Deciding on a NAS/server solution...

Hi tp

I would agree that Vortexbox matches many of your requirements. At V1.9 it is very stable, easy to administer and update using a flash-less browser based GUI that is a pleasure to use. Software updates (rpm) are regular, elective and installed quickly  with major upgrades about 3 or 4 times a year. I've not had to use the command line for several months and to be honest Linux commands are pretty straightforward with help available from Andrew and the guys at VB.

Sonos and Squeezebox support comes as standard. It is simply a question of selecting the options that you want from the GUI.

It will run on old hardware - easy to create a test machine and very easy to build yourself an impressive Server Raid with high quality parts. It thrives on low power Atom dual core chipsets so your electricity bill will benefit even if you buy one of the ready made appliances.

My new server is a silent, low power and headless.

Most people specify a server with optical drive and the ripping software that works automatically produces excellent flac files by default. However for many reasons my server is storage only and I use one of my Imacs for ripping.

I think the overall package is fantastic. Not perfect yet but developing so fast that I have given up considering alternatives. In terms of value for money it is unbelievable, which I fear is why some people find the whole Vortexbox concept difficult to get their heads around. If it costs nothing for the software (donations only) how can it be worthwhile? If I've spent £XXXXXXX on Naim gear how can I rely on free software and inexpensive hardware when the Naim equivalent costs thousands?

The simple truth is I don't compare it with the UnitiServe or RipNAS anymore; they are different solutions to different problems. My Vortexbox servers have cost me a few days tinkering over the last 9 months and have never let me down or failed to find my Macs or Naim gear.

My setup is this.

Vortexbox "TogServe" testbed V2 (Sony Viao netbook) and a new permanent silent 2TB TogServe which I am setting up over the next few weeks.

Ripping is done on an Imac to aiff for my main music library managed by itunes and streamed to numerous family Apple devices. Main library backup to USB drive in aiff.

I use XLD/Tag to process aiff into basic tagged flac files and Picard to provide detailed tagging.

Files are then dropped into the VB storage share (no protected Naim only management issues) and Bliss is run on the VB to locate artwork and check file paths and tagging.

Within seconds of dropping a file into the VB server and N-Stream picks it up and my Uniti can play it. N-Stream works very quickly but if I want to play files on a Mac I can use Apple Remote and stream flac to itunes! There is a way of streaming from VB to Apple TV2 but I haven't had time to fiddle with that yet.

Vortexbox also rips/streams video with Blu-Ray support coming.

I fully intend to move in the direction of an NDX in the future but VB keeps my Airplay options open.

Great fun

Tog

Hi Tog,

Thanks for the elaborate reply, very interesting. I like the fact that VB seems to be very stable and fast, fully supports Sonos, is continuously developed and regularly updated. If anything, the fact that it's Linux based and Open Source is a good thing. I don't mind it costing little, if it's good, it's good.

However, you seem to be very well versed in all things IT, me on the other hand I am pretty much a novice. I use a PC at work, have a MBP at home but that's about it. I know nothing about Linux, have never used XLD, Picard or Bliss and have never tagged any files. My first reaction is, whoops that seems like quite a bit of stuff to get your head around. But then again maybe it sounds more complicated than it actually is.

What interests me is how a VB solution compares to an AssetNAS (made by RipNas) for example, wouldn't that be an easier solution for someone who just wants to slide in a CD into his MBP, rip it using iTunes and save it on a drive/NAS? What are the advantages or disadvantages of one vs. the other?

Thanks

tp

TP,

As a Mac user myself I would suggest that with no additional investment and therefore staying native to the Mac you rip in iTunes to Apple Lossless (or ALAC). It would not normally be my preferred file format (it is not an open standard) for lossless compressed files but it is Apple native, retains all the metadata and is playable on most devices (including Naim*) and iPhones, iPods etc. You can always convert the files to another format such as FLAC or even WAV or AIFF in the future if required. 

I would not recommend AIFF as it does not retain the metadata, in this respect it is similar to WAV. If you must then AIFF will be a better option than WAV in an iTunes environment as AIFF is an Apple format and better supported by that software.

If you don't want to use iTunes but still stay with native Mac software then XLD is very good at making accurate (i.e. 'secure') rips. iTunes does not work this way so it cannot be guaranteed to make secure rips but many still find it effective and easy to use.

A more expensive option is to get your Mac to run PC software through VMware, Fusion or Boot Camp and then run dBpoweramp to make the rips. I found that this was way better than the other methods and needs careful configuration to be successful. dBPoweramp can also embed a limited amount of metadata in WAV formats (contrary to what I said above) but only a few devices recognise this information so it is not universally compatible in this respect. Sonos does recognise it.

iTunes does not like to store its files on a separate NAS but rather on the machine that the rip was made. It's not really set up to operate with a NAS and results can be unpredictable if you try and force it down this route.

The Sonos is an excellent piece of kit. You do not need to worry about running server software when using it and it can be set up to scan the iTunes music directory on the computer or a network share on a NAS. You choose. Of course you could always copy your iTunes music directory over to the NAS and just point the Sonos at the share in which it resides if you want to run it from the NAS with the Mac turned off.

I would avoid spending money on Asset etc until you really need it - i.e. if you buy a UPnP streamer (such as the NDX, Qute or Uniti).

Finally, having said all of the above, in my opinion and experience nothing beats a Unitiserve or HDX for convenience when making rips and managing them but of course all this comes at a cost. Also, at the present time access to a PC or Mac running Windows under one of the virtual machines mentioned above is required for the Desktop Client that Naim supply for micro-managing the device. 

In fact, with all networked audio I would keep the process as simple as possible unless messing about is your hobby - in which case fine!

Hope this helps. 

John. 

*Later edit: Apologies, I now note that the NDX,Qute and Uniti can only replay ALAC from an iPod and not natively. I had thought that these models had caught up in this respect but it appears not. However, ALAC is still playable on your Sonos or a HDX/Serve/Linn DS.

John, can you elaborate on why this is a problem?

I have my iTunes library on a Synology NAS connected to my router.  All ripping is done via my iMAC connected to the network and this seems to work without a hitch.  Ripping is done directly to the NAS, the library syncs with iPads connected to the iMAC, Sonos works fine with the library on the NAS, NDX streams from the library on the NAS.

Genuinely interested where this seems to be an issue.

Agree with John.

1. With itunes you need to check with a surprising frequency where it considers the music should be

2. If it does not find the music (e.g., NAS is down) bad things can happen

3. I personally did not find the ripping engine in itunes as good as dbpoweramp (I am re-ripping about 300 albums now....grrrrrr!)

Cheers 

Hi Jon,

Thank you very much for your detailed response, you have raised some very interesting points. What you say about AIFF vs. ALAC comes as news to me, I was under the impression that AIFF was particularly suited because it does retain the metadata. I also thought that ripping files to ALAC would be a disadvantage because Naim's NDX does not recognise that file format, so maybe not the best long term strategy? I have never converted files from one format to another but is this not an unwanted headache that should be avoided, especially if long term a Naim solution might be on the cards? I understand there are tools that allow you to batch convert more than one file at a time but what about the quality of the converted files, are they as good as an original rip in the converted format? If SQ does not suffer, is converting ALAC to another format that can be replayed by the NDX natively a gruesome process?

For now I am quite happy to stay within iTunes so running PC software on my MBP is not a route I want to go down, I don't think, too much fiddling around it seems. A Naim ripping solution would indeed be the most convenient way of doing things but I am stretched for budget and do not want to spend my money on a UnityServe at this point in time. So for the foreseeable future my MBP will be my ripping tool. I would consider using tools such as XLD or Max instead of ripping in iTunes though and plan to experiment with these to compare the results to those achieved using iTunes with error correction enabled as a ripper. Can I save XLD / Max rips in my iTunes library for replay though? Don't see why not...

The reason I am contemplating a dedicated NAS/server is because this would allow me to use my Sonos ZP90 (always on) even when my MBP is turned off. I understand that the ZP90 can pull files straight out of iTunes / of the MBP, that's how it is set up now, but for it to happen it needs to be switched on, which it isn't all the time. The idea is also to start building my music library and have it available on a dedicated NAS/server, so that when I do move to a Naim solution I have all my music ripped and ready to go. I have contemplated buying a larger HDD for the MBP and saving it all locally, however, I feel it does have the afore mentioned drawbacks, although this would clearly be the least complicated solution.

So many options, it is kind of tricky to navigate through the haze and identify the best solution when you have not tried them all yourself....

Thanks

tp 

Itunes will work with a Nas - particularly one with a decent (they do vary- some will only do MP3) DAAP server installed. Vortexbox uses forked-DAAPd - a development of the venerable Firefly Itunes server that is being actively upgraded. This is all fine until (as happens frequently) Apple updates Itunes and breaks the ability of your non-Apple itunes server. Synology produce NAS drives with a very good itunes server but Apple would prefer that you keep your Itunes library on or attached to your Mac.

Tog

I was in pretty much the same place as you before my latest changes.

I had all my music stored on the hard drive of my iMAC and had used the iMAC and iTunes to rip all my cd's in AIFF format.  The iMac was rapidly running out of hard drive space so I decided (with some trepidation!) to go down the NAS route.

After much reading I choose a Synology DS211+ plus with two 2tb drives in raid 1 configuration (backed up to a portable USB drive).  I was nervous of moving the iTunes library to the NAS as I too had heard of problems with this configuration, but the thing has worked seemlessly so far.  I think as long as your Mac is properly set up to mount the NAS on start up then there are no issues (years ago when I had a pc I tried to move my iTunes library to an external hard drive and it kept swiching back to the local drive).  If I start iTunes with the NAS in sleep mode, there is a short pause while the NAS starts up, but it has never tried to switch back to the local drive.

The synology is great, it works with Sonos, it has a built in unpn server which seems to work well with my NDX (although artwork is only supported at 100 x 100 resolution) and I have not had any problems with it in the two months since installation (touch wood).

iTunes can convert ALAC to AIFF and vice versa, as they are both lossless formats there is no loss of quality in doing this.  I had orginally ripped a few cd's to ALAC before changing to AIFF.  I batch converted these to AIFF using iTunes and also re ripped a couple in AIFF, there is no audible difference in these files as you would expect.  AIFF has full support for metadata which seems to be fully compatible with Sonos and NDX.  The only issue you may have is with album art.  I had embedded all the artwork in the AIFF files which the Sonos can see but the NDX can't.  You need to put the artwork as a jpg file into each album folder on the NAS.

Deja vu - I went through the same thought process, and hate to keep my computer on all the time.

I purchased a Lacie Network Space 2 ethernet NAS and I don't recommend it.  People seem to like the Buffalo drives. I'd also recommend getting a NAS that you can access via Ethernet for the Sonus, and USB/firewire for mass file transfer. (LaCie and other drives have USB, but it points to a separate partition that's not accessible via ethernet.) It took several attempts and 24+ hours to transfer up my 500GB iTunes library via gigabit ethernet to the NAS. Could be an issue with the LaCie, but something to keep in mind.

I've had the same issues as DQ with iTunes library on the NAS. One day its all set up, then the next day I'll rip some CDs, forget to check with library its pointing to, and I now have a proliferation of libraries.

I don't have a Sonus, but I doubt it uses the iTunes library data. A simple file directory on the NAS should be fine.

I've said it before and I'll say it again get QNAP.

It has a UPNP server 

It has an Itunes server (you store your music on the QNAP and its broadcast to all the itunes on your network, no problems with databases here)

QNAP is an excellent product, I have a basic model and I get throughput speeds ofup to 60MB/s down 20MB/s up. 

The following works very well for me:

- Ripping with MAX or RIP to FLAC

- Tagging with either TAG or a command line tool, which I wrote for myself in order to do 

  some batch tagging for large numbers of files.

- Synology NAS with built-in UPnP server, 2x 1.5TB, RAID 1

   - Backup via eSata to an Icy Box external HDD dock

   - 2x 1.5TB backup disks, one of these always stays in the office for disaster recovery

- Majik DS

- iPod touch with some apps: Chorus DS, Songbook DS, PlugPlayer. One has to try

  which of these suits one best.

- and of course a working home LAN

I don't work with iTunes, so can't comment on that.

Whatever you choose: think about your backup concept early. Mirrored disks do not count as

backup.

Kind regards,

Jochen

A lot of professional installers swear by QNAP - reviewers favour Synology - probably can't go far wrong. You can use both with Itunes but you will lose some functionality. If you are really determined to stay with Apple software and Remote use a MacMini/firewire drive with a Hailde Bridge into your Naim.

Otherwise UPnP via Nas or Vortexbox is pretty straightforward and who knows Apple/Naim may surprise us with Airplay and you still have kit you can use.

Tog

Another vote for Synology.

It has UPNP/DLNA, works with PS3 and has an Itunes-Servers (with possibility for playlists, in contrast to QNAP). In my system it's working flawless.

I am using a Mac-mini to rip CDs, and store the music on a Synology Disc-station [DS211j with two 1T hard drives in RAID 1] connected to a Time Capsule, then play the music by iTunes, via the USB-SPDIF route  by a V-link converter, into Lavry DA10. They work smoothly. I am planning to get the nDAC this year.  

Thomas

Thanks everyone for your feedback, I think I will try the VB route.

For those interested in the subject also see this thread HERE