an unmanaged switch in the system so that you keep the music system's traffic away from the Virgin router. 

I have a US myself and it works great in my system (as a uPnP server), so go for it if you want one.  But to me it sounds like an expensive way to fix your issues.

David

Thanks, David, but I admit to being rather confused now ... and perhaps i do have to have a re-think.

To clarify:

DTC: having got used to the iPad/iPod I can live with this access ... it was my reading of the DTC section of the US-SSD manual which got me thinking this could take me back to Logitech~PC style interface.  I certainly won't put this requirement so high on my list that something else suffers.

iRadio/Spotify/Tidal: no real interest in any of these ... most of my radio listening is the BBC news ...

NDX updates ... i recently did the update which allows Spotify but I have yet to use it; the latest update for Tidal is something I may do when I next dismantle the Fraim (since I need to move the NDX from the living room to my PC work-room)

The "Can't play" issue ... yes, it's annoying (the modern equivalent of the old scratched vinyl LP where the stylus jumped ... except that I know I can go back and play the missing track).  Hence, I haven't devoted a great deal of time to solving it but raised the matter to see if others had similar problems ... especially if using the US-SSD.  It's on my agenda to contact Naim if the problem gets worse, though then hopefully I will spot a pattern.

AssetNas/MinimServer rebuilds ... I don't do these regularly as the former is excellent at noting changes (new rips, amended metadata) and I use the latter only rarely.  But this could certainly be a factor so thank you for mentioning it.

Unmanaged switch: sorry but I don't understand ... where in the circuit (QNAP - Router - NDX) do I install this and for what purpose?

So, having ruled out internet radio and saying I would use the US-SSD for only the odd CD play (but would like this facility) my desire for the US-SSD is "to control" (new rips / administer / serve) my ripped CD music library.  You say I could feed the digital out into the nDAC ... yes, for straightforward CD play (replacing my CD5x) ... but also for streaming purposes, hence making the NDX redundant.  This is not on my agenda at all and confuses me completely.  Surely I need the NDX as the streaming device ...

Sorry for sounding so thick ... I think I need to go back to the Manual, etc. to understand just what the US-SSD can do ...

Mitch

Mitch,

In your first post, you say that your main goal is to add CD playback functionality to your system. If that is still the case, then the UnitiServe is overkill in your existing setup. I would suggest instead to add a CD transport, or trade the CD5X for the CD5XS which has a digital output that you could connect to the nDAC (or a digital input on the NDX).

The CD player function on the UnitiServe works, but is not its best feature and will still require using the nServe app (not available for Android) or the Desktop client (on Windows) or the nServe app on a Mac to select and play tracks. You won't see album information as you do when using the Naim app on the NDX to stream music.

If on the other hand, you wish to replace your NAS and your UPnP server, as David has mentioned, the US will do this very well, and provide ripping and cataloging functions. But do you need these?

It it were me, I would put the money on an XPS for the nDAC.

Hope that helps,

Jan

The key suggestion I am making is that you have only a single connection to your modem/router, which is a cable to one of your switches, and that everything else connects via the switches.  This means that your router has only two functions.  One is to connect your inside network to the Internet and the second is to provide IP Addresses to all of your connected devices.  Well it also provides Wifi to your iPad etc, so that is three things,  But all of the routing between things on your home network should be handled by the switches.  As soon as any of those connections potentially go through the router, you are asking for trouble because there is lots of experience on this Forum that VM and BT hubs (and no doubt other consumer-grade routers) give some people networking issues of various sorts that can be fixed by having all the local networking done through switches.

i think from your description that you have two cables going into your router? If so, try plugging one of them into your switch instead, if that is possible given where everything is.  Certainly if your music is going from your PC or NAS and getting to your NDX via the hub, this could be the source of your occasionally unplayable tracks with the cause possibly being that your NDX loses sight of where the next track in the playlist is coming from.

Anyway this should be easy to try.

I wouldn't get rid of your NDX, as some suggested. Streaming across the network works well and adding a US will make it a breeze to do however you want to control it.

best

David

Ah, I get it!  To me, the switch is a slave and hence I thought less reliable than the Router itself.  But I see what you're saying and am happy to give it a try.

Based on Jan's reply I'm having second thoughts about the US-SSD ... I think I've misunderstood its uses.

Cheers,

Mitch

Thanks, Jan, your reply helps me greatly.  I have got myself rather confused as to what the US-SSD would add to my set-up.  My opening post mentions the CD function but this would be only an extra useful function (allowing me to remove the CD5x/FC2x) ... it's the improvement to the streaming function (and sound quality) of my existing - and future - ripped CD library that is my main goal.

But I clouded the issue by bringing up the DTC inter-face and the issue of Skipped tracks.

Before I started looking at the possibility of buying a US-SSD my main interest had been adding an XPS to the set-up  However, my wife had questioned the need/cost for the XPS ... surely it can't improve the sound quality that much to warrant its cost.  Hence I had moved away from the XPS and looked at the US-SSD!

I think your reply has brought me back to my senses ... I just need to show why the XPS is worth its cost.

Cheers,

Mitch

Mitch, it is not clear to me why you would like to buy a US. I do not see obvious advantages in adding a US to your current system. In fact, I would rather consider streamlining  the system rather than adding new components. If I am not mistaken, you have three DACs in your current chain. That's a lot of redundancy. You could replace your SN1 with a SN2. This would improve the sound quality and simplify your system. As Jan-Erik suggests, you could also add a PS to the Naim DAC. This would likely improve the sound quality and certainly the box count. I am not completely convinced that it makes sense investing a lot of money in the PS of a relatively old Naim DAC, at this point. I, for myself, will wait and see what the upcoming firmware upgrade for the Naim DAC brings and eventually consider replacing my Naim DAC later. Best, nbpf

Good advice, and probably a better first move than adding an XPS to the nDAC.

Jan

I think my reasoning had been: the music I hear is delivered from the NAS by the NDX, via the nDAC and SN1 ... all Naim components.  But creating the library and serving it are by non-Naim components so my thoughts suggested I bring Naim into this side of the system, too.

Following the various replies, etc. I think I'm moving away from that idea.

When I bought the NDX and nDAC (Jan 14) I was criticised by some on the board ...wasting my money buying a DAC given the NDX's on-board DAC.  But I referred to the Naim product pages which show the DAC as an upgrade to the NDX.  My mistake was incorporating the DAC into the system only a few days after the NDX ... I've never been able to distinguish the improvements it brings (the NDX was a massive improvement over the Logitech SBT).

But, yes, you're right: I do have 3 DACs.

Replacing the SN1 with the SN2 does not reduce box count, other than it means I don't buy an XPS!

I've read a few threads about a firmware update to the DAC but I don't know what to expect, if anything.  If I were to buy an XPS I could use it to power the NDX ... but this moves the thread completely away from the original topic: the US-SSD.

Decisions, decisions ...

Cheers,

Mitch

Thanks Jan, I am certainly not writing off the nDAC. In fact, I would already have bought a PSU for the nDAC if Naim had some kind of product roadmap. But given things as they are, I'll wait and see what the upgrade brings and then I'll decide whether to get a PSU or demo another dac or perhaps both! Best, nbpf

I do not have any direct experience with the NDX but it seems a bit strange to me that the nDAC has not brought any improvement in your system. Maybe there is some space for improvements downstram? Or perhaps upstream: do you have a switch between NAS and router? Anyway, I am not a fan of ethernet streaming but NDX + nDAC + SN2 seems to be a well regarded streaming solution. Best, nbpf   

I'm not saying that the nDAC hasn't brought benefits, sound-wise ... it's just that I haven't allowed myself to discover them.  In Jan 14 I replaced the Logitech SBT with the NDX - massive, unbelievable improvement in sound ... and then a few days later installed the nDAC.  Hence I've never been able to distinguish whether the improvement is due solely to the NDX or improved further by the separate DAC.  I like to believe the latter, else I should admit to not getting much benefit from the extra £2k spend.

Various sources have suggested an XPS (or 555PS!) will improve the DAC further which brings me back to ideas of buying the XPS.

On the advice of David (above) I have now linked the QNAP NAS to the NDX via a switch (rather than via the Virgin Router) and will check out for any Skipped tracks in the forthcoming days.

If I thought demonstrating why spend on an XPS would be worthwhile might be difficult, I can imagine suggesting to my better-half that I replace the SN1 with a SN2 will require some strong convincing evidence.

Mitch