Wilson Sabrina w/ NAC N-274 & NAP 200DR

With a speaker like the Sabrina, going entirely on the fact that it costs £14,500, I'd suggest that even a 272, XPS, 250DR might be out of its depth, wonderful as it is. As for the other options, that would be just silly. 

Source last seems to be the new source first, but I'm not convinced. I'd have thought an NDS, 552 and 300DR might be more appropriate, but I may be wrong. 

I still have my Wilson System V speakers.

For a long time (c. 1995 - 2010) I fed them with a CDS/52/Supercap/135s

At that time the new price of the Wilsons was c.£24k The new price price of the Naim source/pre/power was c.£8k. So providing you spend c.£5k on your source/pre/power (at new prices) the ratio will be no worse than mine was.

My system was superb. It was improved with better Naim kit of course and then further improved by substituting another make of power amp, but the gist of my comment is..............

..........simply going entirely on the fact that the Sabrina costs £14,500 suggests that even a 272/XPS/250DR might be out of its depth might seem logical, but, as your dealer and Wilson obviously have had similar experiences to myself, such logic isn't foolproof.

I would go with the advice and experience of Wilson and your dealer.

That's reassuring, thanks so much.

Will I get much more by going further up the Naim line?  No question.  Having not heard these on the Rega setup I would normally agree that on paper going higher up the line would be appropriate but given the fact the Sabrina sound so good on a entry level Rega integrated I took notice. I thought, hm maybe I can afford these expensive speakers after all.

The only way I can own a pair of Sabrinas is to consider options I mentioned.  BTW, my dealer mentioned that Wilson loves to demo there speakers on lower priced electronics (Parasound integrated for example) to show off there speakers and give owners an upgrade path.

So speakers 16K, electronics 9K.

Don't worry hungryhalibut I'll leave empty rack for and XPS

Interesting comments from Don and FT, which demonstrate where real world experience can set aside theory. I'd certainly suggest that the 272/250DR is the way to go, as although the 200 may be able to drive the speakers, the 250DR is simply a lot better. Add the power supply down the line and it will be an excellent three box system. Having has a SuperUniti before the current setup I still have massive respect for its abilities, but the bigger setup provides sound quality that is just so much better. If the OP can afford the 272/250 then it is the one to go for at sensible money. 

The further up the Naim chain the better the Wilsons will sound - no doubt about it !

But buying a really good pair of speakers at the beginning does provide a pain-free upgrade path, despite all the "source-first" theories/evidence. Of course, this isn't a universal guarantee of success, nor a common route to good music in the home, but it does work with the right Wilson speakers.

FT is right when he says some Wilson speakers present a dreadful load for amps to drive. Their impedance can drop well below 2 ohms at certain frequencies and most amps can't cope with the resultant massive demand for power. Even Naim's 500s are pushed. Krell's big amps don't even sweat, but that's another story !

actually no Naim amp is a powerhouse... (probably the statement is, but considering it's price, is like it just does not matter)

Naim has a different approach in making the power amps, and they ussually work very well with certain speakers, and are a disaster to others... nothing new so far, as many power amp producers think the same...

while Naim is not a reference in dynamics nor resolution, they seem nowadays to better manage those aspects, and better integrate them with the usual PRaT of the house...

the thing is Naim understood really fast that in a home listening environment, the real live sound characteristics and performance (or some of them, at least) are not as important as the ease of the music flow that comes out of a system, meaning the so called PRaT.

if i would look for a power house of an amplifier i would definatelly look elsewhere, not on Naim's garden... to ask over 10k for only a 90w/channel amplifier means that something else was on desgner's mind and not the fact that that amp (like a 300) should be a power house, because it isn't.

the other good thing is, no matter this small power output of most Naim amps, the PSUs are designed to deliver fast and good rate of current when needed, and this is easily observable with the new DR generation... i was suprised to see the new 200DR and 250DR controlling in a good manner some way above their weight speakers... surely, this cannot be done woth any demanding speaker, and this is what FT was actually saying, that some speakers, hmmm, makes me think at Michale Caine's speech from The Dark Night (some men just wanna watch the world burn), well, some speakers just like to have a real power house (a real welder) and Naim does not provide this... a welder with very high currents for sustained periods of time...

so, to the OP, considering that those Wilsons are quite on the expensive side, i would not go and buy them without a demo!

for the price asked for such a setup, i'm sure the dealer can and will arrange some proper listening test...

there are dealers who care about their business and clients, and the long term is important, and are others who just wanna make fast money and tell you everything you want to hear, so they can grab that deal and cash in the money. i don't really know in which case the OP is, but a demo is a must in his case, this is what i believe...

I listened to the Sabrinas at the recent Windsor show on the end of an Audio Research system and could not detect difficulty in being driven, but the Audio Research amps had significant power reserves.

That said, apart from power there is also a question of fidelity. The Sabrinas will be an open window (that much was obvious in the demo) and will reveal all the ability - and inability - of the upstream electronics. Your dealer seems convinced of the combination which should indicate they do not have weird impedance curves, but Naim amps are quite different in their power delivery from most other amps. In particular beware the Rega experience! The little shoebox sized Rega brio-R is capable of driving much more capable speakers than you'd credit. We've even driven Ovator S-600s quite happily with the little thing. Rega amplifiers seem to have this capacity for driving pretty much anything. I don't know how they do it but it is impressive - and misleading if you're not buying a Rega. The full size Rega amps are that much more capable in terms of drive. A Rega Elicit (one below the top of the range, and their most powerful of the ordinary range) has similar strength of drive as a 200 or possibly a 250.

Your dealer obviously has better experience than me with the combinations but the combinations mentioned in his message tell me that power is of some importance since one would never choose a 172/200 as an option over a 272/150 for the same money except where power becomes important.

There is another option which you should consider if you can - NDX/Supernait. This combination retails at £6370 against the £5225 of the 272/200 and the £6695 of the 272/250DR (which is quite superior to the 272/200 in the context of your choice of speaker). Personally, and with the speakers I know, I prefer the NDX/Supernait over all the other mentioned options above for musical integrity.

Remember these options are only half the solution - you need a high performance server too, preferably a UnitiServe or better. The resolution and nuance missing from less capable servers will be starkly revealed by speakers such as Sabrinas.

As for what's correct in the Naim canon for speakers such as Sabrinas, I suspect that it's any higher echelon Naim system.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Don Atkinson:

But buying a really good pair of speakers at the beginning does provide a pain-free upgrade path, despite all the "source-first" theories/evidence. Of course, this isn't a universal guarantee of success, nor a common route to good music in the home, but it does work with the right Wilson speakers.

+1

Trying to get a pair of speakers that works well in your room can be difficult. Having been fed the Flat Earth philosophy through the 70s/80s today I feel things are FAR more nuanced!

M

catalinmetal, I always enjoy reading your contributions on this forum.

The reason Naim amps sound they way they do is because they do not use parallel output stages like many other amps do, because the Naim sound relies heavily on the firm starting and stopping of notes, which only a single pair of transistors can do (best) without time smear.

I suggest you read the review of the new 300 DR (please google it) to obtain some background.

compromises are necessary to obtain musicality, and in real world situation (i.e. normal volumes, not concert volumes which will destroy your ears at home) I find that even the UQ with 30 watts is fine into a compatible speaker.

And there we have it, Naim amps are better paired with compatible speakers to get that "live" sound that I particularly love (and so do many others)

What use is a speaker that lives at 1ohm impedance? Useless and rather bad design if you ask me.

I think Naim have pushed the envelope as much as possible with the DR amps (but never say never) and you also seem to be ok with this, after all, you did buy 172/200/Ovators?

that's a correct and fair assumtion... usually a poor design speaker results into a very heavy amplifier needed to drive them!

and there is another idea that reads between the lines you wrote, Mr Analog... the one i said it before many times... TIMING and SPEED of an amp is most of the times altered with a very complex design!

take a classic comparison for instance... many loved their 200 and could not get the 250.2 presentation...there were often opened threads here on the forum a few years ago with this subject, 200 vs 250.2... there was quite a percentage which was more pleased with the more direct sound of the 200 instead of the more refined of the 250.2... they felt that the 250.2 had lost something... that radical attack that 200 had... (and luckily, the 200DR keeps)

the 250DR, on the other hand manages to get rid of this feeling, i haven't felt no timing differences on the newer generation... 200/250... but on the older i could say that the 250.2 was a bit slower - subjectively - compared to 200... and that's one evident proof in timing and speed/attack perception.

nevertheless, Mr Analogue, the parallel output trannies DO MEAN something, in competitive designs (such as Simaudio for example), and usually translate into a far better control over a wider range of speakers, and instant better dynamic range, and resolution...

Naim of new tends to gel this qualities into it's own design and phylosophy, and keeping the PRaT and attack that are it's trademarks, and i have to say that the 200DR and 250DR start to be serios business, even withiut some sophisticated design, but with maxed out the already desgn in evry single detail.

Interesting points Catalinmetal 

Yes apparently (this is detailed in Andrew Everard review of 250DR) the founder of Naim was looking for a particular thrill in the reproduction of music of his friends, but found this missing (the speed and attack), so taught himself circuit design, and just made for himself an amplifier that could reproduce music with that live sound and thrill. The rest is history. So from the start Naim amps have always been about the speed and power of the musicians. Deliberate design choices were made.

"music is about people, and if you can't hear what the people on the record are doing, there is no point"

I haven't heard Simaudio yet, but I will follow your money i.e. you did buy Naim so you must prefer it...

For me I prefer speed and attack in the music reproduction over other qualities such as timbre and resolution, and now we are lucky that the DR amps offer the best of all qualities.

Still though, 282/HCDR fronting the old 200 (non DR) is no slouch at all.

I think Naim understands the dilemma of those who buy harder to drive speakers 

I would say these speakers are a BAD design choice. but everyones got to make money right, and so hard to drive speakers need expensive amps, so dealers make money, powerful amp manufacturers make money, and the speaker maker gets to charge lots of money.

one can save a LOT of money by buying speakers that are compatible with Naim.

Dynaudio, Naim Ovators (and other Naim), Neat, Kudos, PMC and Focal. maybe others too, like revel, and maybe Sonus Faber (some of them have very benign impedance curves). They could be others too, but I don't know which ones.

Catalinmetal is a smart man, and knows this, he bought ovators, and found that 200DR was enough to drive them and saved up on buying NAP 250 DR.

Here in NY, we have successfully partnered most of the Naim amps mentioned in this thread with the new Wilson Sabrina's.    The Sabrina is not among the Wilson speakers that present a very difficult load to the amp; in fact they are intended to be relatively easier to drive and relatively easier to position when compared to the higher end models from Wilson Audio.

Always try to hear combinations you are considering in person; but from my experience you could put together a really nice combination of Naim and Wilson with the NAC 272/200 or 272/250 packages or as someone pointed to above, the NDX/Supernait 2 package is also highly capable.

Good listening,

Bruce

Wow, amazing comments, I don't know what to add but just a thank you for making me more comfortable with what my ears and wallet are saying.  I had a chance to hear the Sebrina's again this afternoon on some Classe electronics and compared 5 songs to the B&W 803D & Focal Sofia 2.  The Sebrina's had a more relaxed smoother more balanced sound.  Vocals were very natural sounding on the Sebrina.

"Remember these options are only half the solution - you need a high performance server too, preferably a UnitiServe or better. The resolution and nuance missing from less capable servers will be starkly revealed by speakers such as Sabrinas."

Are you saying that running your music through the UnitiServe sounds better than playing your music from your 274 or NDX to my NAS drive? 

Frank is saying that you need a good server to serve the music to the 272 (not 274) or NDX. I used to own a unitiserve and found that Minimserver running on my Synology nas sounds better. I really wouldn't worry about the Unitiserve if you already have a decent nas. 

As HungryHalibut said. A Naim streamer (NDX, 272, 172) is a networked client which receives streams from other sources. Some of these can be online such as internet radio and streaming services like Tidal and Spotify. However, if you have CDs and wish to play them through your streamer, you need to rip those CDs and hold the rips on a device which then acts as a server. The Naim streamer can then connect to the server and stream the content from that server device. 

The server can be a PC running suitable software (e.g. dbpoweramp to rip your CDs and Asset to serve music out to available clients on your network), or it can be a bespoke solution such as a UnitiServe which does both ripping and serving, usually better than a homebrew solution but at significant extra cost. I am surprised that HH found Minimserver to be better, but I haven't tried it myself.

This is why I consider the streamer as only half the solution.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Also went from a Unitiserve (excellent) to NAS and Minimserver, use dBpoweramp for the odd CD rip, still to WAV.

Once I ripped my entire CD collection to WAV and changed my system build to a 2 box solution I felt I had used the Unitiserve well and now only rip the odd CD I buy cheap on Amazon or find in the bargain bins.

But with permanent upgrade/sideway upgrading/kit excitement 'itis I am considering now a Melco dedicated audio NAS drive and server (with the 272/250DR combo) next year.

It sounds like a cop-out but the most honest answer to this question is that you really have to go take a listen. 

The HiFi News review of the Sabrina's indicated a minimum resistance of 1.1 ohm at 89 Hz, so it looks like they are hard to drive and you should go with an amp which will provide sufficient current into low impedances.

Without sounding too cliche and using all the audiophile word mash I'll attempt to describe the sound.  From top to bottom I found the Sabrina balanced in the sense that I couldn't detect anything missing from MY ideal sound signature. The high frequencies had a refined nuanced quality, detail yet a joy to listen too. I sensed allot of "air" in the music, I could close my eyes and feel enveloped in the music. It has a realism, purity and honestly to the sound that I quite enjoy.

I hope this this helps. I recommend that you audition the Sebrina, even if you have to sell some of your more expensive electronics to own. 

Ok, good to hear. All I want to do is playback my current catalog of lossless files (16&24bit & some DSD).  I did my burning of my library already and don't expect I'll burn anymore in the future.  

I'm starting from scratch so I don't have a NAS drive yet but will be shopping for one soon. Good to hear that Miniserver running on your Synoloy sound great. It sounds like if I get a 272 or NDX I will not need the Unitiserve.