New Naim's philosophy - marketing strategy - right/wrong?

Hungryhalibut posted:

There are some interesting issues raised in Ikoun's posts, which seem to be more about psychological aspects of Naim ownership than anything about whether there is a 'house sound' or not.

You may have right and i should not have posted.

Cheers everybody

Richard Dane posted:

Should Naim also throw in a SNAIC4 perhaps?  Well, a small percentage of users may find this useful,

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's only when using an integrated that you need to buy the lead.

exactly my case. Snaics being sold at such a price is also what amazes me.

sharik posted:

 

what irks me is the pricing of Naim interconnects that makes me balk at purchasing a Hicap for instance because i can't accept paying for one more Snaic which should in fact have been provided in pairs for the device.

 

Additional price of Snaic is small price to pay for enjoying music like this.

Buy a second hand one on the well known auction site, if buying new price is an issue

ken c posted:

Ikoun posted:

With Superlumina, the game is different. They change the signature and if you don't have them, you do not have the right Naim sound. You follow me ?

if you reworded that to "with SL, the performance of Naim system goes to a highly enhanced level of musicality and involvement" then i would agree with you. SL is game changer in this respect. But the "signature" is the same in my view, whatever we mean by "signature".

i have experienced the SL effect with my recent upgrade of the snaxo 4-4 cable to SL. after run-in, this sounds so fundamentally and emphatically better that it got me feeling a bit 'anxious' (unjustifiably so)  and questioning what i may be missing with my other non-SL cables (speaker and XLR). But this is just the well known  "upgraditis" syndrome we have been suffering from for a long time, though this time, i must admit it is much more severe. Fortunately, the bank account is a very effective constraint - just as well, else i would be ordering 4 lengths of SL speaker cable and 6 of DIN-XLRs!!!  

Sigh....

enjoy

ken

6 DIN-XLRs?  What will you use the spare two for then, Ken?

I think the DRed amps (well, the 300 at least) does move the sound more towards the Statement power amp sound which is quite different from previous models.  I felt the same with the SL upgrade but in that case you're probably hearing the cable changes at work rather than Statement itself.

If there is such a thing as a "Naim house sound" then we probably shouldn't be surprised if it has moved away from what it was traditionally.  Isn't that the trickle down effect we're hearing through Statement and what everyone had hoped for.

In reality I expect their "house sound" is simply to make said component sound as good as they possibly can.

Hungryhalibut posted:

There are some interesting issues raised in Ikoun's posts, which seem to be more about psychological aspects of Naim ownership than anything about whether there is a 'house sound' or not. Previously the system was 'complete' with A5, and other cables were there simply as options for experimentation. With the SL cables a view could be taken that because they are made by Naim, the system is incomplete without them, and that they are 'needed' in order to hear the true potential of one's black boxes. The same thing happened with the Powerline ('what, £500 for a mains wire, you've got to be joking') and now it's happening again, but at a much higher price. 

While these cables will surely be a nice income stream for Naim, they are certainly not being marketed in a cynical way: they are simply there as options. I suspect Naim are pleasantly surprised to see people with middling systems using them. 

Agree with the second paragraph.  I'd rather have options and choose whether to proceed or not, than having no options at all while remaining within Naim brand.

Quite  a "heavy" thread to read through so what I have to say might have been said already, or as is often the case the thread has drifted away from the OP.

The OP made TWO changes - NAS Firmware and 250DR. These altered his "balanced" sound in that the upper frequencies became more detailed. In order to restore the balance he has found that SL cables will do the job - but at a price !!

I have had Naim/Linn for 40 years and this has nearly always been the case. It's nothing new. It has sometimes taken ages to find the right combination of "upgrades" to achieve BOTH an improved sound AND retain the overall balance/musicality.

In another thread, Graham has outlined why he doesn't intend to go ahead with a second 555PS - it upsets the balance by making it "splashy". DB considers that sort of change to be "good". Subjectiveness plays an important role !

To the OP, relax. Naim haven't changed their marketing. Nor are they trying to force people up the Naim Ladder. It takes time and effort (and usually loads of £££ to make really good improvements. And it always has done !

I thought I'd save all the smilies until the end...........

Graham Clarke posted:

6 DIN-XLRs?  What will you use the spare two for then, Ken?

I think the DRed amps (well, the 300 at least) does move the sound more towards the Statement power amp sound which is quite different from previous models.  I felt the same with the SL upgrade but in that case you're probably hearing the cable changes at work rather than Statement itself.

If there is such a thing as a "Naim house sound" then we probably shouldn't be surprised if it has moved away from what it was traditionally.  Isn't that the trickle down effect we're hearing through Statement and what everyone had hoped for.

In reality I expect their "house sound" is simply to make said component sound as good as they possibly can.

i'm just being greedy Graham.

interesting that you think the DRd amps move the sound towards Statement -- suppose that is not too surprising with the power transistor upgrade which is part of this upgrade. and that the SL cables have quite a separate effect.

interesting times ahead -- means there are now many more upgrade options to naim systems that before.  and there will always be 2nd hand non-DR amps for those who prefer them -- and the NACA5 (which is what i have been using or looong time) will contginue to be be made by Naim. Choice is a good thing in my view...

enjoy

ken

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite  a "heavy" thread to read through so what I have to say might have been said already, or as is often the case the thread has drifted away from the OP.

The OP made TWO changes - NAS Firmware and 250DR. These altered his "balanced" sound in that the upper frequencies became more detailed. In order to restore the balance he has found that SL cables will do the job - but at a price !!

I have had Naim/Linn for 40 years and this has nearly always been the case. It's nothing new. It has sometimes taken ages to find the right combination of "upgrades" to achieve BOTH an improved sound AND retain the overall balance/musicality.

In another thread, Graham has outlined why he doesn't intend to go ahead with a second 555PS - it upsets the balance by making it "splashy". DB considers that sort of change to be "good". Subjectiveness plays an important role !

To the OP, relax. Naim haven't changed their marketing. Nor are they trying to force people up the Naim Ladder. It takes time and effort (and usually loads of ££&pound to make really good improvements. And it always has done !

I thought I'd save all the smilies until the end...........

good summary Don...

but i dont think DB said he considers 'splashy' trebe to be "good". rather, i believe DB seems to think there is somethng wrong with Graham's installation!! but i dont want to re-open that one...

enjoy

ken

Some people decide to "what will be in the pipe" to "what stays at developpement state" - Thank you for all your replies.

@Don Atkinson : Thank you for your optimism !!

Cheers

Ikoun posted:

Some people decide to "what will be in the pipe" to "what stays at developpement state" - Thank you for all your replies.

@Don Atkinson : Thank you for your optimism !!

Cheers

Ikoun, you're welcome.

I appreciate that the NAS firmware type of upgrade might be difficult to audition in the home before committing to a purchase. It was very similar in "the old days" when considering a new cartridge for example. Easy enough to audition at the dealer's shop, but not so easy to get a two-week home dem !! Was the Karma better than the Troika ? Was the Arkiv better than the Troika and the Karma etc etc For sure, they changed the "balance" of the sound. So did the Itok and the Ekos. The list goes on..............

ken c posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite  a "heavy" thread to read through so what I have to say might have been said already, or as is often the case the thread has drifted away from the OP.

The OP made TWO changes - NAS Firmware and 250DR. These altered his "balanced" sound in that the upper frequencies became more detailed. In order to restore the balance he has found that SL cables will do the job - but at a price !!

I have had Naim/Linn for 40 years and this has nearly always been the case. It's nothing new. It has sometimes taken ages to find the right combination of "upgrades" to achieve BOTH an improved sound AND retain the overall balance/musicality.

In another thread, Graham has outlined why he doesn't intend to go ahead with a second 555PS - it upsets the balance by making it "splashy". DB considers that sort of change to be "good". Subjectiveness plays an important role !

To the OP, relax. Naim haven't changed their marketing. Nor are they trying to force people up the Naim Ladder. It takes time and effort (and usually loads of ££&pound to make really good improvements. And it always has done !

I thought I'd save all the smilies until the end...........

good summary Don...

but i dont think DB said he considers 'splashy' trebe to be "good". rather, i believe DB seems to think there is somethng wrong with Graham's installation!! but i dont want to re-open that one...

enjoy

ken

I knew I would likely upset somebody with a mis-quote or mis-understanding..........

.............just as well there is someone around with sharp senses to keep law and order...

Don Atkinson posted:

.............just as well there is someone around with sharp senses to keep law and order...

... please tell my daughter that -- she believes i am well 'past it'... youth of today, heh!?

enjoy

ken

analogmusic posted:

Additional price of Snaic is small price to pay for enjoying music like this.

the thing is, i can do without a Hicap just fine and am happy with my Supernait as it is, so a possible upgrade would be for me just to indulge myself a bit, which gets spoiled by the need to buy a Snaic 4din, regrettably.

Sharik,

just think; with a standard Hicap (inc. SNAIC5) you're getting a £165 discount on the price of one that comes with both SNAIC5 and a SNAIC4...

Ikoun posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

There are some interesting issues raised in Ikoun's posts, which seem to be more about psychological aspects of Naim ownership than anything about whether there is a 'house sound' or not.

You may have right and i should not have posted.

Cheers everybody

Please don't take my post as criticism - none whatsoever was intended. It's just an observation. 

It's good to have a thread that gets people thinking - so much better than 'I've sold all my Naim' or 'which socket on my flatcap should I use'. 

Richard Dane posted:

Sharik,

just think; with a standard Hicap (inc. SNAIC5) you're getting a £165 discount on the price of one that comes with both SNAIC5 and a SNAIC4...

Brilliant, Just what I needed.

Where can I buy that HiCap with both snakes in the box. That's the version I've been waiting for and at only £165 extra, it seems like a bargain.......

Hungryhalibut posted:

Ikoun posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

There are some interesting issues raised in Ikoun's posts, which seem to be more about psychological aspects of Naim ownership than anything about whether there is a 'house sound' or not.

You may have right and i should not have posted.

Cheers everybody

Please don't take my post as criticism - none whatsoever was intended. It's just an observation. 

It's good to have a thread that gets people thinking - so much better than 'I've sold all my Naim' or 'which socket on my flatcap should I use'. 

I am not offended, don't worry, but you point out another "explanation" which can be as valid as my arguments. As i said, i am not disappointed with my system. I just try to think about what's going on and the way i feel it.
If there is a change with the DR technology yes and definitely through the amplifiers. Were the SL developped with them, i would say yes.

In other words, my thought is : could it be a compromise more "elegant" for those who don't have the SL ? The version decided for firmware could be more tolerant in the render than so optimised for SL cables ? I try to take my system as a complete music box where each parts has its role and influence - i think everybody would follow me on this point.

I also optimised the source for the NDS. I have a technical local where sit a 8 bays Qnap NAS with a powerline on it, same for the switch, highend Netgear powerlined too and all "cabled" with audioquest cinamon. For the rest i am all Naim in ;-)

On my subjective taste (because you are right, there is a "large" part of subjectivness, i didn't like the upper line "Vodka" on audioquest, i found them making too much. And even if many likes a sound "opened", i concentrate my feeling and taste on the medium.

Anyway, my system is highly musical and i have the luck to have a great threatened room too. I just share my thinking and see if i am alone or not, nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers

Ok, Naim clearly stated that the SL technology was designed with the Statement in mind, and also comfortable with the 500 and classic series, as well.

Marketing strategy makes sense, If someone can afford a 500, or 3 500's perhaps they can afford to partake in our SL technology.

Classic series, same argument with respect to the 300 amps. Now what about the gents on the lower end of the classic spectrum, that's right entry level.

Dred front and rear end, can they partake in this SL technology! Let's take a look at an proposed entry level System excluding source.

SC DR / 282 / 250 DR / roughly 25K USD

Statement 3 x 90K / roughly 270K USD

Wow, that's surpasses a 10:1 ratio.

From a Marketing perspective, Naim has more than met their goal.

Is that wrong, I think not!

Business as usual!

So DR is taking me closer to Statement - OMG how am I going to live with that??!!

Ikoun - regarding the firmware, it's not optimised to sound best with SL cables - it's simply written to sound as good as it can. I'm part of the beta team and we do notice differences as the firmware changes. If you take your NDS as an example it may be used with anything from a Nait to a Stement, as well as amps from other companies, not to mention hundreds of different cable options. So having different versions for different systems would be impossible. 

The SL cables were developed alongside the Statement, so it follows that the cables go well with the new DR amps, which contain the 009 transistors as well as the discrete regulation. 

That said, I see no reason why SL cables wouldn't work as well with non DR equipment, just as the DR amps don't need SL to sound balanced. 

Allante - I like your idea that a 282, Supercap, 250 is entry level. I'd be thinking more of a Qute or a Nait. 

I've not heard of anyone using SL cables with a Qute, but there are certainly people using the SL speaker cables with a 272/250DR to very good effect. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So DR is taking me closer to Statement - OMG how am I going to live with that??!!

Yep, the 300DR's presentation is more Statement like than Classic/Reference like. I wouldn't claim to be an expert however I have heard the Statement pre/power combo 10+ times with many of these in a decent demo room, not just at shows so have some recall of the sound.

Simple solution if you can't live with that : buy Statement 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So DR is taking me closer to Statement - OMG how am I going to live with that??!!

Mind you Strat, we're on the lower end of the Spectrum!

Posted on Naim's site by Naim:

"With this in mind they began a development project to design interconnects and speaker cable that would meet Statement standards of performance. Through a deep understanding of material science and after thousands of hours testing in the listening room, the Super Luminarange was born.

Designed to maximise the performance of Statementbut equally at home in 500 Series and Classic Series systems, Super Lumina speaker cables are available with 4mm or spade connectors."

I think the entry level classic amp is 200 DR, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's Discrete Regulation is not quite the same as the 250 DR! Does'nt quite have the Inky Darkness LOL...... 

Inky blackness - will you never learn!?

Note, that was clearly my Interpretation of Naim's Marketing Strategy, the 10:1 Ratio is not my opinion, or thoughts, just facts and numbers. I will comment on the philosophical approach after we have digested the Market approach! 

Mind you this very Forum is an Marketing ploy, which is worth its weight in gold!!!!!