250DR or 300 or ?

MATF - is this an extension of your other thread?  Have you established what was causing the problem? If I were you I'd move on the Croft and get a NAC 282 and power it with the 200.  But i'm not a fan of valve equipment - it can sound great but comes with an overhead.

I would not be investing in a 250 or 300 with hte Croft.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

MATF - is this an extension of your other thread?  Have you established what was causing the problem? If I were you I'd move on the Croft and get a NAC 282 and power it with the 200.  But i'm not a fan of valve equipment - it can sound great but comes with an overhead.

I would not be investing in a 250 or 300 with hte Croft.

Hi Strat,

I fixed the 200 problem mentioned in the other thread, I was going to update after a bit more playing. Basically it was a poorly soldered interconnect. I put some Neutrik plugs on the i/c I had which 'cured' the sound, and after a couple days playing in it sounds really rather good.

Before the valve stuff I actually had a 282 and a 250.2. I swapped the 282 for the Croft I have now, which for me was a much better arrangement, though of course personal taste comes in. I then went to full valve setup which was great, lovely open sound etc, but of late I've decided that I miss the dynamics of the 250. I bought the 200 on a whim but in retrospect I think I preferred what I remember of the 250; tighter grip, slightly more transparent perhaps.

So the question is whether I go to the latest 250, or perhaps an old stock 300, or any other suggestions...

latest 250 DR

I would recommend listening if possible. I know of one local chap who purchased the nap250dr when it was first released. He demoed this against the non dr 250.2. Curiosity got the better of him and he purchased a used nap300 non dr.

The nap 250dr is now for sale, in his experience the nap300 non dr was unquestionably better. Plus he actually owned both in his home and in his system.

depends what context, what source, which preamp, which speakers your friend compared 250DR to older 300. 

Personally the appeal of the newer DR regulation and 009 transistors are too compelling to go back to the older range even at very attractive discounts.

The 250DR calls less attention to itself and more to the music being played than older range (to my ears at least). Maybe your friend likes that, but for me it is always about the music first and foremost.

Also when me and a good friend compared the older NAP 250.2 to NAP 500 on some very demanding speakers, the 250. 2 was not embarrassed at all, but the 500 could clearly grip the bass a lot better. With less demanding speakers, maybe less of a gap. 

Anyway lots of different view make this forum a more interesting place.

If the price is right I would get non-DR NAP300/300PS - then get the DR upgrade (and service if needed).

The 300 is probably Naim's best "real world" combination - of performance and affordability / VFM. However I see a minimum of a 282/Supercap-DR as a pre-requisite (and of course an appropriate source). 

Chris Dolan posted:

The 300 is probably Naim's best "real world" combination - of performance and affordability / VFM. However I see a minimum of a 282/Supercap-DR as a pre-requisite (and of course an appropriate source). 

That would have to be the Nait XS, if performance vs. affordability is your yardstick. Do you really think that in the real world the majority of people listening to music would even consider spending the money required for a 282/SCDR/300, together with what you call an appropriate source, on musical replay and still talk about VFM?

Chris Dolan posted:

If the price is right I would get non-DR NAP300/300PS - then get the DR upgrade (and service if needed).

The 300 is probably Naim's best "real world" combination - of performance and affordability / VFM. 

Agreed. It marks the end of the "more of the same" upgrade path and branches out into more life like communication and musicality as opposed to impressively capable HiFi. But it is in the ear of the beholder. The 300 isn't universally admired. An audition is always  best.

totemphile posted:

Do you really think that in the real world the majority of people listening to music would even consider spending the money required for a 282/SCDR/300, together with what you call an appropriate source, on musical replay ……. 

Well I certainly think they should  - but to be fair most of the Naim users that I know have 500 systems and are thinking about Statements or SL cables  

Actually, putting "real world" in speech marks was intended to express a degree of irony in the use of that expression.

I do think though that second hand 300s are very good VFM at the moment - probably due to early DR upgrade trade-ins - if you are looking for a high quality specialist / audiophile power amp at a good price relative to its usual full cost 

money and spending power aside, there is a clear divide (to my ears) in the naim range from the regulated amps (which start at NAP 250). The unregulated amps are very good, but in terms of realism, the regulated ones just sound more real and like "live music"

analogmusic posted:

depends what context, what source, which preamp, which speakers your friend compared 250DR to older 300. 

Personally the appeal of the newer DR regulation and 009 transistors are too compelling to go back to the older range even at very attractive discounts.

The 250DR calls less attention to itself and more to the music being played than older range (to my ears at least). Maybe your friend likes that, but for me it is always about the music first and foremost.

Also when me and a good friend compared the older NAP 250.2 to NAP 500 on some very demanding speakers, the 250. 2 was not embarrassed at all, but the 500 could clearly grip the bass a lot better. With less demanding speakers, maybe less of a gap. 

Anyway lots of different view make this forum a more interesting place.

 

 

 

Analog I agree, different views makes the Forum a more interesting place!

Interesting, I just picked up a 2015 demo 250.2 with 5 year warranty, @ 4K USD.

Audiogon has an mint demo Nap 500 listed @ 19K USD,  one would suspect a 2014 Nap 500, would be marginally better than my 250.2.

But, as you say, you and your friend felt the 250.2 held it's own against a unit nearly costing 5 times of my 250.2.

Just curious, when you and your friend auditioned these amps, were they relatively newer models, not in need of servicing or recap?

Would I be right in thinking, Analogmusic, that by 'marginally' you mean what most folks might call ' a shed load' ?

Chris Dolan posted:

totemphile posted:

Do you really think that in the real world the majority of people listening to music would even consider spending the money required for a 282/SCDR/300, together with what you call an appropriate source, on musical replay ……. 

Well I certainly think they should  - but to be fair most of the Naim users that I know have 500 systems and are thinking about Statements or SL cables  

Actually, putting "real world" in speech marks was intended to express a degree of irony in the use of that expression.

I do think though that second hand 300s are very good VFM at the moment - probably due to early DR upgrade trade-ins - if you are looking for a high quality specialist / audiophile power amp at a good price relative to its usual full cost 

Not to get off topic, but had the opportunity to listen to the Statement last night, Manu from Audio Plus hosted the Siminar, Wow!!!!

Simple set up, 3 tier Naim Fraim/NDS/555PS/555PS/ and the Full Loom with Powerlines!

Played through Stereo Phile 2014 award winning speaker, Vivid GT3.

Speakers weren't bad and showed off when driven by a horsepower.

So Chris maybe you should add to your list, only 40K a pop USD!!! LOL.

I can only report what I hear. The amps were not in need of any servicing.

We also tried this test (Linn KDS/552/200 against KDS/552/500 and soon, well I myself said, forget it, don't feel like listening to the 200 anymore). Speakers are the might Sonus Faber Stradivari, cost 44,000 USD.

but the 250.2 was not sounding bad at all compared to 500, but of course the 500 is better, and the improvement is in line with the asking price, it does cost a LOT more  as you all know.

As you might recall, Richard Dane did say that 282/SC/250.2 was really a very hi end amplifier, and after this point it was into diminishing returns (you can search this for yourself on the forum), and many, many times has admonished source first, then preamp and then power amp !

He has also said he has demonstrated 552/150 and then 152/500 and the 552 with the 150 sounds better. He also added "tricky speakers or not"

No need for anyone to get touchy about this by the way.

You may also recall Mr Dane saying that the 250/300 and 500 do share many parts in common and that the 250DR is amazing value for money for what it is, that rare thing, a fully regulated amp. 

Analog, you know how Forum is, Everyone selling their gear, most chaps just poking and having fun.

 But Once Again I Agree, Remember I'm playing out of an modest System:

Cdx2/Hi Cap DR/282/250.2/200/250.2/PMS Briks/ Fraim Lite/Naim Int.

However, I feel the gap between the 250 and 500 is further reduced, when Tri Amped/Active Systems comes into play!

But if I hit the lottery, Statement here I come

Allante93 posted:

Played through Stereo Phile 2014 award winning speaker, Vivid GT3.

Vivid GIYA G3?

Maybe not 

Chris Dolan posted:

Allante93 posted:

Played through Stereo Phile 2014 award winning speaker, Vivid GT3.

Vivid GIYA G3?

Maybe not 

I agree, not the most attractive looking Speakers, But Sounded Great!!!! 

matf posted:

I have a newish pre DR 200, looking to upgrade, budget ~3k. I have a non-Naim preamp (Croft valve), vinyl and digital sources. Any thoughts on which direction I should be going in?

If you are spoiled with the Naim sound and the valve sound there is only one solution left. Have both and listen to one or the other depending on the mood you are in. IMO, you will never achieve the better qualities of valves with transistor and vice versa. 

cat345 posted:

matf posted:

I have a newish pre DR 200, looking to upgrade, budget ~3k. I have a non-Naim preamp (Croft valve), vinyl and digital sources. Any thoughts on which direction I should be going in?

If you are spoiled with the Naim sound and the valve sound there is only one solution left. Have both and listen to one or the other depending on the mood you are in. IMO, you will never achieve the better qualities of valves with transistor and vice versa. 

On Topic, very good point, and I agree 100%, a decision must be made at some point, which sound is preferred! 

matf posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

MATF - is this an extension of your other thread?  Have you established what was causing the problem? If I were you I'd move on the Croft and get a NAC 282 and power it with the 200.  But i'm not a fan of valve equipment - it can sound great but comes with an overhead.

I would not be investing in a 250 or 300 with hte Croft.

Hi Strat,

I fixed the 200 problem mentioned in the other thread, I was going to update after a bit more playing. Basically it was a poorly soldered interconnect. I put some Neutrik plugs on the i/c I had which 'cured' the sound, and after a couple days playing in it sounds really rather good.

Before the valve stuff I actually had a 282 and a 250.2. I swapped the 282 for the Croft I have now, which for me was a much better arrangement, though of course personal taste comes in. I then went to full valve setup which was great, lovely open sound etc, but of late I've decided that I miss the dynamics of the 250. I bought the 200 on a whim but in retrospect I think I preferred what I remember of the 250; tighter grip, slightly more transparent perhaps.

So the question is whether I go to the latest 250, or perhaps an old stock 300, or any other suggestions...

Good that you fixed the problem.  I can say without reservation that the 250dr is an awesome amp but if I were you I would now sit tight for a period reflect on what you have, enjoy your music and then assess your next move.  

Allante93 posted:

Chris Dolan posted:

Allante93 posted:

Played through Stereo Phile 2014 award winning speaker, Vivid GT3.

Vivid GIYA G3?

Maybe not 

I agree, not the most attractive looking Speakers, But Sounded Great!!!! 

Looks over his ipad at his pair of B1s, OMG mine don't look like monkey coffins either.  How have i lived with these for 2 years thinking the look great. (actually i prefer the look of the G2, not that i could afford either)

 I bet you drive a grey car don't you.  Like a bit of André Renew do we. Yes, i have a pigeon hole all ready made up for you ..........conservative types. Sacrebleu

I'm afraid that I have never heard of Andre Renew.

I don't a grey car - but I did test drive one recently and liked it a lot  

 I bet you drive a grey car don't you.  Like a bit of André Renew do we. Yes, i have a pigeon hole all ready made up for you ..........conservative types. Sacrebleu

 

No. Chris isn't into Andre Renew, whoever he is. Now if you'd said Andre Rieu you would have been spot on, a real favourite of Chris's. 

Wow - what great hair 

I was a bit concerned that it was going to be a re-invention of Peter Andre