Roon.

Wessel posted:

Does anybody know if Naim wants to implement Roon labs into their systems. I desperate want to use Roon, but cannot use it as an endpoint with the Naim.

I do not understand what you mean by "implement Roon labs into their systems". I understand that Roon is an application that can be installed on Windows, OS X, iOS and Android. It could therefore be easily installed on a Naim server, but certainly not on a Naim DAC, streamer or  amplifier. Am I missing something obvious? Best, nbpf

I love the software from Roon. For now it's not possible to control your Naim device from your Roonapp, because Naim doesn't allow iT to be the endpoint.

nbpf posted:

Wessel posted:

Does anybody know if Naim wants to implement Roon labs into their systems. I desperate want to use Roon, but cannot use it as an endpoint with the Naim.

I do not understand what you mean by "implement Roon labs into their systems". I understand that Roon is an application that can be installed on Windows, OS X, iOS and Android. It could therefore be easily installed on a Naim server, but certainly not on a Naim DAC, streamer or  amplifier. Am I missing something obvious? Best, nbpf

Roon have recently release an SDK to allow manufacturers to implement what they call (or at least at one point called) Roon speakers.  This allows a streamer (such as Uniti or ND series) to act as the end point for a Roon system; the Roon server then plays directly to the streamer.

It would be an alternative to using a UPnP server and would have a similar server, controller (server and controller can be the same device or separate: such as server on a QNAP and an iPad as the controller) and then the Roon speaker endpoint.

Eloise posted:

nbpf posted:

Wessel posted:

Does anybody know if Naim wants to implement Roon labs into their systems. I desperate want to use Roon, but cannot use it as an endpoint with the Naim.

I do not understand what you mean by "implement Roon labs into their systems". I understand that Roon is an application that can be installed on Windows, OS X, iOS and Android. It could therefore be easily installed on a Naim server, but certainly not on a Naim DAC, streamer or  amplifier. Am I missing something obvious? Best, nbpf

Roon have recently release an SDK to allow manufacturers to implement what they call (or at least at one point called) Roon speakers.  This allows a streamer (such as Uniti or ND series) to act as the end point for a Roon system; the Roon server then plays directly to the streamer.

It would be an alternative to using a UPnP server and would have a similar server, controller (server and controller can be the same device or separate: such as server on a QNAP and an iPad as the controller) and then the Roon speaker endpoint.

All Roon are saying is that they are talking to a number of manufacturers and hope to be able to make an announcement in due course.  I'm really missing Roon since buying a SuperUniti, so am keeping my fingers firmly crossed.

Eloise posted:

Roon have recently release an SDK to allow manufacturers to implement what they call (or at least at one point called) Roon speakers.  This allows a streamer (such as Uniti or ND series) to act as the end point for a Roon system; the Roon server then plays directly to the streamer.

It would be an alternative to using a UPnP server and would have a similar server, controller (server and controller can be the same device or separate: such as server on a QNAP and an iPad as the controller) and then the Roon speaker endpoint.

Very interesting Eloise, thanks for the explanation! Does that also imply that a Roon "speaker" could run on the same machine which is running the Roon server? This would allow one to run server and speaker on a computer (or Naim server) and control them via iOS or Android controllers. It will be interesting to see how the Roon architecture fares against MPD and UPnP solutions. For the moment, I am happy to have discovered that I can access my preferred text-based MPD client (ncmpcpp) from an iPad by simply installing an SSH client in iOS! There is even one that makes the iPad screen look like the screen of an old-fashioned cathode ray tube! Best, nbpf

ChrisByrd posted:

All Roon are saying is that they are talking to a number of manufacturers and hope to be able to make an announcement in due course.  I'm really missing Roon since buying a SuperUniti, so am keeping my fingers firmly crossed.

Well Roon have definitely released the SDK to a number of manufacturers though no actual products have been launched various have confirmed they are working on it.

nbpf posted:

Very interesting Eloise, thanks for the explanation! Does that also imply that a Roon "speaker" could run on the same machine which is running the Roon server? This would allow one to run server and speaker on a computer (or Naim server) and control them via iOS or Android controllers. It will be interesting to see how the Roon architecture fares against MPD and UPnP solutions. 

Yes there are various ways Roon can connect into your system...

• most people currently are using Roon with a USB (or other directly connected) DAC with either a single machine for running both the server and the player part.  
• soon you will be able to run Roon "speaker" on a separate machine (x86 or Arm SBC such as Raspberry Pi) which you would then connect to your DAC.
• a manufacturer can choose to implement Roon "speaker" on their streamer - companies who have publicly announced their intention / interest in this include Auralic, Lumin and Aurrender that I've heard of.

There have also been some pre-announcements of pre-configured computers / server which combine ripping and the functions of Roon into a single box somewhat akin to the Naim HDX.

Roon is fantastic, I'm using it for months on my mac mini connected to DAC an contoll it via ipad or another mac. SQ is great too- you may try it for ' guess 14 days free.

I had a cursory look at the roonlabs webpage and, to be honest, I am mildly disappointed. I might be missing something, of course. But the web page appears to be pretty much geared toward impressing with slogans (experience ... like never before, transform files and streams into music collections) rather than information, let apart careful documentation. I dislike such style. I am possibly biased, but, moving around the roonlabs site, I cannot avoid thinking about Apple's rhetoric, crap iOS applications and weapons of mass brain drain. The FAQs suggest browsing criteria (browsing by decade, browsing by most played) that are unlikely to be of any use for anyone seriously interested in exploring a wide musical landscape. No thanks. From what I can see on their web page, I very much hope Naim will not go the Roon way. Of course, I would not mind if they would support Roon for those who find it useful. But I would expect this to be done via plugins that do not need to be installed by those who are not interested in it.

Jon Iverson's review of Roon  (search "Roon Stereophile") clinched it for me. I quote (my underlining):

Roon lets you set up multiple endpoints—any Roon-compatible playback device, whether it's a compatible computer or audio hardware from a Roon partnering manufacturer—in order to enjoy multiple unique music streams or zones. But the Roon license is assigned to one piece of hardware at a time, rather than to one person, so one of those endpoints must be designated as the host. You can mix Mac and Windows computers (I did), but you must make sure that whatever machine holds the license will always be running and connected—otherwise, the whole thing collapses. If you like to have your music collection with you when you travel, assigning the Roon license to a laptop may be the best choice, but bear in mind: When you and that laptop leave your network, the endpoints left at home will no longer function—unless, of course, you buy a separate subscription for at least one of them. Roon says they're thinking about how to deal with this in the future; for now, one subscription enables the working of one network at a time.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Jon Iverson's review of Roon  (search "Roon Stereophile") clinched it for me. I quote (my underlining):

... You can mix Mac and Windows computers (I did), but you must make sure that whatever machine holds the license will always be running and connected—otherwise, the whole thing collapses. ...

Apple has shown us how IT can effectively be used to make excellent hardware virtually unusable. Roon has now demonstrated how a whole music replay system can be made unusable by a smart combination of licensing schemes and proprietary software. Bravo! Wasn't there also some great software from a german car maker?

Device-pinned site licenses are a non-starter; use the cloud. Nice fail, Roon.

nbpf posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Jon Iverson's review of Roon  (search "Roon Stereophile") clinched it for me. I quote (my underlining):

... You can mix Mac and Windows computers (I did), but you must make sure that whatever machine holds the license will always be running and connected—otherwise, the whole thing collapses. ...

Roon has now demonstrated how a whole music replay system can be made unusable by a smart combination of licensing schemes and proprietary software. 

Well nothing stops you taking a copy of your music with you when you travel; and if you remove the Roon "license" your music will still work.  You just can't use Roon itself in more than one place at a time (you would have to use J.River for your travelling copy for example) which is a shame.  Something like a "temporary" licence available on your laptop which has to check back "home" or something might work in the future.

Not really sure what any of the rest of your rant had to do with anything.

As for the general concept - not sure if you ever saw Meridian's Sooloos?  Well Roon was created by the same people who originally came up with Sooloos; basically turning the original Sooloos proprietary (though PC based) hardware solution into purely software though with the possibility of integrating it into hardware players such as Naim's ND range (if Naim choose to license it).  It tries to add more information than would normally be associated with a track.  For example normally if you browse for (say) Eric Clapton, you will find all his solo pieces and (if you've been thorough with tagging) might also find things like Eric Clapton and BB King album.  Harder to find easily are things like Derek and the Dominos, Cream and the Yardbirds, let alone any tracks where he appears playing background.  Equally (as another random thought) if you want to find what Sam Brown has performed backing vocals on; this is virtually impossible with most alternative systems.

Roon also enables you to integrate Tidal's library into your own library which some people find works well.

Trying to explain Roon is very difficult, ideally you need to try it and see if its something that interests you.  The issues (for Naim users) are two fold.  First if you have a Naim streamer at the heart of your system you are out of luck unless you attach a computer or use Airplay to a AppleTV, etc. - Roon doesn't support UPnP and Naim doesn't support Roon directly.  Second many people are a little cautious about the cost and for the trial they require credit card details - this is putting some people off as is the cost generally ($120 yearly or $500 lifetime cost) for something which is basically just enhanced meta-data.

At the end of the day I'm not defending Roon, just explaining a little more about what it is...

My collection is mostly classical and a big advantage for me with Roon is the way that related tracks are automatically grouped into works (providing your metadata is half decent).  This means for example that you can play a symphony or cantata by selecting a single item, rather than up to a dozen or so individual tracks.  I know this can be done by adding GROUP tags to MinimServer, and works very well, but it would probably take me months to add the data necessary to get to the level of functionality built into Roon.  Another very powerful Roon feature is the Focus window which allows you to quickly build subsets of your library.

I agree with Eloise that you really need to try Roon to get a feel for it.  Some people don't see the point while many others take to it immediately.  A great plus to me is the responsiveness of the developers, which is why I'm cautiously hopeful about eventually being able to stream from Roon to my SuperUniti.

Is it possible with to open and browse the booklet (a .pdf file, usually) that one buys and downloads with the data (e.g. from Hyperion, Prestoclassical, etc.) on the Roon control?

ChrisByrd posted:

I agree with Eloise that you really need to try Roon to get a feel for it.  Some people don't see the point while many others take to it immediately.  A great plus to me is the responsiveness of the developers, which is why I'm cautiously hopeful about eventually being able to stream from Roon to my SuperUniti.

I see the point but I personally do not like having to learn what a product is by using it. I am not against learning by doing but I do not value products which are thrown at the market without a decent documentation. I know that exploratory software publishing is ubiquitous, in particular in Apple's universe. But I still do not like the approach. On the top of this, the server appears to be available only for OS X and Windows.

I've been using Roon for a little while now and I have to say that for my own collection and Tidal it's superb. The ease of use and reliability is on a par with with my Sonos Connect and the way it integrates and organises my own collection together with my Tidal tracks is both beautiful and dense.

I am sure that if Naim were to implement Roon, it would be a big win for it's customers.

I do have one issue with Roon and it's a big one. In order to do their deep level metadata magic they need the full track database from the streaming service, not just API access. To date only Tidal have been willing to provide this, which is a shame because from my experience Deezer Elite is a better service in almost every way.

Roon has delivered on what I hoped Apple Music would deliver, the seamless integration between my music libraries, local and cloud.

 I use Roon headless on a Mac mini, USB to an Audiophilleo 1, which converts to SPDIF into a SuperUniti.  Works great.  Also awesome for the wife factor - one remote (Roon, on iPads) combines my local music library on the Mac mini with Tidal.  She can stream to any device from Roon/MacMini as well.  So it's an easy to use, high end system when I want to listen to high quality digital on the Naim, and she can leverage AirPlay for streaming around the house (and outside) very easily - all from the same system.  Plus she can have her own 'persona' on Roon, so history, playlists, etc. can be set up by user.

I use Roon too. It is great.

nbpf posted:

I had a cursory look at the roonlabs webpage and, to be honest, I am mildly disappointed. I might be missing something, of course. But the web page appears to be pretty much geared toward impressing with slogans (experience ... like never before, transform files and streams into music collections) rather than information, let apart careful documentation. I dislike such style. I am possibly biased, but, moving around the roonlabs site, I cannot avoid thinking about Apple's rhetoric, crap iOS applications and weapons of mass brain drain. The FAQs suggest browsing criteria (browsing by decade, browsing by most played) that are unlikely to be of any use for anyone seriously interested in exploring a wide musical landscape. No thanks. From what I can see on their web page, I very much hope Naim will not go the Roon way. Of course, I would not mind if they would support Roon for those who find it useful. But I would expect this to be done via plugins that do not need to be installed by those who are not interested in it.

Naim 'going the Roon way' need hold no fears for you, as it would not affect a non-Roon user in any way. I use it to stream to my Meridian endpoints, but it doesn't get in the way of me using Sooloos if I wish. So it would be with Naim. Never have I known such an open and responsive development team on any project. Such a refreshing change. They are very 'American' and enthusiastic, but i wouldn't pre-judge the whole thing from a few superlatives that you don't like. There's no doubt that for certain reasons it was launched a little early following the separation of the development team from Meridian. However, work is underway on a more comprehensive wiki and user help facilities. They are so fast at responding to user requests that the pace of change is quite rapid. Nothing like this can suit everyone, but Naim would be wise not to ignore it I think. It's certainly not to be denigrated and denied to many others just because someone else may not like it. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Old thread I know but I just wanted to say that I too am delighted with Roon. I'm running it headless on an HP PC (Core i5 / 4GB ram) which cost less than £150 second hand which sits on  my network. Control is via iPad or MacBook Air.

At the moment playback is via a (wired) AirPort Express so somewhat naturally constrained SQ wise - but not bad at all. Pretty good in fact. This feeds the DAC in my Supernait. Eventually I will upgrade the Airport to something that can make the most of the files.

The user experience is excellent. Way better than anything I have come across before and very enjoyable. I'm discovering stuff I never knew I had and learning more about the artists along the way. Integration of Tidal is seamless.

My HDX, whilst (at present) the benchmark in my system for SQ is likely to be made redundant by Roon and consigned to ripping duties only. Perhaps Naim will add support for Roon into their products at some future point. From reading posts on their forum, Linn seem to be receptive to working with Roon (at a certain level) so potentially an option to make a move in that direction at some point in the future if Naim don't see the light.

As for the subscription pricing - well given that I have paid far more for a stylus that wears out, the lifetime membership seems quite reasonable for something that really does make it all about the music.

I really do recommend you give it a try!

Will Roon see and manage music ripped to a UnitiServe hard-disk?

If you can see it using your Mac/PC  then I see no reason why it cannot watch that folder and build its database from there. That's what I do with the HDX. But you would not want it to manage the files themselves as it would screw the US database up. So don't use the manage option when setting it up. Use watched folders. 

Thanks for the reply and your earlier post, which spurred me to take another look at Roon. I'm using a MacBookPro and Finder doesn't always see the UnitiServe. But that can be fixed (thanks Adam Z for the tip), I believe, by setting Finder to automatically mount the UnitiServe as a network share.

The MacBook will be feeding the Resonessence Labs Mirus DAC via USB, then into the 252/SC/250. The SQ comparison point will be the UnitiServe HDD + linear PSU. Should be interesting.

Jan

If you can see it as a network share then Roon will be able to watch that share. Any discs you rip will automatically show up in Roon. Never directly make amendments to any files within this share or the US/HDX will get upset. And you will too. Only use the Watched Folder facility in Roon. Do not use the Organised Folder option.