Electricity "Smart Meter" degrades audio quality?

There have been a couple of threads on this, which searching will find. No degradation of SQ here since installation of a smart meter.

I was due to have one installed last week but as our gas meter is a few meters away from our electric meter with some seriously thick stone walls between they couldn't do it due to wifi signals.  EON only install if they can do both if your a duel fuel customer. 

From what I understand they are for the supplier really not the consumer very little is gained on our part

Can't say I have noticed any difference since ours, for gas and electricity, were installed.  Can't imagine why there would be to be honest especially as I already have probably a dozen devices communicating in the house via wifi and over the mobile phone networks.  

Smart meters make it possible for an electric supplier to disconnect your electric supply without going anywhere near your house, no wonder they want everyone to have one. The use the mobile phone networks to receive and transmit data, so unless your meter is close to your system, i doubt very much they will affect the SQ, unless you get cut off of course?

I am surprised if that is the case because I changed my supplier once mine was fitted and the new supplier couldn't even get a remote reading from the smart meter

I believe smart meters will also act like Powerlines in that they will allow control of various items of equipment in your house should you allow the provider to do so, in exchange for reduced tariff rates. Basically like an interruptible tariff for larger users.

In this case I'd guess there could be the potential to cause interference on the supply.

My company used to install them on behalf of a supplier, it's just a meter with a phone connection and a processor to provide usage stats.  Perhaps they will develop as time goes on but I really can't see how they can affect sound or control anything else in the house tbh

Knipester posted:

From what I understand they are for the supplier really not the consumer very little is gained on our part

I certainly gained by having a smart gas meter.

I have a display that shows a bar graph indicating usage per hour. I noticed I was apparently using large amounts of gas over a period of a few hours a day during the day, I nagged everybody in the house to be more careful and turn the heating off when they go out, of course everybody denied being the culprit. I realised there was no culprit when the smart meter started to show large gas usage during the night.

So, I switched off all gas appliances only to discover the meter still indicated gas usage. Worried I had a gas leak, I immediately switched off the main gas valve, surprisingly this didn't stop the meter clocking up gas usage. Reason, faulty meter.

I was able to send my supplier photos of the meter display showing graphs of daily, weekly, monthly and yearly usage. They refunded a lot more than they needed too, but I wasn't arguing.

Fair enough fat cat, that's a win:win

There was a thread on the same topic earlier this month ("Smart meters"). It appears that there are different types of smart meters, and that effect on sound quality might vary. Not all of them use mobile phone technology - some use PLC.

I have only electricity, no gas in this part of Suffolk, and Eon were pestering me.. and I made enquiries with them on how it works... Smart meter uses GSM or equivalent to talk to headend.. And to the control point they were vague, but they said it was definitely not wifi .. So I concluded it probably uses modulated RF on the mains (PLA).. To me this is a no no, as almost certainly that will interfere with my radio equipment and possibly my audio equipment. On persisting more on possible interference, they gave info on health studies undertaken that any health effects should be no worse than using a GSM phone!! and also they couldn't guarantee I would not have radio interference issues, and so ithe advisor I was liaising with concluded as it was only optional it was perhaps not suitable for my circumstance... 

I have therefore kept well away, I suspect if they had installed and I had RFI issues I would be scr*wed. Anyway since the discussion with them I have heard no more.. But to be fair with Eon they were helpful and prompt coming back to my enquiry.

Simon

I'm with Simon on this. Until there is objective and independent research with a definitive answer to this question, as far as the leccy company is concerned I'm joining the awkward squad and resisting.

Interference or the degree of it will perhaps be system dependant, mine is active and can be more prone to be affected.

My understanding is that at present suppliers cannot legally force you to have a smart meter and we have a right to say NO.

I am suspicious of supplier "reassurances" that any effect from these meters is no worse than from a mobile phone. Mobile phones are a source of interference as anyone who has heard mobile signal pulses punctuating their music will concur, sometimes so loud that I feared speaker damage.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I have only electricity, no gas in this part of Suffolk, and Eon were pestering me.. and I made enquiries with them on how it works... Smart meter uses GSM or equivalent to talk to headend.. And to the control point they were vague, but they said it was definitely not wifi .. So I concluded it probably uses modulated RF on the mains (PLA).. To me this is a no no, as almost certainly that will interfere with my radio equipment and possibly my audio equipment. On persisting more on possible interference, they gave info on health studies undertaken that any health effects should be no worse than using a GSM phone!! and also they couldn't guarantee I would not have radio interference issues, and so ithe advisor I was liaising with concluded as it was only optional it was perhaps not suitable for my circumstance... 

I have therefore kept well away, I suspect if they had installed and I had RFI issues I would be scr*wed. Anyway since the discussion with them I have heard no more.. But to be fair with Eon they were helpful and prompt coming back to my enquiry.

Simon

I think I did explain this recently elsewhere in this forum.  The in-house network (known as the LAN in smart meter speak) isn't PLA. It is 2.4 GHz Zigbee, with a UK specific protocol sitting on top, the so-called GB Companion Specification. The LAN is used to interconnect the gas meter, the in-home display and the communications hub which sits with the electricity meter.  The electricity meter is hard-wired to the communications hub and there is also a read-only interface which feeds data from the system to any optional in-home control system or energy management system you may have.  This is called the Consumer Access Device.

Some homes can't use 2.4 GHz because there is too much loss for the local network to operate and these will probably be fixed by a variant of the above using 868 MHz, but this isn't available yet.  Some other homes, particularly blocks of flats where the gas meter is often in a basement may need a hard-wired solution for the LAN but this too is not yet available.

The signal gets from the communications hub back to the data centre using the Wide Area Network.  Exactly what technology this uses depends on which area of the UK you live in and whether the Communications Services Provider has coverage where you live. For the South and Central UK, the Comms Services Provider is Telefonica.  I believe they will use mainly GPRS although they are not obligated to.  In any event there is very little data to be sent, so this isn't going to be like using a normal mobile phone.

I hope this helps...

best

David

David Hendon posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I have only electricity, no gas in this part of Suffolk, and Eon were pestering me.. and I made enquiries with them on how it works... Smart meter uses GSM or equivalent to talk to headend.. And to the control point they were vague, but they said it was definitely not wifi .. So I concluded it probably uses modulated RF on the mains (PLA).. To me this is a no no, as almost certainly that will interfere with my radio equipment and possibly my audio equipment. On persisting more on possible interference, they gave info on health studies undertaken that any health effects should be no worse than using a GSM phone!! and also they couldn't guarantee I would not have radio interference issues, and so ithe advisor I was liaising with concluded as it was only optional it was perhaps not suitable for my circumstance... 

I have therefore kept well away, I suspect if they had installed and I had RFI issues I would be scr*wed. Anyway since the discussion with them I have heard no more.. But to be fair with Eon they were helpful and prompt coming back to my enquiry.

Simon

I think I did explain this recently elsewhere in this forum.  The in-house network (known as the LAN in smart meter speak) isn't PLA. It is 2.4 GHz Zigbee, with a UK specific protocol sitting on top, the so-called GB Companion Specification. The LAN is used to interconnect the gas meter, the in-home display and the communications hub which sits with the electricity meter.  The electricity meter is hard-wired to the communications hub and there is also a read-only interface which feeds data from the system to any optional in-home control system or energy management system you may have.  This is called the Consumer Access Device.

Some homes can't use 2.4 GHz because there is too much loss for the local network to operate and these will probably be fixed by a variant of the above using 868 MHz, but this isn't available yet.  Some other homes, particularly blocks of flats where the gas meter is often in a basement may need a hard-wired solution for the LAN but this too is not yet available.

The signal gets from the communications hub back to the data centre using the Wide Area Network.  Exactly what technology this uses depends on which area of the UK you live in and whether the Communications Services Provider has coverage where you live. For the South and Central UK, the Comms Services Provider is Telefonica.  I believe they will use mainly GPRS although they are not obligated to.  In any event there is very little data to be sent, so this isn't going to be like using a normal mobile phone.

I hope this helps...

best

David

Thanks David, you seem well informed on the technology do you have background in this field?

However, respectfully I'm not sure that this does help as your informative response doesn't deal with the fundamental question of whether a smart meter can impart interference or not. At the moment its speculation either way and until we know for sure, rather than run the risk, however slight of undermining my musical pleasure to benefit the supplier I prefer to refuse.

Perhaps decent HiFi manufacturers such as Naim could carry out some objective testing?

There are two things going in a smart meter. The first is the digitization of the instantaneous voltage and current. This means an analog to digital converter (ADC) ; is this converter running all the time? How much noise is the ADC injecting into the mains? Do they use audiophile ADCs? Next the meter transmits the data. In the case of the Landis-Gyr meters, this is done in millisecond pulses that add up to a total duration of less than 90 seconds per day (in Québec at least).

http://meters.hydroquebec.com/...-energy-hydro-quebec

It's the A to D conversion that has me wondering about possible side effects on the power supplied to the audio system...

 http://www.analog.com/library/...1/smart_metering.pdf

David - thanks - the advisor did not mention the meter to control point network is a ZigBee... .ok that is fine and fits in the 2.4GHz ISM as used for Wifi and as you say in Europe in the 868 MHz band. So not PLA which is my primary  concern. This will not cause an issue with audio equipment. If Eon can confirm they use a ZigBee for my installation - I do need to be careful - then I am happy to get a smart meter.

Cheers

Simon

However, respectfully I'm not sure that this does help as your informative response doesn't deal with the fundamental question of whether a smart meter can impart interference or not. At the moment its speculation either way and until we know for sure, rather than run the risk, however slight of undermining my musical pleasure to benefit the supplier I prefer to refuse.

Perhaps decent HiFi manufacturers such as Naim could carry out some objective testing?

I was really only dealing with the PLA point.  The only part connected to the mains is the communications hub and this will be immediately on the subscriber's side of the main fuse before the Consumer Unit.  This is a very low impedance point and I really doubt that anything by way of significant interference will survive on the mains there, but I don't actually know that.  The in-home display will have electronics in it, but then so do all sorts of other electronic gadgets.  I doubt that will bother us.  The gas meter will be battery powered and this battery has to last many years, so the meter will be asleep as much as possible. Again I doubt this is going to cause any issues. And the Zigbee is close alongside wifi, but not clashing with it (because if it were on exactly the same channels, the home wifi systems would probably wipe the meter system out). Naim kit is designed to live well in a wifi environment!

i imagine there has been some emc testing of the smart meter home system but I am not aware of the results.  I will try and find out next year! So I can't actually comment on the effect on SQ except to say that I really don't expect there to be one.

best

David

I don't see any benefit at all of 'smart' meters to me as consumer. There may or may not be a negative effect - unknown to me as of now, to adding a signal onto the mains. Other people who I trust of their hearing, have tried mains-signaling equipment and found a negative effect on their HiFi and removed the kit - if the 'smart' meter does this then it can't be unplugged. So in short, why do I want one? There is risk and no up-side for me, so I will keep clear of them until it becomes against the law not to have one fitted - as the way things seem to be going it may be sometime.

As there is no benefit and only unqualified risk, why would anyone want to do this?

DB.

If I understand the technology correctly, one of the advantages for the consumer is to allow locally stored or generated energy (ex., from photovoltaic panels) to be fed back into the grid. Then you get to watch your meter turn backwards.

If you do not have this, then it is not needed though. One reason I didn't install solar at my house was that I had no idea what it would do to my local supply purity - the other was that I could not equate the return on the installation cost with keeping that money and compound-interest over the period when the solar was meant to repay itself via the tariff. It never costed-in and there was also the risk the Government would just change the tariff, which they did too. 

I'll keep the ancient mains connection as it is.

DB.

DB, now photovoltaic panel, or more precisely their inverters can cause havoc with mains quality.  You can point a directional Yagi with an AM decoder at a set of solar cells on a house roof with the sun out or at least very bright with poor shielding and poor inverter (read poor SMPS in reverse) and it sounds like a right din... This is the RFI that will be polluting that house's mains.... 

Again I have kept off photovoltaic cells became of this (and am waiting for cells shaped as my roof tiles to come down in price, rather than use those ugly rectangular glass panel types), although there are quality inverters and quality shielded installations if you spec your own installation, although more expensive, would have significantly less side effects.

As nice as it would be to have solar panels on a emotional level - and i really liked the idea on that level - when I used some mind to coldly look into the cost and return on in that investment it could not stand against not doing it and keeping the money and investing it. I didn't like the answer, but it was the answer that was there. Avoiding the possible negatives of injected noise is nice, but I'd love it if the problem did not exist - but it does.

My experience has been that all switch-mode supplies, however they are contrived of hidden in devices, inject more or less problem-noise I can hear into my house mains. Some devices, found by trial and error, do seem better than others and are relatively ok - my computer on the other side of a mains filter block seems to be fine too!

Noise injected from external sources from my house seems to get attenuated enough by mains inductance not to cause problems locally, but stuff on the local house ring can cause problems. The separate HiFi circuit helps a fair bit, but not enough. When I want a good music session nothing beats turning-off all non-requred devices - it also lowers my electric bill a bit.

DB.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

If I understand the technology correctly, one of the advantages for the consumer is to allow locally stored or generated energy (ex., from photovoltaic panels) to be fed back into the grid. Then you get to watch your meter turn backwards.

That's not actually part of the UK Smart Meters programme, although if you do have photovoltaic then that is what your meter (including your Smart Meter if you have one) can do!

Some of the advantages of smart meters are in helping the householder understand their consumption and act proactively to use less of it, massively simplifying the process of switching suppliers when you want to, automatically informing the electricity network company if there is an issue with your supply (eg a lower voltage than expected) at a much greater level of discrimination and in due course probably variable tariffs responding to demand levels and signalling to big electric uses (eg electric cars) whether it's ok and/or economically sensible to charge right now.  For people on prepayment meters, it will be much easier to prepay and to see what is left (no more crawling into the cupboard under the stairs, which for older people is a hard thing to do). Also the costs of running pre-payment accounts will fall, so that pre-payment customers can have the same tariffs as credit customers. Instead of paying more as at the moment. Obviously it saves the electricity supplier money too as it's cheaper to read the meters and there will be less billing errors.

I really don't believe there will be any SQ consequences, and certainly not for kit like Naim which is properly designed.

best

David

I really don't believe there will be any SQ consequences, and certainly not for kit like Naim which is properly designed.

That may be true or not. I have found a lot of things that were supposed to be fine actually were not - and others were fine. There is just no way to be sure. Naim equipment is sensitive to some types of mains-borne noise - I wish it was not, but it is.

Some things are worth believing in, but for me this is not one them, as there is no real need for a smart meter. I do not need a box to tell me how stupid I am - I already know this and accept it. Smart meters are really aimed at giving providers more flexibility rather than consumers - but they can't say that, so they invent reasons why it is good for consumers - all in my opinion of course!

A bit like being told I really need to borrow money at some low interest rate, rather than saving-up and purchasing what I want - you are never bombarded with reasons for being sensible, just reasons to give-up what you already have.

DB.