New Naim's philosophy - marketing strategy - right/wrong?

Arf made a mistake - could you change it to the hi-fi corner ? Thx

Ikoun, you seem to me to have an excellent and well-balanced system.  Rather than feeling the push or urge to upgrade, I wonder whether you might to do better to fully exploit what system you have. For example,  you don't say whether the SuperCap powering your 252 is DR'ed or not. If not, that would be worthwhile.  Also, like others on here, I found that the SL cables have delivered a very surprising uplift in performance, revealing just what my Classic range of black boxes are really capable of.  The SL cables are not cheap but to my ears the improvement they brought was easily equal to if not better than some of the previous upgrades of equipment.  If you are up for trying SL cables I would start with the interconnect, then the speakers cables, and finally the DIN to XLR between your Supercap and 250DR. Your dealer ought to be willing to loan you some run-in SL cables so you can trial them in your own system.  

Mike  

Post script - I've just looked in your profile and found the answer to my question about the Supercap.  So scrub what I said on that and just read the bit about SL cables.

Mike

Yes, my system is balanced but, as you said, i had chance to home demo the Super Limina speaker cable and it seems clear that i can get that balance back once i buy them. That's the point where i find Naim unfair. Super Lumina should be like an extra, a cherry on the cake, not more. The pleasure before should be whole and complete whithout any questionning about is it good, perfect, not too bad,..etc.

I can understand that these cables have been developped with the new amplifiers but, if them destiny is to be "married" with them on all Naim amplifier like it is (was?) with NACA5, then they should be less pricey.

My point is not the price but the fact that it is damned good with them and well ok without. In a system like mine, it is difficult to digest. In a system like this, it should be a WAW all the time. Considering i respected the Naim's philosophy from wall to speaker, i tend to have this kind of opinion. And believe me, everything is done in the best way.

I agree, Naim products are expensive, and for each product it is somewhat expected that the upgrade be essential in bringing out a great sound. It is apparent from this forum that Naim market their kit KNOWING that many customers promote products here and generate a secondary market. Whilst added PSU bring benefits, I feel as though Naim are a bit like a car maker, base model is ok, but the expensive add on's make it more appropriate. It's like the add on's are the profit makers and elevate the true price of kit to what is not so attractive a proposition when compared to that same price range of products. That's business I know, but I'll say straight up if I had known my Naim kit would require so many extras to make it sing, I would have shopped elsewhere. Naim is good, but so are a multitude of other makers who produce quality sound as well.  For a DAC to require TWO 555 PSU's to really sing is ludicrous, and makes a $5K DAC a $30K!!!!! component (without cables) and that is ridiculous. I know, no one has too add on, but it's audio not mud flaps, the sound is the point.  I for one would like to see Naim use higher grade stuff and only require add on's as a top tier requirement, not a necessity for low level kit.  I appreciate the ability to upgrade, it just seems vital to achieve a respectable sound.  Anyhow, that's my two bob's worth.

Since the 1970s I have aimed to have what I consider to be the best sound for the money I could afford to spend at any one time. This fundamental necessity hasn't changed and still applies today. The difference is what money will be available and what it might be spent on, because the choice is wider than ever - which in my book is a good thing.

Best thing is not to listen to the next upgrade I think, at least until you're in the position to upgrade happily. I'm constantly wowed my by system but I know if I listened to something higher up the chain then there's risk it could leave me a bit discontented with what I already have. 

AussieSteve posted:

I agree, Naim products are expensive, and for each product it is somewhat expected that the upgrade be essential in bringing out a great sound. It is apparent from this forum that Naim market their kit KNOWING that many customers promote products here and generate a secondary market. Whilst added PSU bring benefits, I feel as though Naim are a bit like a car maker, base model is ok, but the expensive add on's make it more appropriate. It's like the add on's are the profit makers and elevate the true price of kit to what is not so attractive a proposition when compared to that same price range of products. That's business I know, but I'll say straight up if I had known my Naim kit would require so many extras to make it sing, I would have shopped elsewhere. Naim is good, but so are a multitude of other makers who produce quality sound as well.  For a DAC to require TWO 555 PSU's to really sing is ludicrous, and makes a $5K DAC a $30K!!!!! component (without cables) and that is ridiculous. I know, no one has too add on, but it's audio not mud flaps, the sound is the point.  I for one would like to see Naim use higher grade stuff and only require add on's as a top tier requirement, not a necessity for low level kit.  I appreciate the ability to upgrade, it just seems vital to achieve a respectable sound.  Anyhow, that's my two bob's worth.

I think point missed.  Naim equipment is generally excellent without the "add-ons".  Look how many people eulogise about the Unitiqute or 272/250 pairing.  Buy an upgraded PSU if you choose - otherwise stick!!

And to the OP I just can't believe that your system is unbalanced without a loom of SL.  True they will probably add a little more detail but balance surely not.  Or put another way are you saying that before SL were available we'd have all been sitting here fretting that our systems were "unbalanced". Ridiculous notion.  

Weel like this, it becomes logic to pay somehow 5K euros for an amplifier and same 5K euros for the speaker cable ? Before was nto the case to get the right balance. That's my point. DR really changed the signature more deeply than for power supplies.

Anyway, think you develop expensive cables, you can manage your product to fit flawlessly with them and you care less your core range of products - there it is . - if it is not that good nobody will do the "effort" - Well done !!!

I didn't had that feeling with the classic cable and Hiline where it was a clear difference but if you stay with the "basic" cable, you get the Naim sound and its balance. Same with power supplies, you go from Hicap to Supercap, it is the same sound but everything is better...

With Superlumina, the game is different. They change the signature and if you don't have them, you do not have the right Naim sound. You follow me ?

Ikoun posted:

With Superlumina, the game is different. They change the signature and if you don't have them, you do not have the right Naim sound. You follow me ?

Not in my view. It works just fine and sounds just fine regardless. You are head of Naim marketing and I claim my £5.

In addition, again in my view, "the Naim sound" doesn't exist. Sure Naim equipment has a well deserved reputation for being musically communicative but a certain sound? That suggests distortion or unnatural emphasis.

What is this 'Naim' sound nowadays. Since Naim have gone against their longstanding principles and released the high end SL cables the Naim signature sound has irreversibly changed. In the past when various people on here were extolling the virtues of Chord STA cables there were cries that they changed the 'Naim sound' and should be resisted. Well the improvements afforded by the new SL cables are not dissimilar to the STAs. We should have open minds now to what's on the market and what sounds best in our systems, no different to the situation with speakers. How many, even on this forum, have full Naim systems with Naim speakers?

I'm with Mayor West in that it's a good principle not to listen to any upgrades until you're in a position to afford it as it can be a slippery slope. I feel sorry for the OP that he now feels he needs to upgrade further to achieve a more balanced sound and I can see how that can happen.

Ikoun posted:

Weel like this, it becomes logic to pay somehow 5K euros for an amplifier and same 5K euros for the speaker cable ? Before was nto the case to get the right balance. That's my point. DR really changed the signature more deeply than for power supplies.

Anyway, think you develop expensive cables, you can manage your product to fit flawlessly with them and you care less your core range of products - there it is . - if it is not that good nobody will do the "effort" - Well done !!!

I didn't had that feeling with the classic cable and Hiline where it was a clear difference but if you stay with the "basic" cable, you get the Naim sound and its balance. Same with power supplies, you go from Hicap to Supercap, it is the same sound but everything is better...

With Superlumina, the game is different. They change the signature and if you don't have them, you do not have the right Naim sound. You follow me ?

I wish my customers had the same thought processes you have, I could probably afford super lumina myself then

No I don't follow you.  I have heard SL on several occasions   It is a high end cable developed as part of the Statement project. It refines the sound in my view it does not change the "signature".  Your system indeed your life is just as complete without it.   And further if I were you and really felt the need to improve things I would be inclined towards a 552 or 300 or different speakers all of which would materially improve things. 

Steve J posted:

What is this 'Naim' sound nowadays. Since Naim have gone against their longstanding principles and released the high end SL cables the Naim signature sound has irreversibly changed. In the past when various people on here were extolling the virtues of Chord STA cables there were cries that they changed the 'Naim sound' and should be resisted. Well the improvements afforded by the new SL cables are not dissimilar to the STAs. We should have open minds now to what's on the market and what sounds best in our systems, no different to the situation with speakers. How many, even on this forum, have full Naim systems with Naim speakers?

I'm with Mayor West in that it's a good principle not to listen to any upgrades until you're in a position to afford it as it can be a slippery slope. I feel sorry for the OP that he now feels he needs to upgrade further to achieve a more balanced sound and I can see how that can happen.

You beat me to it Steve, in short against long standing principles! Not to long ago I remember win heavy hitters were slumming it with Nac A5, was that not the Naim sound!

That's right Julian took the Speaker Cable out of the equation with that little piece of wire within the amp, as long as proper length was adhered to!

BTW, Richard was a date late on canceling that post! LOL.....

Surely if as a customer you try a product at home, you have the opportunity to hear if it integrates with the rest of the system, or as is suggested, throws off the balance. This forum tends to promote the newer is always better ethos, which may be true in some circumstances, but cannot be seen as a given, and is only borne out with home demonstration, (preferrably extended). 

My point exactly Gary. Extended home demo is a must wherever possible. It sometimes takes a while to become accustomed to a change in SQ with a new piece of kit and important to live with it, then switch back to the 'old' cable/amp etc, only then can you be objective of the change.

Ikoun posted:

With Superlumina, the game is different. They change the signature and if you don't have them, you do not have the right Naim sound. You follow me ?

if you reworded that to "with SL, the performance of Naim system goes to a highly enhanced level of musicality and involvement" then i would agree with you. SL is game changer in this respect. But the "signature" is the same in my view, whatever we mean by "signature".

i have experienced the SL effect with my recent upgrade of the snaxo 4-4 cable to SL. after run-in, this sounds so fundamentally and emphatically better that it got me feeling a bit 'anxious' (unjustifiably so)  and questioning what i may be missing with my other non-SL cables (speaker and XLR). But this is just the well known  "upgraditis" syndrome we have been suffering from for a long time, though this time, i must admit it is much more severe. Fortunately, the bank account is a very effective constraint - just as well, else i would be ordering 4 lengths of SL speaker cable and 6 of DIN-XLRs!!!  

Sigh....

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

IMO Naim don't have a particular "house" sound, to me they are neutral.  It may be they have more grunt & dynamics - dare I mention PRaT - than some other amps & maybe that is interpreted as the Naim sound.    They are typically dead flat within the audio band & if such distortion or unnatural emphasis did make a Naim "sound",  I don't see it.  

 

Yes and no Mike. The Naim 'sound' is always bandied about on this forum and it did have a sonic signature that attracted us Naim in the first place.  I agree that the main attraction of the sound was PRaT which seemed lacking to me in other systems, for me, and is the element of the sound quality I listen for when assessing a new piece of kit. A longstanding repost to people who tried different manufactures cables etc in the past was that the change in sound was 'more hifi and less music (PRaT?)'. This is an argument that could now be angled back at Naim with the new cables, for some. As for distortion there is a definite hash present with NACA5 very noticeable when switching with SL speaker cables, but I know a couple of people who felt that the NACA5 had more PRaT than the SL cable and stuck with it.

There are some interesting issues raised in Ikoun's posts, which seem to be more about psychological aspects of Naim ownership than anything about whether there is a 'house sound' or not. Previously the system was 'complete' with A5, and other cables were there simply as options for experimentation. With the SL cables a view could be taken that because they are made by Naim, the system is incomplete without them, and that they are 'needed' in order to hear the true potential of one's black boxes. The same thing happened with the Powerline ('what, £500 for a mains wire, you've got to be joking') and now it's happening again, but at a much higher price. 

While these cables will surely be a nice income stream for Naim, they are certainly not being marketed in a cynical way: they are simply there as options. I suspect Naim are pleasantly surprised to see people with middling systems using them. 

Sounds to me more like a case of "the grass is always greener" mixed with upgrade-itis. Yes Naim have evolved but power supply upgrades and so forth have been around for ages to offer an upgrade path with what you already own. I know what the upgrade bug feels like. It feels like a voice telling you that what you have isn't the optimum configuration. But the truth remains a UQ2, Nait, 202 bare into a 200 do sound fantastic. When you've got money burning a hole in your pocket it is easy to justify all sorts of "problems" with your current setup in order to buy something new. That's probably 20% marketing, 60% own psychology, and another 20% from reading comments on this forum that make you think your system has problems it doesn't.

what irks me is the pricing of Naim interconnects that makes me balk at purchasing a Hicap for instance because i can't accept paying for one more Snaic which should in fact have been provided in pairs for the device.

Sharik,

just how many SNAICs do you think would be most appropriate to come with a Hicap?

The Hicap comes with a SNAIC5, because whatever you do with the Hicap, it will always 100% of the time need a SNAIC5 - ergo, including one makes sense.  To not include one might be considered mean or even a bit "sharp" because everyone will need one.  But here's the thing, they'll only ever need one SNAIC5 with the Hicap, there's never any need for another.

Should Naim also throw in a SNAIC4 perhaps?  Well, a small percentage of users may find this useful, if they happen to be using the Hicap on an Integrated amp such as a Supernait, but then the vast majority will end up effectively paying for a SNAIC they don't need, which is really unfair.

sharik posted:

 

what irks me is the pricing of Naim interconnects that makes me balk at purchasing a Hicap for instance because i can't accept paying for one more Snaic which should in fact have been provided in pairs for the device.

 

Probably the majority of Hicap users have a separate power amp, which comes with the necessary 4 pin din lead. It's only when using an integrated that you need to buy the lead. Including it would increase the price of the Hicap for something that most people have no need of, because they have it already. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

There are some interesting issues raised in Ikoun's posts, which seem to be more about psychological aspects of Naim ownership than anything about whether there is a 'house sound' or not. Previously the system was 'complete' with A5, and other cables were there simply as options for experimentation. With the SL cables a view could be taken that because they are made by Naim, the system is incomplete without them, and that they are 'needed' in order to hear the true potential of one's black boxes. The same thing happened with the Powerline ('what, £500 for a mains wire, you've got to be joking') and now it's happening again, but at a much higher price. 

While these cables will surely be a nice income stream for Naim, they are certainly not being marketed in a cynical way: they are simply there as options. I suspect Naim are pleasantly surprised to see people with middling systems using them. 

This is what I meant to say!