Naim Statement issue

Mfdude - what room treatment have you got? Looks a pretty live room to me. (correct me if I'm wrong)

If you get a headache, then you know and it is not useful for anyone else to tell you you have not got one.

When listening to our systems, especially if we have a lot of investment in them and use them to relax from a stressful job, then we are more attuned to problems than when in the thick of it elsewhere. I used to have a very stressful job but successfully escaped via early retirement three years ago - but I vividly know how the sanctuary of the HiFi room needs to perform when you really need it to.

Apart from cables then then your grade of system really could use the NDS rather than NDX, as good as the latter is. The Statement is very revealing - in a good way - but the NDS is a more refined performer that may reward you more.

But this is what a Dealer should be doing for you, especially at this level. I'd also expect Naim themselves to offer-up advice if you contact them directly off-forum, as this is their premium product and they want a happy customer.

DB.

mrclick posted:

I do wonder whether this thread would be better suited for April 1st rather than Boxing Day!

That's exactly what I was going to write... A headache with a Statement? Is this a serious thread or a joke?

MDF Dude has a system that gives him a headache when he listens to it.
That system also has Naim Statement amplification in it.

From these two facts, I would deduce that either:

1. there is something wrong with the amp, or
2. its highly revealing nature is showing up issues elsewhere

The Naim dealer that installed the amp can, should and no doubt will be called upon to deal with the 1st possibility.

The second could be caused by a multitude of issues elsewhere in the system, such as:

• choice of cables (which DB has thoughtfully commented on),
• a poor electrical supply (as happened in our case before we upgraded it),
• the speakers now generating much more very low frequency output that the previous electronics could provide - so revise the speaker to floor mounting arrangements etc.
• Poor cable dressing
• limitations of the source - perhaps more with digital than analogue, though it is somewhat unlikely that an NDX will outperform a top DCS rig in this case etc.

Given the pictures that have been posted, this looks far more like request for help from someone who is passionate about music and has invested heavily in it, than from a 1st April poster with a sense of humour.

Hope this helps, if only a little.

Best regards, FT

Headache? Aspirin.

there is something wrong with the amp, or

or... the listener's ears? Sometimes I think my system is rubbish (it probably is...), but it usually sounds much better the next day. We're talking about music here, I think (?).

MDFDUDE, I noticed a JBHiFi bag in your photo, are you in Australia? I didn't think we had a system as full on down here! I am bewildered why the NDX is used when you have DCS AND Esoteric. With a system like that I'd go for better speakers, Wilson, Zellaton or Raidho and cable dress everything. You have a dream system, the mining boom has helped audio nuts, I know a bloke here who has a place chock full of Macintosh and JBL on a grand scale and he works as a fly in/out miner!

Looking at the pictures above, with the Statement in the room as well as the existing wall of stuff, there must be £300,000 to £400,000's worth of equipment. Of course for the owner it's incredibly frustrating to get a headache every time an album is played, but somehow it seems somehow slightly, sort of, somehow, a bit odd. A £150,000 amp that sounds better with an NDX than a mega complex DCS set up - nah. 

actually just had a thought. i guess its possible to enjoy the Statement so much that one ends up with a headache?? does this fly?

either way, i would have thought Naim Audio would never allow their flagship to be cast in this light, especially, as i suspect, this could be an installation issue...

anyway, hope this will be resolved satisfactorily for both sides...

actually i was about to claim that no hifi has ver caused me a headache, but just realised this is not true. i did listen to a well known high end system in Harrods a few years ago and definitely felt a headache coming... and i wasnt enjoying myself...

enjoy

ken

My Statement gave me a headache because it was too good.
I had oodles of infra-bass I had not expected or had before and it took me a while to realise what it was then solve it, so sometime more can upset things. Like when you upgrade your speakers and they have deeper more powerful bass - you need to install it with that in mind, or it can be worse.
Just buying expensive equipment does not mean instant joy - although many seem to think it must. Some set-up care is usually required - more LF bandwidth can cause problems I have found.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

My Statement gave me a headache because it was too good.
I had oodles of infra-bass I had not expected or had before and it took me a while to realise what it was then solve it, so sometime more can upset things. Like when you upgrade your speakers and they have deeper more powerful bass - you need to install it with that in mind, or it can be worse.
Just buying expensive equipment does not mean instant joy - although many seem to think it must. Some set-up care is usually required - more LF bandwidth can cause problems I have found.

DB.

Hear... hear !!! 

enjoy

ken

It has long been known that using two Naim CDP simultaneously plugged into a Naim preamp is a big no-no, as it is the CDP that sets the signal earth. I am not sure of this is also an issue with the NDX and the DCS units. The advice to have only ONE of these plugged into the preamp at a time is sage, and should be the first relatively easy adjustment made. 

More concerning is the use of separate breakers for the pre and the two power amps (am I correct in that EACH power amp also has its own dedicated breaker??). There are very few ways of more efficiently causing different earth potentials (and therefore current flow where none should exist) than using multiple breakers. When I had six monoblocks installed in an active system, I had multiple breakers and outlet sockets. The very first thing that one of the Naim guys did on a 'system tune up visit' was to yank them all out and plug them into a Wiremold power strip that went into just one of the 12 outlets I had installed. BIG improvement. 

Check with the dealer or Naim directly to find a suitable power strip that would allow the electronics to use a single wall socket. 

IME the further one moves up the pre-amp hierarchy, the LESS the 'headache factor' becomes, by virtue of having to strain less in listening through a noise floor and by much clearer reproduction. 

I too would have a big headache here.

A very complex System let down by the Speakers.   By throwing money at the Statements you now realise you have to throw money at everything else to get the most out of them .....would have been more sensible looking into a speaker system that would have got the most out of your older system .

Ron Toolsie posted:

.... The very first thing that one of the Naim guys did on a 'system tune up visit' was to yank them all out and plug them into a Wiremold power strip that went into just one of the 12 outlets I had installed. BIG improvement.

This point is very worth trying IMO. Many believe multiple individual runs to the fuse box will be best on a belief of individual mains purity for each box - but this introduces a series of large RF mains-loops between all the equipment boxes and invites-in all sorts of nastiness that otherwise would not make it into the HiFi; you must not only think of low frequencies and DC current, as RF is all pervasive and there like it or not, especially in our brave new world of gadgets and WiFi.

Try it is all I say - believe what you hear and decide if the music is better or not.

As to multiple source connections to the Pre - Statement design, unlike the other Pre-amps from Naim, totally separates the earth when you switch sources, so you should be fine. 
With the 552 Pre multiple sources does degrade the ultimate performance, but fixed with Statement, so something useful for your money!

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

This point is very worth trying IMO. Many believe multiple individual runs to the fuse box will be best on a belief of individual mains purity for each box -

i used to have multiple radial runs as well, a long time ago -- got rid of it when i went active 1st time with  52/252/SBLs as the single one, and using Grahams hydra at the time, was MUCH better. i dont know the theory as to why...

enjoy

ken

Gents,

Thanks for the suggestions. Quite a few things to try once I am back.

Yes, I am on sort of a fly in fly out situation . System is not is not in Australia though. 

Bottomline is is to get to enjoying the music again.

Why oh why did I audition my friend's 500 series based system that set me on this path ? 

Rook treatment - diffusers in in 1st & 2nd reflection points. Some bass traps at the rear corners. Couple of Realtraps at front of the room. Quad diffusers at the rear of the room.

But as a Statement customer, you've got Steve Sells and Doug Graham on speed-dial though, yeah?

Yours with the feeling there's something we're not being told,

Chris

I think nothing wrong with getting a second opinion from expert users in this forum during this holiday season while my dealer works out the official response half a world away.

MDFdude posted:

I have noticed digital sources everyone of them inevitably brought on the discomfort. Analogue sources less so but not conclusive. 

 

It could well be that digital sources have more bass than analogue ones. Or maybe you are experiencing listening fatigue that affects some people on Red Book 44.1/16bit material.

Also as fine as the NDX is, the DCS is quite a bit more expensive, so I don't expect the NDX to beat your DCS stack, it could be an indication that something in your system is not set up properly.

Maybe the statement is making you aware of it. Some people are not comfortable with digital sources, and some solutions exist for those people, one of them is a software written by Mark Levinson (the man, not the existing company) who apparently cannot stand to be in the same room with any CD player while it plays music.

It is called masterclass, and you can look it up on the Daniel Hertz Website. 

Another solution is the Chord Range of DACS, Mojo, Hugo, TT and now DAVE.

According to Rob Watts : "Now, in my opinion, high end Hi-fi sounds from very bad to absolutely awful compared to live acoustic music. The key difference in the sound is variability - live acoustic music has unbelievable variations in the perception of space, timbre, dynamics and rhythm. Additionally, each instrument sounds separate and as distinct entities. By comparison, high-end audio is severely compressed - depth of sound stage is limited to a few feet (listen to off stage effects in say Mahler first - in a concert the off stage effects sound a couple of hundred feet away but on a hi-fi it is an ambient sound a few feet away). Timbre is compressed - you don't get a really rich and smooth instrument playing at the same time as something bright. The biggest problem is the dominance effect - the loudest instrument is the one that drags your attention away - this constant see-saw of attention is the biggest reason for listening fatigue, a major problem with Hi-fi."

I am in total shock, looking at the pictures posted. I thought I was looking at a Hi Fi shop. Seriously. With that amount of kit - at what cost - and still not happy...?

Different world. I think my earlier suggestion of buying a Porsche - or a Ferrari - might suit the OP best.  Or:

1. Talk to whoever sold & supplied the Statements and get them helping you ASAP
2. Swap the cables to something Naim - SL or standard
3. Then try again - with a Beer/Wine/Whisky whatever - while checking out Porsches or Ferraris...
4. Also go to some real music concerts - to hear how it really is. HiFi is only an illusion. 
5. Do also contact Naim directly - at Statement prices, you are worth it.
6. If all that fails, sell everything and give up. Its not for you.

Wish I had a problem like this......  

IanM

I have not read all the replies, but thought I would share some personal experience with you.  About ten years ago, I had a 500 Naim system driving Martin Coltrane speakers.  I bought the entire dCS system as my digital source.  While it had all the dynamics, imaging, hi's, mid's & low's in the correct scale, etc., and it was pleasant enough to listen to for about 15 minutes or so, it too gave me a headache if I listened any longer.  Trouble is, you have very little concrete evidence to fall back on if you simply tell your dealer you get a headache from listening to the system, as they will possibly turn around and say they don't feel the same.  One of my friends speculated that there was just too much signal coming through the speakers, possibly high frequency signals brought on by the way the dCS interacts with the Naim.  I never found out the reason why, but I do know that my headaches went away when I sold the dCS and bought a CD555.  I am not suggesting that you sell your dCS.  I'm only suggesting that dCS and Naim are possibly incompatible.  The Constellation amps you have in the photo are all world class.  At this level, you will likely have to live with trade-offs whichever way you turn.  From an overall system basis, I'm reasonably confident that Statement will give you more of some things while giving up on others.  If you want Statement at its best, I reckon you ought to give an entire Naim system a chance.  IMHO, Naim equipment work best with Naim cabling, including power cables.  You might have spent a great deal on more expensive cables such as the Nordost Odins, but you will not be getting the best from your Statement with anything other than Naim cabling and a Naim source.  Its sad, but Naim seldom works better with a non-Naim component.  BTW, I suspect we share the same dealer.

Joe

A statement dealer didnt do a demo at the home of the customer?

I've heard Naim and Proac on several occasions and never been impressed but given that you enjoyed the pairing with the 500s probably not the issue.    

But I'll wager that an NDS or CD555 will transform the system.  

No doubt cabling will refine the system but I doubt solve the problem.   

jon honeyball posted:

A statement dealer didnt do a demo at the home of the customer?

 

Yeah, we saw the whole show with Graham, Unpacking, set up, even matching boxes of new 300 DR amps to go along with his NDS and Statement!

Pictures Please!!!!!!!!

I am not about to give up. Over the years the system has served its purpose well. Started 20 years ago with a NAD 302 & a pair of Canadian made Mirage speakers & a Sony 100 disc changer bought from Frank Prowse Hifi in Perth. 

So please don't get the impression I am very unhappy with my system.

This forum has already yielded some actionable items. 

I I will hear from the manufacturer see what they say

Any suggestions or observations please feel free to sound out 

By the way for the nth time - the NDX is only on loan for comparison to test my curiosity regarding compatibility of Naim components.