Naim Statement issue

Posted by Hook:

""I think the OP should fly Jon in for a consulting session! ""

Funny, that;s what I like about the Forum, Drama, and Humor! LOL.....

Sorry to hear the Statement is working for you, however if things get real bad I'd be more than happy to take it off your hands. 

My 202/200/Hi Cap combo has only ever given my wife and mother inlaw a headache.

I am reassuringly expensive.

:-)

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the advice. My dealer is waiting for my report so that he can seek advice from Naim.

Once I am back, I will submit a detailed description of the issue at hand soonest

I am not sure whether were you when I first read this post, and I am away from the forum quite sometime due to I were totally satisfied on my 500 series + ProAc Carbon Pro 8 setup. Congratulate on your purchase of Naim S1 pre/power, these certainly my dream setup which I will never afford to get them!

From my previous experienced listening at your room:

1. Too many equipment/kits at your room, to avoid those items to affect the sound reflecting points, you should try to move out all the items and keep the minimum to run the listening first, then slowly add in or remove, after all keep the best combo/setup inside the room. You can keep LP, CDs in the track to create some sound diffusing.

2. Do some treatment on your 4 walls. There were too hard, even though you add some tuning gears but helping level I guess only 20-30%. When the wall reflecting too fast and it might getting you headache. Naim's timing is good but when reflecting on the hard wall, it will faster than it should be. Your previous kits/gears were slower sounding such as Gryphon and Audio Research (if compare to Naim).

3. You already have 4 hard walls, then now add another hard floor. Even though you put carpet in front of speaker (if I not mistaken) but again the sound reflect too fast and honestly it will be hard for you and anyone to enjoy the music especially playing them loud. Some music need to play loud only we can feel the excitement. Try to do the laminate flooring.

4. My room were partition x 2 side and hard wall x 2 side + laminate flooring. Normally the room need to be half 'soft' and half 'hard'.

5. Sometime having too many good kits/gears are an issue to mix and match. It will quite confusing. For your case on NDX vs dCS Vivaldi pairing with S1, I think it is your room reflecting the frequency too aggressive so you might though NDX is better (dCS sound more agressive than Naim, Naim sound to me more laid back).

Try your room treatment first before changing/sold/buy any gears/kits. If you have time suggest you listen to my another setup (full Gryphon) at small dining area (not the proper setup HiFi room).

Happy New Year and 'may the force with you'.................

BNN,

Thanks for the tips.

Anyway, I thought I'd give a little update to these issues of mine.

With the advice of fellow forum members, I managed to pinpoint the setup issue with the Statement. The power factor correcting devices I have in system caused an increase in the bass frequencies resulting in  headache. That is my best guess. Once I removed all 6 of them, my headache is 99% gone. The 1% remnant may be placebo or maybe not but is no longer the high priority list.

Right now, I am working on the analogue rigs to optimize since the appetite for new purchase is a little stunted. For now, pretty happy with the following :

1) Thales TTT - Thales simplicity tone arm - Koetsu Blue Azule MC - Whest MC ref V

2) Avid Acutus SP - SME V - Clearaudio Stradivari V2 - ARC ref 2 SE phono

3) VPI HRX - VPI 12" Al arm - Ortofon Cadenza bronze - ARC ref 2 SE phono

Next few steps will involve :

1) remove excess equipment from room

2) some room treatment

3) solve the digital issue (will need advice from fellow forumers - start new thread)

Well done on such an incredible collection. My two bob's worth would be hire an acoustical technician who can test the room, and then tune it to remove frequency anomalies, decay and flutter echoes and all that. I reckon that may be worthwhile, otherwise considering the $$$$'s spent, build a dedicated and professionally designed room. You lucky bugger! I wouldn't mind that problem.

I still ask the question: where is the dealer in all of this?

jon honeyball posted:

I still ask the question: where is the dealer in all of this?

Yes.  

Something must be so fundamentally wrong - I've heard Statement on 3 occasions and a headache it certainly did not induce.

In fact the last time with a NDS/S1/300DR/Sopra 2s it was so sublime. 

OK, just had a little tidy up and I have removed the unhelpful (possibly troll) post and any related posts.  

Anyway, MDFDude I'm pleased that you have found what appears to have been the cause of the problem.  I guess that nothing has changed in audio, it remains true that often when you improve a component in the system for something more revealing, it can remove the masking of issues elsewhere in the system that then need addressing.

Dear Richard,

Thanks. Yes, it's a journey. Twenty years have gone by & I am still new at this.

Hmm, something seems to be happening in the right direction. I am unsure what I did but the Statement & my existing digital gear seems to be working together now. Getting good music.

Things I did :

1) Installed new bamboo diffusers in place of the styrofoam ones

2) Found my Chord Tuned Array jumpers & replaced the Shunyata ones

3) Unplugged the Sonos which had been used for breakin

Regards,

Joe Ling

MDFdude posted:

Hi there,

I just thought the 500 series electronics work so well with the ProAc that the Statement should b a no brainer upgrade. 

 

 

 

The simple truth is that the Statement series is a total departure of the "Naim" sound as you know it. The Statement, from what I heard at shows, sounds totally different from the 500 series, or any Naim equipment, so the assumption that you would automatically like it may have been a mistake because the two systems sound nothing alike.

Maybe you don't want to hear what I am about to say but could the simple answer be that maybe you just don't like the sonic qualities of the Statement system, and no amount of tweaking is going to change the fundamental sound of that equipment. Not every person who hears the Statement system will automatically like it, just because it costs one third of a million dollars. That's before you add the cost of speakers, cables, stands,  tweaks, and source equipment.

How does that old saying go? Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

that is interesting Badlands, because Steve J made the exact opposite comment, that the statement sounded like a Naim amplifier to him !

MDFdude posted:

BNN,

 

The power factor correcting devices I have in system caused an increase in the bass frequencies resulting in  headache. That is my best guess. Once I removed all 6 of them, my headache is 99% gone. The 1% remnant may be placebo or maybe not but is no longer the high priority list.

 

 

You already paid a small fortune for the statement which has a massive power supply that can handle dirty mains, and Naim amps generally do not require any kind of power correcting devices. 

MDFdude posted:

The power factor correcting devices I have in system caused an increase in the bass frequencies resulting in  headache. That is my best guess. Once I removed all 6 of them, my headache is 99% gone. The 1% remnant may be placebo or maybe not but is no longer the high priority list.

Next few steps will involve :

2) some room treatment 

Bass frequencies carry a lot of energy and it seems natural to think they are the culprit for listening fatigue. In my experience its actually upper mid range clutter and high frequency reflections that cause fatigue - they can smear the sound and cause a loss of coherence. This misinformation results in a headache for me. I'm not saying this is the case in your room but I think you're moving along the right path with room treatment. Controlling reflections can instantly settle the sound. Little doubt proper room treatment will be an improvement. That said, don't neglect the bass. Bass traps can clarify the bottom end and dramatically improve musicality.

MDFdude posted:

 

Hmm, something seems to be happening in the right direction. I am unsure what I did but the Statement & my existing digital gear seems to be working together now. Getting good music.

 

Things I did :

1) Installed new bamboo diffusers in place of the styrofoam ones

2) Found my Chord Tuned Array jumpers & replaced the Shunyata ones

3) Unplugged the Sonos which had been used for breakin

 

Regards,

Joe Ling

 

Joe,

How old is your S1 pre/power combination?  After the initial dramatic run in improvement (maybe 2-3 weeks) my S1 pre continued to improve for months after that.  Run in on Naim preamps seem to be painfully long.  Your monoblocks should be much quicker given the power demands.

badlands posted:

MDFdude posted:

Hi there,

I just thought the 500 series electronics work so well with the ProAc that the Statement should b a no brainer upgrade. 

 

 

 

The simple truth is that the Statement series is a total departure of the "Naim" sound as you know it. The Statement, from what I heard at shows, sounds totally different from the 500 series, or any Naim equipment, so the assumption that you would automatically like it may have been a mistake because the two systems sound nothing alike.

Maybe you don't want to hear what I am about to say but could the simple answer be that maybe you just don't like the sonic qualities of the Statement system, and no amount of tweaking is going to change the fundamental sound of that equipment. Not every person who hears the Statement system will automatically like it, just because it costs one third of a million dollars. That's before you add the cost of speakers, cables, stands,  tweaks, and source equipment.

How does that old saying go? Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

There's certainly some truth in that although the two are converging, plus I'm struggling to remember anyone saying that they thought Statement didn't sound good (although lots of comments on the speaker choices).

Adding Super Lumina cables to an existing reference/classic series system brings the sound closer to Statement.  Same is also true of the DRed power amps using ostensibly the same transistors as Statement. 

So I think you will find that new kit will all retain a familial sound.

analogmusic posted:

that is interesting Badlands, because Steve J made the exact opposite comment, that the statement sounded like a Naim amplifier to him !

I don't know who Steve J is, sorry, but I suggest you read the review of the Statement by Roy Gregory in The Audio Beat website, he can explain the sound differences better than I ever could.

Also, I don't think I ever said that the Statement didn't sound good, just that it may not be everybody's cup of tea.

well it isn't my cup of tea at the moment, because I can't afford it, but I suspect if I won the lottery, my first purchase would be a statement, without even having heard one 

Badlands I have read the review and in fact it specifically says

"But it only answers one side of that initial question: how does it look from a more traditional, Naim-based perspective? If we look at that from a purely sonic point of view, the answer is impressively simple: the Statements have advanced the Naim sound in every single area in which it was weak, will confound all those who have dismissed the brand in the past and have actually set new standards in certain important musical respects -- all without eroding the marque’s traditional values and capabilities. In fact, combine the advances in the traditionally weak areas with those established strengths and the whole becomes considerably and spectacularly greater than the sum of its parts."

Only skimmed the thread, but remember to keep an eye on earthing, too. The NDX has a ground switch at the back which should be set to "Chassis" if the NDX is the only source connected to the S1. As soon as you introduce other sources it's worth revisiting this setting. The effect of incorrect signal earthing can range from minor to quite pronounced depending on the system.

badlands posted:

MDFdude posted:

Hi there,

I just thought the 500 series electronics work so well with the ProAc that the Statement should b a no brainer upgrade. 

The simple truth is that the Statement series is a total departure of the "Naim" sound as you know it. The Statement, from what I heard at shows, sounds totally different from the 500 series, or any Naim equipment, so the assumption that you would automatically like it may have been a mistake because the two systems sound nothing alike.

Maybe you don't want to hear what I am.........

Naim’s Evolving Sound!

 Naim is doing what any reputable company would do, Change.

It’s a very competitive market, if Naim stayed with that upfront, boogie factor, that was so prominent in the CB & Olive era, we may very well be partaking in another Forum!

Take a look at what has transpired over the last three decades:

CB>Olive>Black Boxes, and now The Dred Black Boxes, these changes has set the stage for the New Evolving Naim Sound.

Hence, a Dred front and rear end, with The Full Loom, and one has the New Naim Sound, quite different from the CB & Olive era!

Think of it as an Hybrid between Flat Earth & Round Earth!

However, one must get there, and in the process, may turn some of us off, for example when the black boxes were introduced, some didn’t care for the laid back sound, they preferred the more forward, boogie factor that was prominent in the Olive boxes.

Perhaps, we are experiencing a balancing act, between the Black Box Era, and the new DRed Era!

Note, the New Naim Sound isn’t complete until the Full Loom is present. Hence, the introduction, or lack of IC’s, and Speaker Cable can effect SQ in many ways depending on one’s system.

But even in an Utopian Scenario, a DRed front and rear end, accompanied by the Full Loom, still ain’t a Statement!

After all, these Technologies are all trickle downed from the Statement!

I’m not one for hi fi jargon, but who can dispute, improved separation, improved imaging, Black inky darkness, Interconnects, and Speaker Cable that results in a lean and mean signal, all accompanied by The Naim PRAT!

“”Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same but get better.

Sydney J. Harris””

JMHO 

The Armchair QB!!!!!

Let's get real here folks. I one is not happy with the sound of a pre/power Naim Statement amplifier on 'day one', something is wrong with a capital R.

I think Badlands and Allante93 make very pertinent points in that the Naim sound is changing and evolving. The last few days with my freshly DR'd 500 has proved that. The 'old Naim' sonic virtues are still present and correct, but 'round earth' attributes have been added - to wholly positive effect as far as I am concerned. I guess I'm hearing trickle-down-technology results from Statement and SL cable development work.

It's a shocker isn't it? All together now - 'Burn the witch!'

John.

the current classic range boogies for me

i haven't heard CB or olive kit