Finally, I'm a believer

Spot on, HH.  

i think the point of these cables is not to carry the music any "better" than cheaper versions? after all, the digital cable only needs to ensure electrical continuity to be sure that the music gets to where it is going? 

i may be missing the point completely but i always thought that the point of these cables (maybe not the case with analogue) was to minimize the electrical interference in the equipment that it is connected to. when you plug a cable into a box you are basically plugging an antenna into the unit, which is going to pick up all manner of radiation and introduce EMI into the unit. Opto coupled or not I think the effects will be audible, and this is why "better" cables sound "better". 

I have been working in aviation for 15 years and i had come across many situations where the signal came through but (digital or not) a better cable choice gave better results. I am not surprised that the same applies to audio, although like i said i might be missing the point. 

HH there is no doubt that you hear a difference and you think it worth the cost of the cables.  But you must admit that an alternative to the cable being better is your own expectation bias kicking in (it's not personal, we all have it), or do you close your mind to that possibility?

I guess you are simply too rational and open minded This is not allowed in cable threads.

Let me first establish where I'm starting from in this discussion. As far as my ears are concerned digital audio is snake oil. Fine for masking that screaming wain a few rows behind me in the flight home this afternoon. Tolerable in the car, especially as an alternative to the wailing women that seem to predominate the plot of the Archers these days. When I've tried it my main system (up to CDS2 level) I've been at best underwhelmed and at worst pained. For me whether one Ethernet cable caries a tune better than another is therefore utterly irrelevant. Quite frankly I don't give a damn. 

What little thought I'd given to the matter after reading views here and elsewhere would have been that digital cables should all sound the same, subject of course to them meeting the relevant standards. I believe that I am therefore likely to be free of any bias on the matter (or if anything have a bias towards expecting them to all sound the same).

Few years back I was at a hi-fi show with my brother and another friend and we sat in on a demo by Chord. We sat in because that's what you do at such events and I was curious about the differences between their analogue signal leads. Sure enough there was an audible improvement as they moved up the range though to be honest not as much as I'd expected given the hype that I'd read. Of course part of the problem may have been that the system was digital (Naim source, Dac and two box amplifier into a pair of Focals) and as I may have already mentioned that doesn't really work for me.

Before they'd let us leave they insisted on doing a digital interconnect demo. After the analogue cable demo my expectations were low. Very low. The difference however was immediately apparent, much greater to my ears than the analogue cable differences. The three of us looked at each other just to validate that we were all hearing this. That was not expected. 

Now I do realise that we were talking about Ethernet cables and these were some other digital connection but at the end of the day it's all just bits and logically it shouldn't make a difference, the bits either get through , or they don't. But it did. Don't see therefore why whatever was happening could not also apply to Ethernet. No doubt someone will come along and tell me why Ethernet/interconnects are different. Just love this place

Meanwhile I'm off to grab a glass of wine and play some "real music" and I still don't give a feck if digital signal cables sound different (even though I've heard that they can).

Regards,

Willy.

There's no cable better than no cables , you should all be running with wifi for best results.

I have no faith in individuals who claim something is true based on a theory but refuse to check the theory out for themselves with some rather simple and free (if you care to borrow some cables) tests. There are some respected individuals on here who have taken the time to test these 'theories' out for themselves and found said theories to be false (that is 'bits are only bits' theory and ethernet cables can't make a difference) in spite of rather persuasive technical arguments in favour of the theory.

I am aperticularly bothered by blind adherence to a supposed 'scientific' argument with absolutely no effort to test or validate said argument. I have an engineering degreee and get the 'bits are only bits' argument. But there is a lot we technicians don't understand about the part these wretched bits of wire (analogue and digital) play in the transference of signals and the part that plays in music reproduction.

I have also witnessed the Chord analogue and digital cable demonstration (this particular demo focussed on digital) and there were some absolute sceptics in the room (one was a network technician who spent all is waking hours messing around with Ethernet cabling) trying to figure out how they had been tricked. Much looking behind the kit, cable inspections, even suggestionss of foul play! Very amusing!

I have have also taken the time to try different ethernet cables at different points in my own system at home. And do you know what they made a difference to these ears. Yes, yes there may have been some psychological explanation but I am quite mean (financially that is) when it comes to spending money on bits of wire. So I really didn't want these cables to make a positive difference and then I would be happy in my conclusion that the test was done and if there was an improvement, the cost involved could not be justified on SQ grounds. No such luck.

I did however suspect, as in most things, there might be diminishing returns and didn't test the more expensive options (I am referring to AQ stuff). So I ordered some reasonably priced ehternet cables based on the tests and AQ must have been out of one of them so they (or rather one of their dealers) sent me one of the cables further up the their range that I would never contemplate buying (the Vodka to be specific). I could not believe the improvement this cable produced and it now sits between my switch and my NDS (better Ethernet cables seem to have more influence the nearer they are to the business end i.e. the streamer/renderer).

Blast! I promised myself I would not get involved again in a heated debate (as Mrs Merton used to call them) about cables. See what happens when some mentions the unmentionable. I end up exposing myself as a complete loony with delusional tendencies. Maybe not as delusional of those electrical and network technicians who know all there is to know about networks and network cabling. 

Ho, hum. Night, night.

Colours to the mast first. I too am an Engineer and I tend to the bits are bits side of the fence.  What does tend to bug me is the argument that because a person 'hears' a difference it must be because there is one. The human brain is complex and hearing perception is no exception. To my mind a perceived difference just might be down to the listener rather than the cable. That doesnt mean I think the listener deluded in some way - they really think that they can hear the difference. A double blind test would eliminate any bias but I understand why people would be reluctant to participate as for them they are already content with their choices. So when people say that if science can't explain what they experience therefore the science is wrong or closed minded, I say explore all the possibilities first. There are two parts to consider, the source of the music and the way we hear and interpret it.

Mattnbarns,

Well put. In the end listening to music replay might be considered an artistic endeavor unto itself in that no one can tell an individual what is right or wrong or where value should be placed. We should be glad there's no system cookbook.

Oh yeah, the artistic licence thang.   

I think live listening is best, but 'hear' that some venues are better than others

Dupree, I agree with you Ethernet cables and I have been saying this for a while on the Forum.. I also work with data comms and have been quite involved with EMC on and off over the years. There is much mumbo jumbo and marketing pseudo science spoken about boutique Ethernet cables.. especially with respect to the physical layer and framing data. 

However what is also true is an Ethernet cable is considered as a series (four) imperfect transmission lines. Here there is a concept of directionality.. Two pairs in either direction at 1Gbps, one pair in each direction at 100 Mbps or less. Now these imperfect transmissionlines will couple to the connected equipment and provide an effect in terms of greater or less common mode coupling of the 100 Mbps 31MHz carrier frequencies into the connected equipment..

It is this I suspect people hear with different Ethernet cables (because there are certainly audible differences).. What is interesting you don't have to spend a lot of money to hear these differences.. Certainly in my experience... and it is nothing or minimal to do with Ethernet data.

Texas Instruments have produced an interesting design guideline doc about managing and mitigating Ethernet noise coupling into connected equipment.. 

Simon

Jude,

I've had the disappointing experience of an acoustically superb live venue being defiled by an artist's poorly amplified sound system in spite of a quality performance, so all is not absolute. Wish it were.

Equally bizarre is the often seen post from people who have spent big wonga on several boxes of big Naim and then agonising over where to put the single Powerline..

Come on folks, time to move into the cable big league...

I've just bought a proper CAT6a FTP shielded ethernet patch cable with gold plated RJ45 connectors.

Cost? £275 with a decimal point before the 7.

Welcome to one of the BIG time spenders....

It even works, fine.

Yes, indeed. Any listening test, blind or otherwise would be a step forward!