new year's goodies - mixing NDX+XS2 into 172/200DR/S400

Posted by: catalinmetal on 04 January 2016

hello everybody and a happy new year from Bucharest!

this turning of year brought me some extended listening session with 2 (already) classic Naim products: the NDX and the Nait XS2.

as some of you know, (and is stated into the title of the thread) my own setup consists in 172+200DR+OvatorS400 speakers, with Naca5 cable and Fraim lite.

for starters, i thought to give the NDX and XS2 a short warm-up before getting to some real comparisons and mixes, and i immediately noticed the following (NDX+XS2 vs my own 172/200DR):

- superior step in refinement and resolution: seems the NDX punches way-way above the streamer + DAC existing into 172, and after all, it is no wonder! i enjoyed the textures of the instruments and voices, and particularly the acoustic guitars sounded really really wonderful.

- the whole tonal balance was getting a few degrees warmer. on some albums, this was a treat.

- the sound was slightly fatter/rounder. at this stage, i could not really tell if this is dued more to NDX or XS2.

- the bass control was slightly lacking, even though there was more bass, it was less controlled, not damagingly uncontrolled but anyway, easily spottable

- better separation at "crowded" passages, like on heavy metal records. easily to put the blame into limited capabilities of the DAC inside 172

after days passed, i could make the following mixed combos:

1. NDX+XS2+ chord power cables

2. NDX+PS audio AC12 power cable + XS2+ chord power cable

3. NDX+AC12+XS2(as preamp)+chord+NAP200DR+chord

4. NDX+AC12+172(as preamp)+chord+NAP200DR+chord

5. 172(full)+chord+NAP200DR+chord

6.+7. NDX+XS2(or172) as pre+ 200DR with PS audio AC12 at preamp level

8. NDX+chord+XS2 as pre+chord+NAP200DR+AC12

some short descrition of the most important differences:

- AC12 power chord seems to have similar effect at all 3 levels, (albeit with slight different amplitudes), it does increase the resolution and precision, and somehow "purifies" the sound making ot "cleaner" or more free of distorsions, BUT, with slight loss of musical flow, not great but easy to sense...

- swapping back and forth from 2 to 3, the 200DR revealed a bigger and more dynamic sound stage, better resolution, BUT, the power amp section of the XS2 is admittedly, more "friendly" , has a rounder/warmer sound, and is more forgiving to bad records, and it has a ease of musical feel that actually made one of my friends visiting to prefer the setup without the added 200DR. i wound say that if performance and neutrality is desired, then the added 200DR makes the thing, if just sheer musicality, the XS2 is a good and fluent performer in itself.

-swapping back/forth from 3 to 4, more tricky comparison, since i think the performance in itself was rather in the same ballpark, but with a slight different character: the XS2 preamp is like it's power amp, rounder in presentation, and has a slight superior musical fluence, while the 172 (as preamp) tends to be more precise, more on the spot, and while feels more solid, is also slightly more inexpresive compared to XS2 preamp. in the end, i preffered the XS2 preamp to 172 preamp, but on sole ground that i found it more pleasant... i will retry this test in the following days, see how it gets...

- from 4 to 5, it was obvious that streamer+DAC inside NDX is way superior to the ones in 172... here no doubts about... does it worth the extra cash? if you have it, it probably does. i am very fussy with sources and the NDX wound have been for a while my companion if i could afford it in a setup that would do it justice (FWIW i think that - let's say a 152/200DR/s400 really starts to bring the goodies out of NDX, since no 152 in this session, a XS2 as preamp will do in the following days)

- probably the best so far combo, to my taste, was no 3... since i will have the NDX and XS2 for the next few days at home i will probably make further comparisons, since i really enjoy having as many Naims in house as possible and swapping between them

- i cound not compare the streamer sections of NDX and 172 since the 172 has no digital out... i haven't compared strictly the DAC sections of NDX and 172, since i do not have at home a BNC to RCA adapter, nor a coax BNC digital cable... but i don't expect weird results on this one, the superiority of the NDX comes from it's better DAC, no doubt.

- also tried some PCM 24/96 files vs the same recording in DSD64... to me the differences are rather of colouration, and not only performance wise... like the DSD record was slightly "sweetened" to make it sound rounder and nicer... after all, most of market's DAC are multibit, so no one really offers pure DSD decoding (which will really assume a 1 bit DAC, or rather, a filter, as also no pure DSD encoding of mixed material actually exists (all mixes are done in high rate PCM, and then back to DSD). we can encounter however pure DSD recordings if some analogue recordings are transferred "as is" onto DSD format. if a mixing stage is involved though, at least one high rate PCM conversion is needed. (so DSD is - for now - rather a gismo to me, we will see in the future how it fairs)

that's it for now, more goodies in the following days! since i will keep the "things" for a few more days...

Posted on: 04 January 2016 by Singlespeed

Interesting read thanks - keep us posted on further thoughts Mr Metal

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by Adam Zielinski

New Year greetings from Warsaw

Interesting read - I think you've just found that your 172 is becoming obsolete
I can see two choices ahead:

N272 with your 200 + XPS2 - makes NDX redundant
202 or 282 for your 200 and then NDX with XPS2

Regardless - enjoy the music!

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by ChrisSU

I would sell the Nait and 172 and get a preamp - 202 or 282. As your 200 is a DR, this will still perform well, even without a Hicap.

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by catalinmetal

Adam, the experiments conducted were not for the purpose of changing gear, but mainly for fun, and test some DSD files, of which 172 is not capable...

as for XPS, there has to be a very i mean VERY good PSU for me to ever spend money on it. i generally felt that external PSUs in Naim range do not have the correct VFM for my own pocket...

yes, 272 would be a choice, for the future, i have to test it at home though, with the S400... those are the most relevant experiments, in my own home... i had at home a 272 once, together with a 172 and 155, and i could compare the 2, but at that time, i had different speakers...

the thing is, while at first i was ready to ditch the 200DR, being "mesmerised" by the rounder XS2 presentation, in those last 2 days, i found out that the S400 still needs the control that 200 provides, the air, the scale, and the transparency, is significantly better when adding it, and missed when removing it. it seems like by adding the 200DR, more music comes through the speakers, like everything gets a breath of fresh air!

of course, to some records, this increased transparency translates into a poorer listening experience since the flaws in the recording are easier to spot, BUT, nevertheless, i think i have become slightly addicted to 200DR.

i still recon it as the dryest Naim amp in current range, but it has its strenghts, nonetheless...

the NDX, on the other hand, is a very capable player, and rather pretty neutral, it actually shows easily the direction of the amps after...

as source goes, i doubt that 272 is at the same level... the downside of this would be if i will find out that i will became addicted to NDX as well... THAT would be a real problem, since it is not cheap at all... and i will need at least a 152 as preamp to keep the 200DR... a load of money!

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by Adam Zielinski

Sounds like all is well for now then

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by catalinmetal

CrisSU, i cannot sell what i do not own... NDX and XS2 are borrowed from my dealer... i like to borrow from time to time various gear from him, and test it, in a relaxed manner, at home... sometimes, some products proved to be mandatory, other times, not quite so, but everytime, i surely did enjoyed the "sport"...

this time i rather wanted to test (again) the source first philosophy... and it was proven, and not quite so... NDX+XS2 performs better than 172/200DR in certain domains, and worse in others... overall, it is still superior, because the gain brought by NDX is greater than the one offered by 200DR, BUT...

...the price isn't the same... NDX is slightly more than 5k, 200DR is slightly under 3k... and if demanding speakers are used, then one really needs control, and might not be "tricked" with just an XS, no matter how good it is... the S400 aren't a bitch to drive, but still the effect of a better power amp is consistent...

if i would (hypothetically) be offered to trade without extra cash my 172+200DR for NDX+XS2, i would probably think for a while and in the end do it... but the value of the source + integrated is higher by some 2k eur... not an "invisible" sum after all... and gaining the refinement but losing some control, hmmm... so still 2k payed and some trade off with some gain and some loss... probably the 272/200DR would be better... i will have to try this also at home... but as i said, those are not "for purchase" listening experiments... if some test in the future will show that i really need a change, i will consider it... till then, i would like to enjoy listening to various gear when i can...

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by The Strat (Fender)

Happy NY to Bucharest. Naim do offer some options don't they but as you say it is just fun trying things and hearing the different nuances that can occur.

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by catalinmetal

Strat, you just put it in the right words! i like savor the different Naim flavors, o, man! i would do that every day! and my luck is that the Romanian Naim dealer is a close friend... can you imagine where it goes from here?

the thing is, sometimes, the upgraditis (or change-aditis) itch needs scratching... and scratching means money!

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by gary yeowell

NDX/SN2 would do it.

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by The Strat (Fender)

NDX is like the CDX2 - it really needs the XPS.

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by Adam Zielinski

The Strat (Fender) posted:
NDX is like the CDX2 - it really needs the XPS.

Or an nDAC

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by ChrisSU

Adam Zielinski posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:
NDX is like the CDX2 - it really needs the XPS.
Or an nDAC

........other off-board DACs are available

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by Adam Zielinski

ChrisSU posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:
NDX is like the CDX2 - it really needs the XPS.
Or an nDAC
........other off-board DACs are available

That's 'almost' a blasphemy....

On a serious note:

XPS does lift a performance of an NDX by a margin.
That margin is much greater when an nDAC is partnered with an NDX.
There is a further improvement if we then add an XPS to the nDAC, but I found it to be smaller than in step 2

Posted on: 05 January 2016 by Mike-B

I would add that whilst the XPS gives a significant upgrade to CDX2, it does not have the same significant effect with NDX. Yes its an upgrade, but maybe only half as effective in SQ terms.

Posted on: 06 January 2016 by catalinmetal

i thought this was about NDX, XS2, 172 and 200DR... and not XPS or nDAC...

i would be curious, and this is a straight question to Richard Dane:

Richard, on a theoretical basis (if you haven't done the comparison yourself) what would you prefer: NDX+XS2 or 172/200 (DR or not)?

thanks.

PS: others may fill this question, if they feel like, of course.

PS2: @ Mike-B: i guess Naim made a better job with PSU inside NDX... this is the way to go!

PS3: as for nDAC: it might have it's benefits, and technology (the famous 1704 chip), but i much prefered a CDS3 for example when compared the 2...

to my memory nDAC is more analytical, and NDX is more rounder, more musical. i think some users reported this, and preferred the NDX without nDAC...

Posted on: 06 January 2016 by Richard Dane

Cat,

I haven't heard the NAC-N172xs yet so couldn't give you a definite answer on this.

You should try asking my erstwhile colleagues at Naim HQ, Paul S, Doug Graham, Jason Gould, or Mark Raggett as I'm sure they will have heard both combinations many times and would give you their honest opinion.

Posted on: 06 January 2016 by catalinmetal

Thank you Richard, I would be delighted if you could get an "inside" honest opinion on this matter! just for my own knowledge, and reference to what i hear and what Naim makers believe (and recommend).

Posted on: 07 January 2016 by catalinmetal

hello Richard, can you help me with a specific e-mail address from Naim from a person who can actually help? thank you.

Posted on: 07 January 2016 by Richard Dane

Cat, I sent you an e-mail. However, best to make contact with Steve Hopkins on info@naimaudio.com who can address your request more easily.

Posted on: 07 January 2016 by catalinmetal

thanks, i was just received answer from Phil Harris...

i will wrote Steve H also, nevertheless... i like to find out opinions straight from the source, on gear we all love so much... hope they don't mind chat about their "babies"...

Posted on: 07 January 2016 by Richard Dane

Cat, I think they're all very busy trying to get through the vast number of e-mails and help queries from while they were away over Christmas, so please give them a little more time than usual to get back to you. Thanks.

Posted on: 08 January 2016 by catalinmetal

thanks Richard, all has been sorted out. Both Phil and Steven replied to me. And their message states that for the S400's the 200 is quite a must. and probably the best step for the future will be a 272.

i have also reached quite the same conclusion re-running the tests, and it seems that the best jump in SQ is with adding the 200. on XS2 the difference in 172 as source and NDX is relatively small, the XS does not have the resolution of the 172 preamp nor the drive and dynamics and texture of the 200DR...

while XS2 is a very nice amp and musical, it does not have the performance and neutrality of a 172/200 combo, not even by far, and while it grabs you, on a more relaxed listening session, i noticed that the XS2 is missing sounds compared to 172/200, in the manner that i could not live with it for a long term.

probably the closest thing to a NDX+172 is the 272... i will try it in this exact configuration woth 200DR and S400, at home, when i will have the chance.

so, for everybody that still suggests "source first"... i guess this does not apply, not here anyway... the NDX+XS2 is still 2k more expensive but the 172/200DR has the edge. as i always said, if you don't have the power amp to drive the speaker, is useless have it in the first place.

i'm glad when i'm right!

Posted on: 08 January 2016 by Richard Dane

Cat, you're sort of right, and yet also sort of wrong too.

All agreed that the S400 was too much speaker for a Nait xs regardless of source, and that a more satisfying system of NDX and Nait xs would have a less demanding speaker. The lesson here is not to choose the speaker first...

Posted on: 08 January 2016 by catalinmetal

i guess like in life, we are always sort of right, and sort of wrong!

the key is to not hurt anybody in the process, and make a few happy, i guess...

nait XS with a more suitable speaker means a speaker that XS can drive, so we get where i wanted - amp to drive the speaker. no wrong in choosing speaker first, still no logic that can dismount this strategy for me...

but nevertheless, useful lessons were learned with these recent sessions, and also, the huge amount of fun, which is - as they say - priceless!

anyway, Richard, as always, "chapeau" for your attitude! a real gentleman!

PS: i decided to get rid of the PS audio AC12 power chord. yes, it does lower the noise floor and increases resolution, but somehow, the flow is disrupted, the sound is more relaxed and musical without it. luckily i have found a DIY power chord in the house that seems to favour the 200DR in a good way... we will se in the next days.

Posted on: 08 January 2016 by analogmusic

Cat, we all hear things the way we like to hear them, so you are right for what you like and prefer, and your understanding of musicality, which may differ from many other people.

in terms of source first, you really need to hear a top spec LP12, or an NDS/555DR or a Chord Hugo as a source into a lesser amp, and a mid-level source like 172 into a better amp, to understand, that information which is lost at the source, can not be recovered by preamp, amp, or speaker.

But whatever floats your boat is fine. as you said it is nice when you are right, as it makes you happy