Tone control for Superuniti

No. Change the room/speaker.

J Saville posted:

No. Change the room/speaker.

And does that answer comes from you or Naim? I suppose you are aware that the human does not hear bass at low volume: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...2%80%93Munson_curves

And I suppose that you also know that some rooms cannot achieve linearity.

Anyway Im asking it! And I think someone will understand that request. Maybe once more people come by and say, "Id like to have it" then it can be added with a software upgrade. Its not a request for an analog bass knob, it would be a software thing disabled by default for the purists. Nobody will be offended.

Pyrrhon posted:

J Saville posted:

No. Change the room/speaker.

And does that answer comes from you or Naim? I suppose you are aware that the human does not hear bass at low volume: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...2%80%93Munson_curves

And I suppose that you also know that some rooms cannot achieve linearity.

Anyway Im asking it! And I think someone will understand that request. Maybe once more people come by and say, "Id like to have it" then it can be added with a software upgrade. Its not a request for an analog bass knob, it would be a software thing disabled by default for the purists. Nobody will be offended.

I agree and would like tone controls/loudness button as well or some kind of room correction.

Unfortunately Naim has other priorities - mainly gear that few of us can afford (Statement, Lumina, DR, etc)

In the mean time if you want bass at low volume you'll probably need a subwoofer.

Thanks Iconoclast !  

Mentality change, we are well educated and I trust Naim ingeneering team will agree. After all its not the same debate as analog tone controls that messes with sound. We just need a few more to come join the cause. 

I even let myself think that some snob purist lunatic will secretly play with tones while nobody watching. Lol just joking. 

I really love naim no matter what they decide around this question. But the request should be considered. 

Room correction: beyond my dreams. I'd cry with joy!

Dropping tone controls in general was an original design goal of Naim in the 70s since it just made for longer signal paths and also changed the signal itself.

With regards to digital correction, a recent quote from Paul Stephenson himself might clarify Naim's position on this topic:

room correction- 272 starred with it in but the downside on pure performance was not worth a gimmick. If we had made it work you would have it now, not saying the guys have stopped trying but until it sings it's not worth it, still not heard a system with it that works ie: with room correction still does not sound any good to me so far ....

I'd really like some digital form of tone control also on the superuniti. 

I have an nsub in the main system and for most CDs I use the one setting but it's so handy on bass light recordings/ mastering to crank up the bass to find there is some decent bass in the music just too far down in the mix. 

SJB 

How about a setting that restores some dynamics? Something analogous to a contrast setting in a TV/monitor. Naim is unfortunately brilliant at exposing recordings that are dynamically 'flat' (usually flat loud). If dynamics can be measured in the digital domain, maybe some clever s/w can effectively restore it?

Use Audacity (or a similar) audio file editor to modify the files and you have what you want.

I did this  for room correction and provided you don't go too extreme with the filters, it works well.

You could achieve this well by selling the Superuniti, buying something like a 172+NAP200 and putting an Antimode 2.0 DSP between them.

Orangutan, Audacity is cheaper and doesn't do an additional ADC / DAC processing cycle.

Naim do a lot of research optimising the DACs in things like the (£3500) SU, I don't think sending the signal through a £630 ADC / processor / DAC box is going to be it's equal in sound quality.  particularly as you've also got the ADC in the system, and good ADCs are even more difficult to design than good DACs.

In addition the 172 has a simpler DAC subsystem than the SU.

I would recommend different speakers and speaker cables

so how about high-fidelity? do we care about this, or just be tricked sweetly for our own liking?

i think the main goal for serious hi-fi gear is to show the recording as intended, or at least as little as altered as possible.

rooms will never be perfect in a home environment, but methods exist to correct many of their non-linear behavior... if speaker lack bass, get a bassy-er one, or a sub, if recording lacks bass - well you want to hear what's recorded or just spoil that and hear just what you want?

in this second case, why buy hi-fi in the first place, and not get some cheap electronics with lots of controls that deliver sounds in whatever manner?

no offence intended, just want to understand the purpose of the thread...

suffice to say that most of the hi-fi and hi-end gear has it's own coloration... if we brutally alter this, then the fidelity word will lose it's meaning... just my 2 cents.

making supplimental ADC + DAC conversions, in a low quality (most probably) "thing"... better hear what room has to say! and work with better positioning, bass traps and so on...

some users reported lack of transparency and lack of life/impact  of sound after "correcting" the freq range with Anti-mode... no wonder!

Personally the only thing I want to adjust is the bass, the rest I can live with as is.

A sub gives me the freedom to play it flat (no sub), turn it up to add a bit of atmosphere for early morning, late night low volume listening (mostly classical) or, if need be, crank it up to eviction notice ''party mode'' for disco, techno or hard rock.

I also own a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033S-II for dealing with room modes. I'm still on the fence regarding this device vs REL's recommendation to use the hi-level or speaker connection with their subs.

Its downside is that it only deals with the sub and imparts a 2.7 ms delay vs the main speakers.

On the plus side it only processes the sub's signal so for purists it doesn't corrupt ''what the artist intended on the recording'' and the 2.7 ms delay is basically inaudible compared to the havoc standing waves and room modes cam wreak on the rest of the sound.

catalinmetal posted:

so how about high-fidelity? do we care about this, or just be tricked sweetly for our own liking?

i think the main goal for serious hi-fi gear is to show the recording as intended, or at least as little as altered as possible.

rooms will never be perfect in a home environment, but methods exist to correct many of their non-linear behavior... if speaker lack bass, get a bassy-er one, or a sub, if recording lacks bass - well you want to hear what's recorded or just spoil that and hear just what you want?

in this second case, why buy hi-fi in the first place, and not get some cheap electronics with lots of controls that deliver sounds in whatever manner?

no offence intended, just want to understand the purpose of the thread...

suffice to say that most of the hi-fi and hi-end gear has it's own coloration... if we brutally alter this, then the fidelity word will lose it's meaning... just my 2 cents.

To your understanding: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

This is science here, its a fact that when you play with the volume loudness, perceived sound level does not go up and down in a straight fashion across the frequency band. Lower the volume while playing a song and youll see that bass dissapears faster then treble. So the idea is that if what we call balance is achieved at a level x then its not balanced at level y. 

I love bass and have speakers that already boost bass a little but when the volume is below 15 (on my su) the bass fades and im left with an imbalanced sound. Again its not a fault of the amp or the speaker, its the way human ear is made. Its the same thing for everyone, please try it, youll easily notice how at low level your left with snares, highhats but the bass is gone. That often leads to a need for raising the volume wich im fine with as long as it doesnt wake my daughter or damage my ear. Im really not offended and share the same 'hifi' goals as you.

Id also like to turn that feature off at volumes over 20 because my ear is pretty much linear up from that level.

Hope it was clear !

One needs to be aware of what Peter Walker of Quad fame said - and he understood the science of human hearing for certain.

“There is one correct setting of the volume for each recording. The one that gives the correct balance of sounds, and after some experimentation it is easily found."

ATB from George

Iconoclast posted:

Personally the only thing I want to adjust is the bass, the rest I can live with as is.

A sub gives me the freedom to play it flat (no sub), turn it up to add a bit of atmosphere for early morning, late night low volume listening (mostly classical) or, if need be, crank it up to eviction notice ''party mode'' for disco, techno or hard rock.

I also own a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033S-II for dealing with room modes. I'm still on the fence regarding this device vs REL's recommendation to use the hi-level or speaker connection with their subs.

Its downside is that it only deals with the sub and imparts a 2.7 ms delay vs the main speakers.

On the plus side it only processes the sub's signal so for purists it doesn't corrupt ''what the artist intended on the recording'' and the 2.7 ms delay is basically inaudible compared to the havoc standing waves and room modes cam wreak on the rest of the sound.

If naim cant provide a bass control, ill probably go for a small Rel.

_{Tone controls .........} tone controls.........tone controls ???????????????

Wash you mouth out my dear chap ! This is the NAIM forum, not Sony, Panasonic etc.....

I'm surprised you are still here, and that this thread hasn't been deleted !

If you want more bass, you have to buy DBLs (second hand of course)........

If you want to adjust the tone of your music you need different cables - about 6 sets should do the trick and it only takes your dealer about a day at a time to change them over and re-dress them, giving you plenty of time to muse over what your next piece of music shall be.

Get real !! Tone controls are for the faint-hearted, feeble-minded, superficial people who hardly notice music, never mind listen to it.

But, and it's a big BUT................

....if you look at the new Mu-so Qb blurb................it mentions two Equalisers and BASS speakers driven by a 100 Watt amplifier.............

Nice! You've been taking lessons from our friend Allante93.

I am sure our bass-hungry friend got the point now

I actually play bass in a rock band and I NEVER found any of my NAIMs to lack bass. And that must say something - a bass player who does not want more bass

Adam Zielinski posted:

I am sure our bass-hungry friend got the point now

I actually play bass in a rock band and I NEVER found any of my NAIMs to lack bass. And that must say something - a bass player who does not want more bass

I said Naim does NOT lack bass, just turn your volume very low and you'll know that bass fades faster then snares for exemple. It's a well known problem of human perceived sound. It's documented as Fletcher Munson curve or equal loudness contour. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

I am sure our bass-hungry friend got the point now

I actually play bass in a rock band and I NEVER found any of my NAIMs to lack bass. And that must say something - a bass player who does not want more bass

I played string double bass [classical music] professionally, and taught the instrument. I am allergic to too much bass in replay! I like the pitching to be very clear, and the dynamic natural, but not brought forward. In fact I hate electric bass ... Music that requires the bass amplified in the performance is of zero interest to me.

The best speaker bar none for reproducing the string bass is the original ESL. Some Naim amplifiers actually make the bass too powerful even on well recorded music.

ATB from George

Adam Zielinski posted:

I am sure our bass-hungry friend got the point now

I actually play bass in a rock band and I NEVER found any of my NAIMs to lack bass. And that must say something - a bass player who does not want more bass

If I listened to thumping bass day in day out I'd probably be more in the mood for some harp or flute music instead of MORE BASS!!! when I kicked back to relax.

My reference recording for realistic double bass is Alone together (Lee Konitz, Brad Mehldau, Charlie Haden), and no speaker I've had or heard reproduced it more sweetly and convincingly than my Sats.

A fundamental limitation is that too many speakers don't do real bass, but curtail it because good bass is hard to. There have been many discussions here about how to get fuller bass, with a commonality of responses focusing on better amps etc, when it is quite clear that the speakers' response simply rolls off and will always be compromised, even if it can be improved. Overall the answer is to get better speakers - but getting good extension and keeping it tight tends to equate to expensive, by which I mean more than a decent amp, where many people spend less.

However it is true that the human ear's response falls off at low sound levels, and for low level listening a 'loudness' control would be very useful provided it doesn't degrade the signal (which was the original Eason for eschewing the added circuitry of tone controls). In a discussion about this on this forum a year or so ago I suggested that the ideal would be a loudness count our control linked to volume, so it would roll in as the volume ontrol, is lowered, but also requiring a separate adjustment facility as the required level to start to kick in is one of sound level at the listening position, so would have to be tailored to speaker sensitivity and room.

Naim do include a loudness control in the Bentley system, so why not in home hi fi?

it is also true that there are simply bad mixes where the bass has dropped right off, both on vinyl and digital media, but whether the artificially boosting that has more positive than negative effect, or vice versa, I don't know.