repositioned speakers - advice needed

If the walls are brick, SBL. 

I had a feeling you would recommend SBLs HH and if I could find some in the same condition as yours I would definitely try them out.  

For info the system is in an extension so it's a double skin brick wall.

I don't have SBLs, but have in the past. My reason for recommending them is because they go hard against the wall, as well as sounding good of course. The last time I looked Tom Tom were selling a couple of very nice looking pairs. Longer term they could do with a better preamp than the Uniti's, but should be ok. 

In my experience the amount to toe-in can affect the sound in more ways than simply getting the focus right.  I would suggest experimenting with less toe-in and see what the effect is.  With the few different speakers I've owned, I have always ended up with them in a position where there is next to no toe-in, but these things a are all room, and taste, dependent.  Worth a try if not already ruled out though.    

IME rear ported speakers can sound fab when used in the right room and placement but need too much space away from a wall in a small room, and your room does look rather small. What actually are the dimensions?

You could consider any similar sized stand mount speaker that is a sealed cabinet design. I bet a nice pre-owned pair of n sats would do well in that room & system.

Debs

Hungryhalibut posted:

I don't have SBLs, but have in the past. My reason for recommending them is because they go hard against the wall, as well as sounding good of course. The last time I looked Tom Tom were selling a couple of very nice looking pairs. Longer term they could do with a better preamp than the Uniti's, but should be ok. 

Long term I'm looking to replace the U2 with a 272 and quite possibly the 200 with a 250.2, both of which should make a huge difference.  I've seen the SBLs on Tom Tom, time for a closer look methinks.

SongStream posted:

In my experience the amount to toe-in can affect the sound in more ways than simply getting the focus right.  I would suggest experimenting with less toe-in and see what the effect is.  With the few different speakers I've owned, I have always ended up with them in a position where there is next to no toe-in, but these things a are all room, and taste, dependent.  Worth a try if not already ruled out though.    

I've tried the C10s from straight ahead to aiming directly at me, unfortunately there's no getting away from the fact that they don't like being that close to a wall.  I'll try pulling them away a few inches at a time to see if I can find a sweet(er) spot. 

naim_nymph posted:

IME rear ported speakers can sound fab when used in the right room and placement but need too much space away from a wall in a small room, and your room does look rather small. What actually are the dimensions?

You could consider any similar sized stand mount speaker that is a sealed cabinet design. I bet a nice pre-owned pair of n sats would do well in that room & system.

Debs

Since the move around I've got a floor area 14' 6" x 9', the speakers are obviously firing across the shorter distance.  

I've tried putting acoustic foam plugs in the C10s ports but that seems to soften more than just the bass and doesn't sound good at all.  I love the C10s but in truth they've always needed a bit more space than I could give them.

I've never heard n-sats (or SBLs for that matter) so I'll see what I can find locally.   

Many thanks for your responses.

I would try some naca5 first (see if you can borrow from a dealer). I tried some TQM cable and it destroyed the sound..... So maybe worth reintroducing naca5 before making any decision. 

It still surprises me that more speakers aren't made to fit against a wall, not many modern houses can cope with speakers that protrude.... 

Gary

No doubt I can borrow some A5 from the guys at Signals which I'll use when trying other speakers but I'm pretty certain the main problem is with the C10s.

They are connected in phase...?

Just a thought.

G

I'm sure the Ipswich boys will be happy to lend their expertise in making recommendations. 

Good luck 

Gary

Try positioning the speakers on the 'diagonal', one in front of the window and the other on the right side of the door as you look in, that can sometimes work wonders for bass problems, but you have to sit at a bit of an angle.

A trick I used once in a smallish room was to place the speakers on the floor (on one side) and tilt them back. They then sounded like Shahinians!

Ignoring your final comment in the first post, why not just put it back where it was in the first place. That way, you can get a foot behind the speakers, you won't be stating at a door, the cable won't need to cross the threshold under a rug, you'll be able to look at a nice window, you'll be able to see out of the patio door if you look left, you won't need new speaker leads, you won't have to sell perfectly good speakers and finally you'll drink less whisky. 

Putting my design hat on, you could swap the red carpet for something in natural tones, which will be more relaxing and make the room seem larger. 

Sorry!

No apology needed. I'm going to give the room a try this way (as long as I can try some suitable speakers) and if it doesn't work it's simple enough to put back. 

I have to think you would get a better result with the speakers firing down the long wall. If the room is 9 feet across... you could position them 15 inches from each side wall which would give you about 6.5 feet from tweeter to tweeter... I think this is reasonable and should give you decent imaging. And you could move the speakers as far into the room as needed to get the bass response right.

Regarding the diagonal suggestion... I tried to make that work once. It sounded ok, but as soon as I switched back to a square symmetrical speaker positioning I appreciated what I had been giving up during the diagonal placement experiment.

@GRAEMEH - Good thought but they are definitely in phase.

@FATHINGS CAT - Thanks.  I first dealt with Alistair 20 years ago when I bought my Densen CD and amp with some Royd Minstrels from him and I've benefited from his patience and knowledge ever since.  Which reminds me, I've still got the Minstrels in the loft so I may well have a play.

@HAFLER30 - Re diagonal placement.  I'm really hoping I won't have to go to such extremes to get a decent sound........

@ZIPPERHEADBANJO - This is what the room looked like before I decided to experiment.  It's funny but when I first set the room up and asked about speakers a few members said that I would be better off firing across rather than down the room so I've always wanted to try it.  As I said to HH, it's easy enough to put back:

Johnell posted:

...  It's funny but when I first set the room up and asked about speakers a few members said that I would be better off firing across rather than down the room so I've always wanted to try it ... 

Yes you are right 'generally' speaking, I've tried it myself and it cures a lot of ills but I could not get on with being 'so close', even with acoustic foam behind my chair it was difficult to reconcile being 'in' my hifi. Another speaker to try is the PMC twenty.21, I've had mine tight up to the back wall on the end of a SU with no 'room' unpleasantness. They are smaller than the Kudos standmount so may be a better aesthetic compromise. Check your stand top-plate will accomodate them as they look rather chunky!

Hi Johnell

so having a listen with your speakers along the long walls, what are your findings then - apart from image and tonality?  Small speakers being further apart from each other to listening distance would seem to me wrong unless you had a powerhouse of an amp driving them.

your system in the photo showing the speakers along the short wall firing down the room looks ideal. Remember that some frequences need a good length to develop properly.

cheers

@HAFLERO30 - I'm just scratching an itch and this 'near-field' set up may not work whatever speakers I try.  The PMC 21s are something I'd like to listen to but unfortunately the Partington Dreadnoughts are too big for them.

@TOBYJUG - As expected, the soundstage is much wider but it also appears to be very shallow.  The fact is the C10s need more space behind them so they are contributing to the poor bass and I would like to try speakers that are better suited to being close to a wall.  They are being driven by a NAP200.

Suggestions so far are: SBLs, n-sats and PMC 21s. 

As has been mentioned a sealed cabinet design could be the way to go. Perhaps something like the ATC SCM 11 or 19 but I understand that they need a lot of juice up them. Another maker to try if you can find any to demo, would be the Guru QM10 2 at about £1,800 or the Guru Juniors at £800. The Gurus were designed specifically to be used backed up to a wall and reviews of them are very positive with Naim kit as are the ATCs. 

I've listened to SCM 11s on some decent Naim gear in the past (not in this room) but wasn't too excited by them and they didn't make the shortlist for a home dem.  As for Guru Juniors, having read nothing but excellent reviews I'd love to try them but they don't seem to be available anywhere.  

If You like the Kudos sound why not try a pair of X2's. Used to have mine fairly close to wall before moving house, only got rid of them because of a house move... more space bigger speakers

Graham

Stevee_S posted:

As has been mentioned a sealed cabinet design could be the way to go. Perhaps something like the ATC SCM 11 or 19 but I understand that they need a lot of juice up them. Another maker to try if you can find any to demo, would be the Guru QM10 2 at about £1,800 or the Guru Juniors at £800. The Gurus were designed specifically to be used backed up to a wall and reviews of them are very positive with Naim kit as are the ATCs. 

The newer mkII ATC SCM speakers don't require as much control power as the earlier models and have quite a benign impedance curve which shouldn't be too demanding - and certainly was no issue for the original NAP200 and really rather good at  low volume (unlike the earlier SCMs). But the big consideration with all stand mounts is the stand - and ATCs seem to accentuate this dependency. In my experience ATCs are happiest with well decoupled light mass open framed stands( Something Solid, Russ Andrews) . They are at their worse with heavy solid high mass stands.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Stevee_S posted:

As has been mentioned a sealed cabinet design could be the way to go. Perhaps something like the ATC SCM 11 or 19 but I understand that they need a lot of juice up them. Another maker to try if you can find any to demo, would be the Guru QM10 2 at about £1,800 or the Guru Juniors at £800. The Gurus were designed specifically to be used backed up to a wall and reviews of them are very positive with Naim kit as are the ATCs. 

The newer mkII ATC SCM speakers don't require as much control power as the earlier models and have quite a benign impedance curve which shouldn't be too demanding - and certainly was no issue for the original NAP200 and really rather good at  low volume (unlike the earlier SCMs). But the big consideration with all stand mounts is the stand - and ATCs seem to accentuate this dependency. In my experience ATCs are happiest with well decoupled light mass open framed stands( Something Solid, Russ Andrews) . They are at their worse with heavy solid high mass stands.

Simon

 

Thanks Simon that's useful information re their relationship with high mass stands and the newer speakers not requiring so much power.

Scratching an itch" regarding near field listening could be more constructive pursuing a decent headphone set up.

I honestly cannot remember if the 11s were Mk1s or Mk2s Simon but thanks for the info re stands and if I do audition a pair at home I now know that I'll need to put them something other than my Dreadnoughts.   My 200 is brand new so I assume it can drive the ATCs ok.

Interesting thought regarding headphones Toby but I still need a decent setup for when the good lady and I listen together.

I may well be able to try some X2s at home and I've already decided that whatever speakers I am able to get will be tried in both room layouts.