Classical Music - Any Way In?

@bodger

Try (via spotify, youtube or whatever first if you like):

Spiegel im Spiegel by Arvo Pärt

Allegri's Miserere (look for the Tallis Scholars version, ideally in Latin not English)

WTC 9/11 (or Different Trains) by Steve Reich

A Rainbow in Curved Air by Terry Riley (pushing at the boundaries of the CM definition with this one)

If you like them, there's more where they came from. Once you get to Rachmaninov's Second Piano Concerto you needn't really listen to anything else ever again...

I keep pondering what brought me to classical - my earliest memories of classical included Verdi's Rigoletto with Callas and Gobbi, which I wanted to listen to because I liked the LP cover, and Beethoven's Für Elise, which led to me getting my first tape at 6 (Wilhelm Kempff). Once it had taken root, the music never left. 

I don't think any of the recommendations here would have worked for me - there is no general passkey for this door... but YMMV. Coming from the angle of popular music, a film like Amadeus might be a useful first step. If the Dies Irae in the end of that movie doesn't move you, I wouldn't bother with the requiem at all.

EJ

Bodger posted:

Clive,

the selections were just a random sample of the prior suggestions from the thread. Anyway, the order is placed now. As this is simply an introduction at this stage, agonising over versions of the same piece is what I wanted to avoid at this stage as stated in my original post.

Bodger,

You are very wise to hold to this starting position and keeping an open mind.  

I have very much wanted to contribute extensively to this topic, as it is near and dear to my heart, but sadly I just have very limited time at the moment to devote the time I would need to unravel this properly (from only my view, of course).

A quick and spontaneous response only then for right now.  Remember that if music were wine, you will get equally intoxicated by the same amount from a source with a screw cap to the very most expensive million dollar bottle.  In other words, if you like any music it is the music that is addictive and not the interpretation.

Strange as this analogy might seem it is apropos from my view since my love of music came to me naturally (without following a Penguin guide or other peoples opinions of what is great and what is not so great).  In my case, my only learning was to follow my senses.  When I heard something that really intrigued me, there would be an immediate sense that I was experiencing something extraordinary.  This could be the sense that the hair on the back of your neck is raised leaving you speechless or tears of joy.  This is not saying that everything is immediate.  Some things do require time and education and so it is a long process and takes stamina and perseverance.

I started playing piano at the age of three.  So something drew me to this music.  But I would say that through education (private and post secondary courses), my own time spent on my piano and recordings I continually grow.  The first records I bought (of Chopin) at the age of 7 left an impression on me for life.  Then in my early 20's I recall first hearing the complete Preludes / Etudes / Concertos as well as the complete Chopin, Beethoven, Liszt, Schubert, Schumann, Rachmaninov, Debussy and other composers had the next reinforcing impact on me.  And from this I keep searching and learning and growing.  As you can see this is not a subject that is easily explained in a couple of paragraphs as I have so much I want to say.  

But I think honestly you have to have something in you that connects you emotionally.  Maybe this can be learned or maybe it cannot be learned?

The last thing I'll say for now is a comment a teacher had said to me when I was a teenager.  It didn't make sense then but 3 or 4 decades later it seems profound to me.  Regarding the music of Bach mainly but in general, all the great music by the great composers, he said to me that what you are doing now is simply learning the notes.  You won't understand the music until you are in your 30's or 40's.  And indeed, I have experienced this despite my reluctance to believe him in this.  I think the essence of this is that you need to experience life and some hard knocks along the way and the good things and the bad things.  Then and only then will some of the profoundness in this great music start to have its effect on you.

Indeed, I was in my late 30's before I really had a miraculous experience (after much work and labour and not quite seeing what all the fuss was about) when it was like someone turned the lights on in the room and I could see clearly.  This was in learning many of Bach's Preludes & Fugues, Sinfonias, and Two-Part Inventions.  This is music that can often seem like just notes but behind the mathematical perfections here there is such marvellous gifts of beauty and life.

Don't get me wrong.  When I was 5 years old or 15 years old or 25 years old I had the same love for this music.  Something in me always pulled me towards it (like a magnet) but the deep connection and love and maturity, like a fine wine, takes time and effort to get there.  In my case, it is certainly worth the effort.

Regards,

Doug

EJS posted:

I keep pondering what brought me to classical - my earliest memories of classical included Verdi's Rigoletto with Callas and Gobbi, which I wanted to listen to because I liked the LP cover, and Beethoven's Für Elise, which led to me getting my first tape at 6 (Wilhelm Kempff). Once it had taken root, the music never left. 

I don't think any of the recommendations here would have worked for me - there is no general passkey for this door... but YMMV. Coming from the angle of popular music, a film like Amadeus might be a useful first step. If the Dies Irae in the end of that movie doesn't move you, I wouldn't bother with the requiem at all.

EJ

 

EJ, well said.  If I had the gift of conciseness this is what I was trying to say!  Thank you.

Florestan posted:

Bodger posted:

Clive,

the selections were just a random sample of the prior suggestions from the thread. Anyway, the order is placed now. As this is simply an introduction at this stage, agonising over versions of the same piece is what I wanted to avoid at this stage as stated in my original post.

Bodger,

You are very wise to hold to this starting position and keeping an open mind.  

I have very much wanted to contribute extensively to this topic, as it is near and dear to my heart, but sadly I just have very limited time at the moment to devote the time I would need to unravel this properly (from only my view, of course).

A quick and spontaneous response only then for right now.  Remember that if music were wine, you will get equally intoxicated by the same amount from a source with a screw cap to the very most expensive million dollar bottle.  In other words, if you like any music it is the music that is addictive and not the interpretation.

Strange as this analogy might seem it is apropos from my view since my love of music came to me naturally (without following a Penguin guide or other peoples opinions of what is great and what is not so great).  In my case, my only learning was to follow my senses.  When I heard something that really intrigued me, there would be an immediate sense that I was experiencing something extraordinary.  This could be the sense that the hair on the back of your neck is raised leaving you speechless or tears of joy.  This is not saying that everything is immediate.  Some things do require time and education and so it is a long process and takes stamina and perseverance.

I started playing piano at the age of three.  So something drew me to this music.  But I would say that through education (private and post secondary courses), my own time spent on my piano and recordings I continually grow.  The first records I bought (of Chopin) at the age of 7 left an impression on me for life.  Then in my early 20's I recall first hearing the complete Preludes / Etudes / Concertos as well as the complete Chopin, Beethoven, Liszt, Schubert, Schumann, Rachmaninov, Debussy and other composers had the next reinforcing impact on me.  And from this I keep searching and learning and growing.  As you can see this is not a subject that is easily explained in a couple of paragraphs as I have so much I want to say.  

But I think honestly you have to have something in you that connects you emotionally.  Maybe this can be learned or maybe it cannot be learned?

The last thing I'll say for now is a comment a teacher had said to me when I was a teenager.  It didn't make sense then but 3 or 4 decades later it seems profound to me.  Regarding the music of Bach mainly but in general, all the great music by the great composers, he said to me that what you are doing now is simply learning the notes.  You won't understand the music until you are in your 30's or 40's.  And indeed, I have experienced this despite my reluctance to believe him in this.  I think the essence of this is that you need to experience life and some hard knocks along the way and the good things and the bad things.  Then and only then will some of the profoundness in this great music start to have its effect on you.

Indeed, I was in my late 30's before I really had a miraculous experience (after much work and labour and not quite seeing what all the fuss was about) when it was like someone turned the lights on in the room and I could see clearly.  This was in learning many of Bach's Preludes & Fugues, Sinfonias, and Two-Part Inventions.  This is music that can often seem like just notes but behind the mathematical perfections here there is such marvellous gifts of beauty and life.

Don't get me wrong.  When I was 5 years old or 15 years old or 25 years old I had the same love for this music.  Something in me always pulled me towards it (like a magnet) but the deep connection and love and maturity, like a fine wine, takes time and effort to get there.  In my case, it is certainly worth the effort.

Regards,

Doug

I read your above post with interest.  I am attracted to someone like Beethoven and feel I can understand his music especially his symphonies and relish the mission of discovering his piano sonatas and chamber music (I heard a little of both and its fascinating stuff, what a great musical mind..!)   I listened intently  to Mahlers symphonies and basically I don't get him completely, I like his early symphonies especially Symphony 1 & 3, but listening to his celebrated 9th Symphony did not move me emotionally and quite frankly sends me to sleep.  I know he was a talented musician who has experienced personal tragedies in his life time and I believe the 9th Symphony is supposed to bring out high, low and peaceful feelings but for me his choice of notes simply do not come alive or talk to me.  Maybe I don't understand the music, but I am over 50 so I realistically do not expect ever to understand his music.   

I love Peanuts, too!

EJ

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Romi,

While I am not going to say that your are wrong, I will say that for the starter it remains crucial that the recorded “version” selected of any given classical musical piece is sympathetic to the style and drive of the music.

Even today there are recordings being made that from the musical aspect are certainly enough to put a beginner off! 

So whilst I am not one for detailed argument over personal opinion about whether say Furtwangler or Toscanini was the greater conductor in a specific Beethoven Symphony, it may be valid to point out which recordings are less fine than either of these legendary Maestros of a long past era.

A case in point is Brahms, whose music is certainly prone, far too often, to quite dull performances. The result is that far too many people think Brahms himself is a bit dull! Not so, but certainly you need to find sympathetic and insightful performances of his music to find the way into it.

ATB from George

 

I note what you say, but in general I would slightly disagree with your view.  If one likes the composition the piece in my experience will hold its own whether performed in a dull fashion or exciting and insightful fashion.  In my experience when listeners mention different versions, what is implied is that the listeners all are interested in the piece but are discussing inferior and superior performances.  If one does not care for a piece of music then it becomes irrelevant how it is performed, you cannot change the notes to be more to your liking?  You may get different interpretations but it will not change in its basic structure.  On another note I was always attracted to Bach's Toccatta and Fugue in D minor, it was the beginning part that caught my ear but then when the piece went on my interest waned because it was played on an organ (as Bach wrote the piece for an organ)  and an Organ can sound muddled.  However my friend played me the same piece played by Andrew Manze on a violin.  Wow what a transformation!  For the first time I felt the beauty of the whole composition, each note made sense and yes Andrew Manze's 'version' was an absolute success for me. - But I was attracted to the piece in the first place for me to here a different version if I did not care for it I would not like the violin version..

Romi posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Romi,

While I am not going to say that your are wrong, I will say that for the starter it remains crucial that the recorded “version” selected of any given classical musical piece is sympathetic to the style and drive of the music.

Even today there are recordings being made that from the musical aspect are certainly enough to put a beginner off! 

So whilst I am not one for detailed argument over personal opinion about whether say Furtwangler or Toscanini was the greater conductor in a specific Beethoven Symphony, it may be valid to point out which recordings are less fine than either of these legendary Maestros of a long past era.

A case in point is Brahms, whose music is certainly prone, far too often, to quite dull performances. The result is that far too many people think Brahms himself is a bit dull! Not so, but certainly you need to find sympathetic and insightful performances of his music to find the way into it.

ATB from George

 

I note what you say, but in general I would slightly disagree with your view.  If one likes the composition the piece in my experience will hold its own whether performed in a dull fashion or exciting and insightful fashion.  In my experience when listeners mention different versions, what is implied is that the listeners all are interested in the piece but are discussing inferior and superior performances.  If one does not care for a piece of music then it becomes irrelevant how it is performed, you cannot change the notes to be more to your liking?  You may get different interpretations but it will not change in its basic structure.  On another note I was always attracted to Bach's Toccatta and Fugue in D minor, it was the beginning part that caught my ear but then when the piece went on my interest waned because it was played on an organ (as Bach wrote the piece for an organ)  and an Organ can sound muddled.  However my friend played me the same piece played by Andrew Manze on a violin.  Wow what a transformation!  For the first time I felt the beauty of the whole composition, each note made sense and yes Andrew Manze's 'version' was an absolute success for me. - But I was attracted to the piece in the first place for me to here a different version if I did not care for it I would not like the violin version..

Dear Romi,

I wish I had been there to advise.  Bach's Organ music was intended for a quite specific type or organ. Organs of the North German High Baroque by such as Arp Schnitke for one great organ builder. And even then the very best of the type can be muddled in a very large space. 

There is an organ series recorded on two immensely suitable organs of Bach’s time [including one Schnitke organ in Lubeck] played by Helmut Walcha between 1947 and 1952 [on DG Arkiv]. Not a quite complete survey, but still available on commercial release [10 CDs] for the very reason that these clarion clear instruments can relay what Bach had in mind - every single note audible and clear ! Mondianesque in effect, they defy the nineteenth century organ to obey the player with clarity. Since Bach’s time organs grew in poweer and variety of tones, but lost their clarity. 

So I would suggest that you investigate the old mono Walcha set if you love this music. It will have the hairs on the back of the neck standing ! Equally Marie Claire Alain [on Erato] made a wonderful series on modern French Baroque style organs in the late 70s and early 80s. Almost as clear, and in stereo if stereo matters with an organ.

So once again it may be seen that without dissecting the performances in bar by bar chunks one can indeed find that a great performance can not only allow a great pleasure in the original beloved music, but enhance one’s comprehension of its thrust and the composer’s notion. Bach’s intention was not misguided, but in so many cases the choice of instrument has made it appear so.

Best wishes from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Romi posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Romi,

While I am not going to say that your are wrong, I will say that for the starter it remains crucial that the recorded “version” selected of any given classical musical piece is sympathetic to the style and drive of the music.

Even today there are recordings being made that from the musical aspect are certainly enough to put a beginner off! 

So whilst I am not one for detailed argument over personal opinion about whether say Furtwangler or Toscanini was the greater conductor in a specific Beethoven Symphony, it may be valid to point out which recordings are less fine than either of these legendary Maestros of a long past era.

A case in point is Brahms, whose music is certainly prone, far too often, to quite dull performances. The result is that far too many people think Brahms himself is a bit dull! Not so, but certainly you need to find sympathetic and insightful performances of his music to find the way into it.

ATB from George

 

I note what you say, but in general I would slightly disagree with your view.  If one likes the composition the piece in my experience will hold its own whether performed in a dull fashion or exciting and insightful fashion.  In my experience when listeners mention different versions, what is implied is that the listeners all are interested in the piece but are discussing inferior and superior performances.  If one does not care for a piece of music then it becomes irrelevant how it is performed, you cannot change the notes to be more to your liking?  You may get different interpretations but it will not change in its basic structure.  On another note I was always attracted to Bach's Toccatta and Fugue in D minor, it was the beginning part that caught my ear but then when the piece went on my interest waned because it was played on an organ (as Bach wrote the piece for an organ)  and an Organ can sound muddled.  However my friend played me the same piece played by Andrew Manze on a violin.  Wow what a transformation!  For the first time I felt the beauty of the whole composition, each note made sense and yes Andrew Manze's 'version' was an absolute success for me. - But I was attracted to the piece in the first place for me to here a different version if I did not care for it I would not like the violin version..

Dear Romi,

I wish I had been there to advise.  Bach's Organ music was intended for a quite specific type or organ. Organs of the North German High Baroque by such as Arp Schnitke for one great organ builder. And even then the very best of the type can be muddled in a very large space. 

There is an organ series recorded on two immensely suitable organs of Bach’s time [including one Schnitke organ in Lubeck] played by Helmut Walcha between 1947 and 1952 [on DG Arkiv]. Not a quite complete survey, but still available on commercial release [10 CDs] for the very reason that these clarion clear instruments can relay what Bach had in mind - every single note audible and clear ! Mondianesque in effect, they defy the nineteenth century organ to obey the player with clarity. Since Bach’s time organs grew in poweer and variety of tones, but lost their clarity. 

So I would suggest that you investigate the old mono Walcha set if you love this music. It will have the hairs on the back of the neck standing ! Equally Marie Claire Alain [on Erato] made a wonderful series on modern French Baroque style organs in the late 70s and early 80s. Almost as clear, and in stereo if stereo matters with an organ.

So once again it may be seen that without dissecting the performances in bar by bar chunks one can indeed find that a great performance can not only allow a great pleasure in the original beloved music, but enhance one’s comprehension of its thrust and the composer’s notion. Bach’s intention was not misguided, but in so many cases the choice of instrument has made it appear so.

Best wishes from George

Dear George,

What you advise above is very interesting and somewhat surprising to me, so am I to assume correctly that apart from the above recommendations all the numerous recordings of Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D minor are on, shall we say on larger organs on Cds will give a muddled version of the piece hence the reason it is not so musically appealing as it should be as intended by Bach?  This may give the reason why I liked the piece so much when played on a violin because the notes were in sharper contrast thus highlighting the structure of the whole composition.   What you are saying is that through more different organs used the music of Bach is being in effect misrepresented...?  A bit like all further music to be played in condensed MP3..? 

Dear Romi,

I certainly make no assumptions about organ recording that I have never heard, but if the result was muddled in effect then either the wrong instrument was used, or the recording produced the muddle, or the player was no good.

In any case with a great player on a great instrument and a good recording every note played in a Bach organ piece should be audible. Bach wrote his music to be clearly heard, and not as some romantic effect.

Simon Preston is another great guide to the clarity that Bach certainly demands for the music to be properly enjoyed.

Walcha, Alain, Preston; these I know are fine. I know a few that are not so, but I am sure that there are many other fine recordings that I have never heard. After Walcha the search ended really for me.

Really to make a recording of Bach Organ music that is muddled for whatever reason is to misrepresent his music! I never thought of it like that, but the truth of this is inescapable, once thought about! Thanks for clarifying something for me that I only moved yowards by instinctive methods!

Here is a wonderful youtube of the Gig Fugue - pure joy - that preserves clarity and is immense fun as well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2TmvVhO_8

You need a good system for this one!

Best wishes from George

Another way might be Nigel Kennedy, who played an astonishingly good concert in Bristol two weeks back. You could try his 'New' Four Seasons (2014), strings and a bit of Massive Attack, or the very lush-sounding The Doors Concerto (2000). If you really miss the bass, drums and vocals, you could do worse than Kafka (1996) which contains some very beautiful violin playing indeed. None of it strictly classical but he sure can play his fiddle.

Some good suggestions on this thread and everyone will have their favourites. Often what you listen to many years later is not the same as the music that you started off with. You develop your own tastes and explore new repertoire over the years. Often a chance encounter will highlight a musical treasure that will become a firm favourite - but not perhaps something that you would choose in say your first 10 albums.

The first classical music that I bought was:

Bruch & Mendelsohnn Violin Concertos

Mozart Symphonies 40 & 41

Prokofiev - Peter & the Wolf/Classical Symphony (quite atypical of the composer)

Rachmaninov - 2nd Piano Concerto

The first chamber music I bought was Schubert - The Trout Quintet followed by the Borodin 2nd String Quartet.

Happy listening

BN

I don't think anyone has mentioned it ... but a good source of some classical recordings (IMO) is to join Bower and Wilkins Society of Sound.  Each month they offer a recording from LSO's catalogue (some brand new some older) for around £35 a year.  Good way to experience a cross section for not too higher price.

Another good source for classical is Brilliant Classics records. Good prices and good quality. If you open a record link  in the Series page you even have samples of the record to listen to. Which can help you in the choice. Enjoy!