Please Explain: HiCap vs. SuperCap?

Dyn,

When I had a SN1 I tried Flatcap2X,HC2,SC2. By far, the HC2 was the most musical in my room ( FC2x- not much in it, SC2- overblown dynamics, HC2- just right ). The SN2 works on the same power supply options- the search feature on this forum may be of value here?

The Flatcap is the only PS that has Naim's blessing to power 2 items.

NDAC requires an XPS2 or 555PS .

Hope this helps.

ATB,

Mark

SN2 can only use HiCap or the supercap

the Ndac can only use XPS2 or 555 power supply in this context.

hilz

Worth noting that a SC is really designed with a 252 and SNAXO in mind in terms of what it was originally envisioned to be used with.

That said, it also provides the dual rail outputs for a 282 (the only scenario you can use it with two SNAICs I beleive but could be wrong). There are those that use it purely to power things like a HeadLine or a StageLine/SuperLine phono stage, which may seem over the top but bearing in mind the philosophy is that "the PSU is the hifi - everything else just changes the function of the PSU" you can understand why some people make these pairings.

Where a FC, HC and SC are all valid options, I think the HC delivers the best value for money. The step up from FC to HC in terms of SQ is really huge. The SC on the other hand is simply sublime (I love mine) but doesn't give that same degree wow factor as the step from FC to HC.

The HC and the SC can only provide power to one component at a time.

The FC can power either one or two components simultaneously. But it doesn't sound as good as a HC or a SC

you can put a supercap on a SN (1 or 2). but with the relative same amount, you could get 282/200(DR or not) which is WAY in another league...

i even used a SC2 with a 202 once, knowing that 282 is superior, but the speakers at the time and my own taste favored the presentation of the 202 instead of 282... yes, adding the SC2 to 202 made some improvements, but would have worth the price - i guess not.

so i would recommend get the next step of amplifier instead of spending on PSUs... sorry, it is just me... a PSU is merely fun for a testing session, and not worth the investment, no matter which PSU we are talking about...

catalinmetal posted:

you can put a supercap on a SN (1 or 2). but with the relative same amount, you could get 282/200(DR or not) which is WAY in another league...

i even used a SC2 with a 202 once, knowing that 282 is superior, but the speakers at the time and my own taste favored the presentation of the 202 instead of 282... yes, adding the SC2 to 202 made some improvements, but would have worth the price - i guess not.

so i would recommend get the next step of amplifier instead of spending on PSUs... sorry, it is just me... a PSU is merely fun for a testing session, and not worth the investment, no matter which PSU we are talking about...

Cannot agree with that. The difference between a 282 fed by a HC vs. a 282 fed by a 200 alone (or even a dedicated FC) is such that I would question even owning a 282 unless it was powered by at least a HC (preferably a SC).

Each to their own I suppose. Have to to start thinking that if PSU are perceived as a waste of money then, given Naim's importance placed on them, I have to wonder whether Naim is the right product for you.

feeling_zen posted:

There are those that use it purely to power things like a HeadLine or a StageLine/SuperLine phono stage, which may seem over the top

To be fair, a Superline uses a SNAXO 17pin burndy when being powered by a Supercap, and uses all of the internal supplies just like a Snaxo would.

It is possible  to just run a Superline off a Supercap using a SNAIC5. I did this whilst waiting for the Burndy and it was noticeably better than when I used a Hicap - but as soon as the Burndy arrived and I hooked it up that way there was another enormous lift in performance.

Mike

catalinmetal posted:

you can put a supercap on a SN (1 or 2). but with the relative same amount, you could get 282/200(DR or not) which is WAY in another league...

i even used a SC2 with a 202 once, knowing that 282 is superior, but the speakers at the time and my own taste favored the presentation of the 202 instead of 282... yes, adding the SC2 to 202 made some improvements, but would have worth the price - i guess not.

so i would recommend get the next step of amplifier instead of spending on PSUs... sorry, it is just me... a PSU is merely fun for a testing session, and not worth the investment, no matter which PSU we are talking about...

catalinmetal, I am not clear about the advice you are offering in the above post. The bit I have highlighted, taken out of context, is plain wrong - power supplies are very important.

Is your comment limited to (SN2 + Power-Supply) v (282 + 200 without power supply) ? Or is it more general ?

hilz posted:

 

the Ndac can only use XPS2 or 555 power supply in this context.

hilz

An nDAC can also be powered by an XP5XS. I did so for some time. In my experience the XP5XS delivers around 80% of an XPS2's performance at about half the price. I found it took a 555PS to really outclass it.

Thanks for the replies.

I have an SN2. I am "toying" with ideas, such as HC or nDAC. With regards to the latter, I was also thinking down the road since it DOES benefit a lot (more so than the SN2) from an external PS. I was hoping for a brief second that the SC could fulfill the same role for both, simultaneously, but that would be too easy. NAIM is in it to make $$$ and to nickle-and-dime people like me. At this point, I have read enough reviews that confirm that the nDAC (even with FW upgrade) is antiquated to a lot of new DACs costing much less. Brands like Schiit come to mind. NAIM is  also totally asleep at the DAC wheel since nothing new is anticipated for CES other then an über Muso. Funny to think how Chord has introduced like 4 new DACs in like 18 months, each at a variety of price points, and NAIM has done nada. I am sorry to say that I think I am going to go the non-NAIM route instead of an overpriced, much older nDAC that lacks USB input and requires 2x its cost to sound best with an external PS. The HC will remain on the back burner of potential ideas.

It might not be wise to write-off the nDAC so quickly. The recently released firmware update has lifted its performance considerably, as testified by most on here. Indeed, one or two members have ditched the Hugo to move to it. 

MDS posted:

It might not be wise to write-off the nDAC so quickly. The recently released firmware update has lifted its performance considerably, as testified by most on here. Indeed, one or two members have ditched the Hugo to move to it. 

Cue the off-topic Chord defense.  

I don't think a defence is appropriate, the Hugo works quite differently to the NDAC and has a very different presentation even now.. The architecture hasn't changed..... It's all about what and how you listen.. and therefore what you prefer.. Now the NDAC2 with bigger reconstruction filter taps and custom converter could be something else....

MDS posted:

It might not be wise to write-off the nDAC so quickly. The recently released firmware update has lifted its performance considerably, as testified by most on here. Indeed, one or two members have ditched the Hugo to move to it. 

Indeed.

G

DynFan160 posted:

Thanks for the replies.

I have an SN2. I am "toying" with ideas, such as HC or nDAC. With regards to the latter, I was also thinking down the road since it DOES benefit a lot (more so than the SN2) from an external PS. I was hoping for a brief second that the SC could fulfill the same role for both, simultaneously, but that would be too easy. NAIM is in it to make $$$ and to nickle-and-dime people like me. At this point, I have read enough reviews that confirm that the nDAC (even with FW upgrade) is antiquated to a lot of new DACs costing much less. Brands like Schiit come to mind. NAIM is  also totally asleep at the DAC wheel since nothing new is anticipated for CES other then an über Muso. Funny to think how Chord has introduced like 4 new DACs in like 18 months, each at a variety of price points, and NAIM has done nada. I am sorry to say that I think I am going to go the non-NAIM route instead of an overpriced, much older nDAC that lacks USB input and requires 2x its cost to sound best with an external PS. The HC will remain on the back burner of potential ideas.

Taking the opportunity to slag off Naim seems inappropriate. Reading the product pages on the main website would have told you what you wanted to know. 

I agree with HH above... a premium hifi product such as made by Naim is designed to be auditioned and evaluated before purchase via their dealership network.. Ultimately only you can decide whether component X or powersupply Y works for you in your home. If you haven't the time or ability to,purchase Naim that way perhaps it's not the premium product for you... cheaper less finessed brands can usually be bought from volume retailers who are unable to offer these sort of auditioning services and that may be more appropriate in this circumstance.

Simon

Agreed HH - definitely not cricket 

DynFan160 posted:

Thanks for the replies.

I have an SN2. I am "toying" with ideas, such as HC or nDAC. With regards to the latter, I was also thinking down the road since it DOES benefit a lot (more so than the SN2) from an external PS. I was hoping for a brief second that the SC could fulfill the same role for both, simultaneously, but that would be too easy. NAIM is in it to make $$$ and to nickle-and-dime people like me. At this point, I have read enough reviews that confirm that the nDAC (even with FW upgrade) is antiquated to a lot of new DACs costing much less. Brands like Schiit come to mind. NAIM is  also totally asleep at the DAC wheel since nothing new is anticipated for CES other then an über Muso. Funny to think how Chord has introduced like 4 new DACs in like 18 months, each at a variety of price points, and NAIM has done nada. I am sorry to say that I think I am going to go the non-NAIM route instead of an overpriced, much older nDAC that lacks USB input and requires 2x its cost to sound best with an external PS. The HC will remain on the back burner of potential ideas.

Yes, as HH says, a bit of a whinge.

Why not come clean and tell us what really pisses you off about Naim ?

Then do what most of us do - go listen to your various options and choose the one that suits you best. You can then come back and quietly, politely and informatively tell us all about it !

You will know from previous threads about the Hugo and the Oppo that we are all just as eager as yourself to find those little gems that cost £1k but outshine Naim's offering at £10k. It does happen from time to time.

Erm, ok 

No. Actually NAIM's website is so poor that I did in fact have a difficult time determining what power supplies are capable of what. They could easily do a product matrix and/or rubric! 

Some of the replies on this thread are simply childish and narrow-minded and emblematic of the reputation this forum has globally within the HiFi community. NAIM may be great but it is not the end-all, be-all, especially at its price point. Their lack of DAC development is laughable compared to the competition and the latest FW update is simply a band-aid solution to that problem.

https://www.naimaudio.com/product/hicap

https://www.naimaudio.com/product/supercap

DynFan160 posted:

No. Actually NAIM's website is so poor that I did in fact have a difficult time determining what power supplies are capable of what. They could easily do a product matrix and/or rubric! 

Some of the replies on this thread are simply childish and narrow-minded and emblematic of the reputation this forum has globally within the HiFi community. NAIM may be great but it is not the end-all, be-all, especially at its price point. Their lack of DAC development is laughable compared to the competition and the latest FW update is simply a band-aid solution to that problem.

for me, it is not so very clear what you want of the forum...or do you only want to offend someone?

Dynfan,

The reason why Chord had to update all their DACs recently at a very fast pace was because they struck gold with the Hugo, and suddenly all their other DAC products looked outdated compared to it. It could be argued that Chord did it all even too fast - for example the Hugo TT has now a battery (carried over from Hugo) which the designer admits in hindsight is actually redundant for the TT product - Had they developed the new iterations at "Naim pace", they'd have better products now, not needing to change again after a while.

Naim has actually developed a few new DACs during the last years. Not just the DAC V-1, but products like NDS and the all-in-ones which contain DACs too. As to the flagship DAC, I'm quite sure Naim are working on a new model right now as we speak. But they will come out with it only when it's clearly better than what we have currently. Meanwhile, I don't think any current DAC owners object to free firmware updates which add DSD capability and such.

The Naim DAC power supplies can be found by clicking "Upgrade path" on the product page. The website readability could probably be improved, and to be honest I find even more to improve in many competitors' websites. But I wonder what is your basis for negative comments regarding this forum - maybe you're having a bad day? Cheers

This thread is really confusing. I am not even sure what it is about! 

For those who prefer the DACS from Naim’s competition, it is not so difficult. It is a free market and you are free to choose!

For those who expect that Naim should be issuing new DACs every year, then you clearly have not studied Naim over the decades. Naim simply do not rush replacement models to market until something useful has been added and the result is clearly an advance. The V1 is a wonderful DAC, and I am glad to have had the pleasure of using one for almost three years. I know it is glorious now with the new firmware applied! 

But this is miles from the topic of Hicaps and Supercaps! The Hicap is capable separate Power supply [in a small case case] for pre-amps in the main, while the Supercap is a far more advanced and expensive separate power supply [in a flull width case] that is mainly used for the superior models of pre-amplifiers. 

Hope that helps.

ATB from George

I will ask the OP again,

"Why not come clean and tell us what really pisses you off about Naim ?"