What explains the British ear ?

hafler3o posted:

feeling_zen posted:

Ever wondered if it is more a question of why do we Brits make decent hi end stuff but our lower end is crudCases in point:...

 

I never knew Alba was British, I'm sure EVERY developed nation has a an 'Alba' lurking!

Rover crap? Landrover? Range Rover? A zillion times better than any offroaders Germany has managed (or any other country for that matter) Thattcher swept into power in a Rover P5, the poor man's Roller 

Kebabs? Scotch eggs? Lovely! But both are Scottish, as is a Cornish pastie ...

Its not that the low end stuff is cr**; its that in manufacturing we always work to lowest common denominator.  In the car manufacturing it was down to lack of investment too; a good design has to be developed to keep being a good design.  It was more by luck and lack of competition that Land Rover / Range Rover kept their lead. The original Range Rover lasted 25 years not because it was perfect, but because at the start it was so far ahead of any competition.  Even now Land Rover / Range Rover are quite unique in that they still concentrate on providing the best off road vehicle even though a large proportion of buyers take it no further than a muddy field where the farmers market is being held!

Rover itself had some good cars (IMO), let down either by bad manufacturing and cost cutting measures or by hanging onto the design too long - the last Rover design the 75 was a perfect example of that - when it came out it was legitimately targeting the low end BMW / Mercedes market; but that market wants a car design that is kept fresh not a design which is produced long after other manufacturers have moved on.  The Rover 200/400 was another example - designed in conjunction with Honda, the same car was being produced still while Honda designed two more generations of Civics.

And Kebabs and Scotch eggs may be Scottish ... but they are still also British last I checked!

Eloise posted:

And Kebabs and Scotch eggs may be Scottish ... but they are still also British last I checked!

Served with a sweet 'n' sour sauce and some chips you have created a meal fit for the the rulers of the greatest Empire to grace the planet 

Hmack posted:

Hi Frenchnaim,

I have owned quite a lot of British gear in the past, but most of the stuff that has really impressed me in recent years (with some notable exceptions) has not been British. I guess we all have our individual tastes. 

Incidentally, your name would indicate that you may be French, and your reply that you may not appreciate Anglo Saxon Rock/Blues (more my genre than pop/rock), but I have been listening to (and enjoying) quite a bit of French music recently. Then of course, I have always been a huge fan of the very lovely (and very talented) Francoise Hardy. I could listen to her voice for hours on end.

My taste in music is quite eclectic, as is my taste (it would appear) in Hi-Fi.

Hi Hmack,

The last sentence was a bit cryptic, I must admit. I don't mind Anglo-Saxon Rock/Blues at all, quite the opposite, but we have to make choices sometimes - life is short, and there's so much music. No, what I meant was that, in my view (that of an extremely ill-informed person), it may be a bit simplistic to praise Britain for the pop/rock revolution of the post-war period. My point is that the revolution (and it was a revolution) was made possible by the rise of other genres, starting perhaps at the beginning of the twentieth century, in the Anglo-Saxon world (the US, mostly). The "revolution" could only happen in an Anglo-Saxon country, as the idiom was totally foreign to the French, or the Italians, etc. The French had their "chanson populaire", which couldn't possibly evolve into the pop/rock idiom of today. Something to do with the language, possibly. Some French singers tried at the time to emulate what the British were doing (and are still trying, viz. Johnny Halliday). In my view, they failed. Fortunately, French "chanson" is still with us (so is the delightful Françoise Hardy), with the help of the Quebecquois, and the Belgians, and others. For me, Jacques Brel was the revolution of the sixties/seventies, together with Bob Dylan, the Beatles, and other giants - American, British, etc. Oh, and yes, I am French, but there isn't a French name in my family, so don't hold it against me...

Frenchnaim posted:

... Fortunately, French "chanson" is still with us (so is the delightful Françoise Hardy), with the help of the Quebecquois, and the Belgians, and others...

Do check out Edgar Bori, huge talent and excellent recordings.

Frenchnaim originally posted:

"Some French singers tried at the time to emulate what the British were doing (and are still trying, viz. Johnny Halliday). In my view, they failed."

I haven't heard enough of Johnny Halliday to comment (must check him out some more on Qobuz), but one French artist who certainly has not failed (in my opinion) is Fred Chapellier. I downloaded a couple of his albums from Qobuz some time ago after checking him out. The album "Electric Communion" in particular stands up with the recent best from his particular genre of blues based rock with more than a hint of Stevie Ray Vaughan.

I will also check out the other (more typically French) artists you mention, along with Jan-Erik's suggestion of Edgar Bori. Lots of his albums available on Tidal .

Thanks for the Tidal tip, I didn't know that Bori's work was on there. Hope it gets him some wider exposure. He was swindled by his manager and essentially had to restart from scratch. If you like his work, buy the albums !

His latest albums (Salade, Malade, Balade) are a bit derivative, lacking the spark of his earlier work. I suggest starting with the album simply called Bori. The track Cyrano is our favourite for seeing if a sound system can convey emotion. It should leave you deeply moved. On the Incontournables album, the fourth track (C'est mon métier) will teach your system a thing or two about soundstaging...

Jan-Erik,

Just listened to these two albums, and I think that my own personal favourite tracks are "Grande Vallee" and "Elle" from the first album.

This may be because I am ashamed to say that I have forgotten most of the very basic French I learned at school (a very long time ago), so the lyrics mean much less to me than the melody and 'feel' of the songs. I really do wish I had persevered with French - I would really love to be able to speak the language reasonably fluently. I've been thinking about a motorcycle trip around France (well, at least bits of it) for some time now, and I can't imagine anyone being impressed by my attempts to make myself understood when I get there.

Nice soulful albums (in a French sort of way - as they should be) if you are in a certain mood. I will listen to more of them over the next few weeks.  

What explains the British ear ?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned rugby.

 Indeed - those ears look to be made for listening to music.

Wisely, my position in my school rugby team was at full-back, and I sensibly switched to football at University before the really big boys and the rough stuff came along. My ears are relatively unscathed. 

Hmack posted

My wife, who is French, never understands how I can sit so still when listening to music, while she's dancing away in the kitchen. I tell her that I am dancing... in my head. Maybe this can be traced back to the puritanical tradition that devalues and mistrusts knowledge gathered from and experienced through the body?* Perhaps here lies part of the explanation for the British ear. We've turned inwards. Add dreary weather, a solid engineering background and curiosity to the mix and it's no surprise to find understated black boxes with magic inside.

Jan 

*(or maybe I'm just lazy)

A fun and interesting thread!  Nice job Jan (and Erik too)!

As a bonified Euro-mutt, the son of first generation Americans with Scottish, German, Russian and Ukranian parents, I do occassionally wonder why I was drawn to a British hi-fi brand. After all, there are lots of great American manufacturers, including ARC and Magnepan, both of which can be found only a few miles of where I live.  Such disloyalty!

Was it simply a desire to try something more boutique?  It certainly wasn't the import price uplifts!  Part of it was having already owning Harbeth speakers. Part of it was meeting a good dealer, who peeked my curiousity about how my speakers would mate with another British brand. Part of it was the breadth of Naim's product line, and opportunities for future upgrades. Part of it was the whole Naim/Linn flat earth legacy - what the heck was that all about? And a good sized part of it, truth be told, was the vibrancy and activity level of this forum.

Once my original Nait XS arrived, I was hook'ed (so to speak). It gave my Harbeth's a much needed kick in the butt, and set my toes a tapping!  All of a sudden, music was fun and addictive, and I wanted to go through all my old records and CDs again. And with each upgrade since, I was able to renew that initial feeling.

I enjoy reading about vintage gear and the history of audio, and there is no disputing that British inventors in general, and those from Naim specifically, have played a central role. It is fun being part of a community that appreciates this tradition of audio quality and innovation as much as this one does!

Happy Holidays to all my forum friends!

Hook

Thanks Hook (Euro-mutt : very good !). Years ago I fell hard for a Conrad-Johnson setup, but my older brother reeled me in just in time to save some serious cash. My first Naim kit was a 42.5/Snaps/140. Huge fun, but the Linn Index speakers were horrid. I sidetracked later to a Copland amp, Classé CD player and set of Magnepans. Sold the lot (save the Classé when I moved to France for two-year contract, more or less music-less. Bought a small NAD kit over there with some Totem Model 1s, but Naim kept whispering to me. Picked up an NVA AP50 (British minimalism incarnated), then a used Nait3 in Lyon, then went to listen to a Naim CD3.5, next to which the dealer had subtly warmed up a CDX. Started with the CD3.5, not too bad, then the dealer asked if I would like to hear the CDX... Game over. The CDX came back to Canada in the carry-on baggage, along with the Nait3, the NVA amp, the unsold Classé CD player and the Totems. I think X-raying the CDX at the airport improved the sound (not). This was before the iPod and lightweight portable computers. It would be so much easier now... 

J-E

... The winker next to Classé was not intentional ; it seems that a closing bracket is converted automatically to that icon. Which is the icon for 'sucks the life out of every CD I played on it' ? 

Jan-Erik,

Many thanks for the information about these songs. It must be fantastic to be fluent in more than one language. I've been listening to (and enjoying) some more Edgar Bori, and also another French artist I have come across recently. You may or may not have heard of her. Her name is Sandrine Kiberlain - I particularly like her album "Manquait Plut Qu'Sa".

Of course the French lyrics are beyond me again, so for all I know they may be totally inane even though the music and her voice sound rather beautiful.

Hmack posted:

Jan-Erik,

 

Many thanks for the information about these songs. It must be fantastic to be fluent in more than one language.
...

I'm fluent in 6 languages:  [C/C++/C#],  FORTRAN,  Pascal,  BASIC,  UML  &  80x86  .

Huge originally posted:

"I'm fluent in 5 languages:  [C/C++/C#],  FORTRAN,  Pascal,  BASIC  &  80x86 " .

Ah - maybe I'm not so talentless after all. I can add Algol and COBOL to mine - mind you still long out of practice so not so fluent any more. 

Jan-Erik posted:

"On the «Incontournables» album, track 7 is a standout (L'Étoile du Nord). «C'est comme la première neige, c'est comme la première fois, c'est comme le premier printemps...» (It's like the first snow, it's like the first time, it's like spring...). The reference to the first snowfall resonates deeply over here, even more so as we're still waiting for it. Listen for the rumble in the track about halfway through. Can you tell what it is ? "

I've just had a listen to this track and I certainly can hear a very distinct rumble just after half-way through. Is it a nearby train?

There are also some other very strange background noises throughout the track prior to the rumble. At one point I thought I had left my AV system on in the other room, went to switch it off only to find it was already off. Very strange! 

Hmack posted:

Jan-Erik,

 

Many thanks for the information about these songs. It must be fantastic to be fluent in more than one language. I've been listening to (and enjoying) some more Edgar Bori, and also another French artist I have come across recently. You may or may not have heard of her. Her name is Sandrine Kiberlain - I particularly like her album "Manquait Plut Qu'Sa".

Of course the French lyrics are beyond me again, so for all I know they may be totally inane even though the music and her voice sound rather beautiful.

Sandrine Kiberlain is one of those people who turn to music after a successful acting career. I can think of 5 or 6 actors like her - the best known, of course, being Charlotte Gainsbourg. One might add a former model to the list, of course - Ms Carla Bruni, otherwise known as Mme Sarkozy. Interestingly enough, they tend to share the same sort of style.

Hungryhalibut posted:

We have rubbish food, rubbish weather, little sense of style. We've got to do something well. 

You forgot bad teeth, warm beer and driving on the wrong side of the road.

Iconoclast posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

We have rubbish food, rubbish weather, little sense of style. We've got to do something well. 

You forgot bad teeth, warm beer and driving on the wrong side of the road.

Which Smiths song is that from? 

G

In a way I think we're fortunate here in North America to have access to so many brands from all over the world.

In France french cuisine understandably dominates the food scene. Compared to the U.S., Canada and even the UK they've just recently began opening up to ethnic fare.

The English probably view audio the way the French view food.

I live in Canada just across the border from Vermont USA. They claim to make the best maple syrup in the world. I never tried it and am in no rush to either.

GraemeH posted:

Iconoclast posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

We have rubbish food, rubbish weather, little sense of style. We've got to do something well. 

You forgot bad teeth, warm beer and driving on the wrong side of the road.

Which Smiths song is that from? 

G

 

Oh behave

Hmack posted:

Jan-Erik posted:

"On the «Incontournables» album, track 7 is a standout (L'Étoile du Nord). «C'est comme la première neige, c'est comme la première fois, c'est comme le premier printemps...» (It's like the first snow, it's like the first time, it's like spring...). The reference to the first snowfall resonates deeply over here, even more so as we're still waiting for it. Listen for the rumble in the track about halfway through. Can you tell what it is ? "

I've just had a listen to this track and I certainly can hear a very distinct rumble just after half-way through. Is it a nearby train?

There are also some other very strange background noises throughout the track prior to the rumble. At one point I thought I had left my AV system on in the other room, went to switch it off only to find it was already off. Very strange! 

It's a snow blower passing in the background... dropped into a wistful song about 'the first time'. That's Bori's sense of humour (or his way of keeping things from getting too cloying). 

Hmack posted:

Many thanks for the information about these songs. It must be fantastic to be fluent in more than one language. I've been listening to (and enjoying) some more Edgar Bori, and also another French artist I have come across recently. You may or may not have heard of her. Her name is Sandrine Kiberlain - I particularly like her album "Manquait Plut Qu'Sa".

Of course the French lyrics are beyond me again, so for all I know they may be totally inane even though the music and her voice sound rather beautiful.

Thanks, I know only one song of Sandrine Kimberlain, so I will look for the album. She's not on Tidal.

The French fluency came rather naturally. At school there were listening stations set up with cassettes of French lessons. My first meaningful exposure was when I put  the headphones on, pressed play and heard a luscious female voice say  'Bonjooour' inside my head. I melted.

Also, the French women here were always more - ah - interesting than the English. All IMHO of course.