NDS, SN2 and new speakers

Steinar, have you tried the UQ into slightly larger speakers. It never ceases to amaze me how it can sound partnered with my SL2s The Qute is cut from the same cloth as a Nait2 in terms of cutting through the hifi BS and getting straight to the heart of the music. After all that's what it should be about.

One thing i discovered many years ago, and is a true today as then, is that certain entry level, or basic systems/combinations can often have a fun and engaging nature that can get lost once you try to scale things up.

Hi Steinar.

I am now listening to a pair of mk2 SBL  through Supernait 1, hicap Dr (close to a SN2 probably) into entrylevel Lp12 and a Ndac-xps. I just love the sound of the system, having just downgraded from 202-200 recently. Two points; the ndac with the latest upgrade is singing right now. You could sell your Nds. There is Ine second hand in norway, i think. And the Sbl might also work well, both with uq and  Sn2. You would have a real value for money, simpelt all- Naim system.

Fred

Well you might have answered the question already.   The UQ Iota pairing is superb as is a SN Neat pairing - how about Neat Momentums?

For what it's worth I've heard many Kudos demos albeit not in my lounge on my system but I've always preferred the presentation of Neats. 

If you have room issues (and you admit you have - good, that's the first step!), then there are two things to do, first is to start fixing the issues of the bass room modes using bass traps; then look at the positioning of you main speakers.  The next step is to realise that you can't optimise a speaker for both midrange performance and for bass performance at the same position in the room.  The answer then becomes clear... separate the two and optimise them individually.

For the main speakers use a speaker optimised to give a very good midrange but which has limited bass extension.  Place these in the position to give the bast midrange performance.

Next, position a sub-woofer in the place that's optimised for the most even bass response, not exciting the room's fundamental modes unduly.  Finally to integrate the sub into the system you need to set the volume and crossover frequency.  It's best to do this using a microphone, and a system like REW; but a spectrum analyser and a sine wave generator on a tablet or phone can also be used OK.  At a push you can also do it by ear.

Unless you have a room with particularly good acoustic characteristics, this will give much better deep bass than using just a single pair speakers (which then can't be in the optimal position for bass response, or you'd completely mess up the midrange and/or imaging).

Finally sort out the room response at HF with diffusers and/or absorbers.

Hi all, thanks

There's no big bass or midrange issues. Room is measured and treatment have already started. I have worked with this for half a year. First reflections are mostly treated and have found that dampening in the speaker corners takes down flutter echo quite effectively, but have not sorted what brand to use yet. , My former Allae's did not interact that way in this room, so I suspect I have hit the wrong speakers or balance for me. Audiovector Avantgarde Arrate had also a great and sweet topend, but it lacked in the bass department. I guess it's because it was hard to adjust them stabile against the floor.

After the Hugo hype, most people in this country find an expensive streamer as NDS to be a risky buy and therefor the s/h marked is no option for me any longer. There's little to win on selling it to purchase Ndac. Second, I look for a long term source.

NDS/SN2 will be my main system, no plan to sell any further due to above. I don't want the main system to copy LR system either. I wan't all of it's advantages which LR system don't have in the same way; Scale, clarity, speed, musical, but added speakers that throw the music into the room like; here I am, look at me, enjoy me. In some way Titan's have this capabilities, but an expensive speaker like them, it should work top notch. There it (or should I say, I) failed 

Stover posted:

Recently I listened to some Focal Scala Utopia, run by Devialet 250 at a dealer. Stover

Devialet... brrr, these are the most un-musical electronics (for that price range) i have heard so far... no wonder, D class magic at work

if you ask me, there is no way in the world how a Naim fan will ever like the Devialets (except for the looks maybe)... the sound lacks the coherence and timing of the Naim gear, and also is like it has no flesh on the bones... brrr, makes me creepy only as i remember... a lot of money asked for a very poor sound. the older genereation Creek gear, or the newer generation Arcam gear, for example, is way more coherent and musical...

just my 2 cents, no offence!

people start to realise that very expensive sources are not that useful and also, that speaker choice and integration is the most important thing... i'm ready to get my popcorn and cola and watch "the evolution".

as for the bass traps for bass... if it would only ne THAT simple... i have witnessed and contributed first hand at our Naim dealer's showroom treatment... it never is that simple... nor cheap! thus at my home i preffer tunning by positioning and not by altering the structure, the walls etc...

expensive sources may not be that useful, but that does not mean that very good sources are not useful. 

Have you heard a chord Hugo yet? 

catalinmetal posted:

...
as for the bass traps for bass... if it would only ne THAT simple... i have witnessed and contributed first hand at our Naim dealer's showroom treatment... it never is that simple... nor cheap! thus at my home i preffer tunning by positioning and not by altering the structure, the walls etc...

If you've be able to treat the room resonances using speaker positioning alone, you are so very fortunate to have a large and well shaped room.  If we want good quality bass, those of us in more usual domestic settings have no option other that to use frequency selective absorption.

In my room the severe problems are from 39Hz to 120Hz and the worst peak was +30dB with the speakers in the optimal position for an even bass response.  Quelling that took both bass absorption and electronic room correction, neither were sufficient on their own.

The cost of commercial absorbers is utterly ridiculous, typically £10-20 of materials and a simple assembly being sold for £200 to £350, and also made at a size so small as to ensure that you have to buy at least 4 to make it work effectively, even in a small room.  I have 8sqm of 34Hz - 300Hz DIY absorption costing £180; so now what I need are curtains to make it all look acceptable aesthetically.

if you have serious geometrical and/or structural problems with the room, i repeat, is nor simple nor cheap!

i happen to have quite different responses in the three main positions in the living room (the 3 walls where i can place the setup) and depending on speaker, one of those 3 walls favor or disfavor the sound... it happened also that none of these main 3 positions to favor some speakers, so it was simple: i haven't choose them!

after the main position is chosen, if results are promising enough, then fine position tuning starts... i usually finish this step in one day... then cable tuning, usually signal cables first, and last power cables... but sometimes if an opportunity comes, i test a cable if i think is worth it...

i like my setup to sound as good as i can help it sound, but i am not willing to transform my own house in a showroom. i want to feel comfortable enough and not see wall or structure treatments in my living room... it's just me. if some of you like doing this, no problem, but i just don't like this idea in my own case.

in fact the Ovators sounded quite poorly on the wall i had the previous setup... i was actually on my way of putting them aside and call my dealer to skip the deal. but since they sounded very good in it's showroom, i thought that only after i have checked all the 3 main positions i can give a conclusive answer... and luckily, they sounded right on the second position.

catalinmetal posted:

if you have serious geometrical and/or structural problems with the room, i repeat, is nor simple nor cheap!

...

I agree that the commercial concerns working in this area like to make it seem very complicated, but it all boils down to simple GCSE level physics, and personally I don't find it complicated at all.

The only principles you need are: longitudinal standing waves, reflection of longitudinal progressive waves, pressure, mechanical compliance & damping and viscosity; none of these is difficult to understand!

On the other hand, trying to guess (or even work out! ) the optimal place to put speakers for both bass and midrange performance - that's hard!   Oh well, just have to use trial and error: move them around, see what happens, and hope you get it about right.

This thread was not meant for room acoustic`s. That said, to get the best from your system, in your room, you should take it seriously so I guess it`s ok then

I`m a novice in that matter, but have spent a lot of time trying to understand. In the beginning, mostly, as Huge says, by trying, listening, failing and so on. This has been useful, still it`s quite an unpredictable approach.

I then spent some money on acoustic measuring and learnt a lot from that as well. My understanding is that speakers have to be placed as optimal as possible, before measuring. If you move the speakers or replace them by some other designs, you may have to undo the whole package. Am I right?

As said, I have placed a few absorption panels at the first reflections and behind listening position. I was also recommended to place dampers in the corner, mainly to reduce flutter echo, which as I have understand is my rooms main issue.

It`s also my understanding that some speaker designs may not suit your room. For me, neither Titans nor Ovator became a long term success. Also, as long as I have good experience with other designs I find it best to start with a suited.... design 

The reason that Qute/ Iota work so great in the LR, may be they are not as revealing as the main system, demands a lot of attention to room acoustics and other "neurotic" stuff. 

So, find a speaker design that suits my room, setup and taste, then correct room acoustics within a certain degree.

Agree with Huge that acoustic treatment cost. For the corner treatment I have purchased some cheap  Rockfon plates. 

gary yeowell posted:

Steinar, have you tried the UQ into slightly larger speakers. It never ceases to amaze me how it can sound partnered with my SL2s The Qute is cut from the same cloth as a Nait2 in terms of cutting through the hifi BS and getting straight to the heart of the music. After all that's what it should be about.

I understand exactly what you mean. I cannot promise I would have done so, a little hypothetic, but if I was to start all over again, I would have ended on stuff like that 

Fred11 posted:

Hi Steinar.

I am now listening to a pair of mk2 SBL  through Supernait 1, hicap Dr (close to a SN2 probably) into entrylevel Lp12 and a Ndac-xps. I just love the sound of the system, having just downgraded from 202-200 recently. Two points; the ndac with the latest upgrade is singing right now. You could sell your Nds. There is Ine second hand in norway, i think. And the Sbl might also work well, both with uq and  Sn2. You would have a real value for money, simpelt all- Naim system.

Fred

Fred, solutions like that have come to my head several times. I want it as simple as possible. SBL`s will require some attention and the Ndac package will not bring me that amount of money.

Christopher_M posted:

Used Allaes appear to offer a solution, and should be even better than last time with a better front end. C.

This may well be an option. I may well try to get my hands on a pair.

catalinmetal posted:

Stover posted:

Recently I listened to some Focal Scala Utopia, run by Devialet 250 at a dealer. Stover

Devialet... brrr, these are the most un-musical electronics (for that price range) i have heard so far... no wonder, D class magic at work

if you ask me, there is no way in the world how a Naim fan will ever like the Devialets (except for the looks maybe)... the sound lacks the coherence and timing of the Naim gear, and also is like it has no flesh on the bones... brrr, makes me creepy only as i remember... a lot of money asked for a very poor sound. the older genereation Creek gear, or the newer generation Arcam gear, for example, is way more coherent and musical...

just my 2 cents, no offence!

Well, I never said I liked the Devialet. I`m a Naim user and as far as I know this will continue 

As said, it was a remarkable experience where presence and scale was beyond what I have heard earlier. I heard downsides also, that I have never heard in Naim systems. My thinking is that the positive qualities was mainly due to the speaker design.

This topic was not meant as a "what speaker to choose" or how to solve acoustic issues topic. It`s just fascinating how entry level systems can drag you into the music, and as my experience, it`s harder to achieve the same with a reference system. I`m optimistic about finding a suited speaker to my room and system, after all I have some experience now 

Thanks, S

OK, now I understand, apologies for previous misinterpretation.

Yes, I whole heartedly agree.  The sense of being held in the moment and mood of the music isn't at all limited to high end systems.  My SO has a 5i system that has that property in spades, just as does my XS level system.  In the rented accommodation she uses to be closer to work, she has a lowly Denon D-M39 with Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 speakers and for the price that is quite astonishing, as it also has that quality.  In each step up (Denon to 5 series to XS series) there is more information retrieved and it becomes easier to look into the detail and construction of the music, but the overall sense of the music is preserved by all three.

In my view, this isn't just a matter of one or two components, but the entire system acting together in harmony and not being let down by any one component.  If any component looses that 'musical touch' then the whole system looses out no matter how good the rest is.

I believe this is why it's easiest to get a system at about the 5 series level (including the UnitiQute2) to sing, below this there are few components that are consistently good enough.  Above this level getting the balance between each of the components sufficiently 'right' to preserve that synergy requires ever more critical selection, as components at higher level tend to be particularly good in particular ways and so can easily upset the overall balance. 

No apologize needed. I was touching acoustics in my post also.

Hi Steinar, if you ever get the opportunity to try some Naim SL2 speakers with your SN2, i can highly recommend the combination so long as you have a solid back wall to put them against. The combination retains what you are enjoying with your UQ and small speakers, as i have used that combo alongside the SN2/SL2. I am guessing they are not so easy to come by where you are...

Seconced or nSats w/sub

no doubt they deliver

I have been close to SL2 purchase twice, one of them I regret. Right finish, age and price. Therefor I always look for a cherry pair, but as you say, they don`t come up for sale very often. Allae is also an option, not given up that either. The listening room is made by concrete walls and floor, then floating wooden floor and 5cm isolation with plasterboard on the walls.

sats/ sub; Been there, done that, twice (again). n-sats are great, but sub combination`s is not for me.

I will take my time, have been unpatient earlier and been dragged into "good deals".