Can't play hidden tracks with naim NDX

Hi,

I'm using the n-Serve app which has a slider bar to allow you to scan quickly to a certain point in a track. I assume that n-Stream also has that functionality?

Regards,

Michel

Hi Dingding -

How did you rip your files?

Couldn't you open the song file with an editor like Audacity or Twistedwave and simply remove the dead air space?

Hook

Hi Dingding,

Ah, you sound like a man who needs dbpoweramp. You simply add the DSP effect Audio CD - silent tack removal, and you are done. The hidden track plays immediately after the last track.

Peter

This is incredible.  A £3,000 streamer needs external software like Audacity or dbpoweramp so that he can listen to some hidden tracks?

Solution, use iTunes.  Ah, yes, there is no USB input on the NDX.  Using the optical sp/dif is not a good idea for best sound.  So you are back to having to use a uPNP server via ethernet or whatever.  

Why didn't Naim include the USB option?  Had they done so (likewise with the N-Serve, by the way), I would be very interested in it.  I absolutely insist on an easy to use intuitive user interface.  Thus I use Pure Music driven by iTunes.  Simples.  I can easily scroll through a track, play hidden tracks or whatever. 

I have asked this question elsewhere: why are Naim re-inventing the wheel?  

Richard

That might not work either.  Use a real media player/server.  Foobar or JRMC.

iTunes (and prob Naim) rips ignore ALL pregap data.  Not just "hidden" tracks.

To hear that Naim wont even play them is strange.

This is simply one of the many ways in which iTunes are NOT comparable to EAC, or other "proper" rippers.

a second, rather spooky, vote for DBPoweramp.

Just ripping several QOTSA CDs as I read, and 'Songs...Deaf' has a hidden track at the beginning - 'The Real Song For The Deaf'. Using poweramp, if rips it as a seperate song, track listing '0' (zero).

An NDX shourld play this in order, no problem. If you're bothered, use MediaMonkey to edit the meta data to change the tracks by plus one, making the last track no. 17, not 16, and 0 to track 1.

Have not tried the 'dead air' removal add-on, but nice to see you can alter the time to still place a small gap of your choosing, between the tracks.

New technology must be good technology - Mustn't it? It certainly persuades us to buy new kit, and possibly buy our favourite music all over again.

I run a Tera-Dak asynchronous USB/SP-Dif device off a USB output from my iMac, and into a Lavry DAC. It sounds great - when it works. If I use another USB connected device off the Mac, I then have to re-set the Mac's 'Sound' settings; re-select the Tera-Dak in 'Audio Midi Set-Up' and re-select the Tera-Dak in the Audirvana software I'm using, before I can play a tune.

Reading this forum; the streaming option seems to be similarly fraught with complicated options and problems. High quality music replay in the home simply should not be this complicated.

Recording from vinyl onto tape was a cinch compared to this computer audio/streaming lark. I'm tending to simply play vinyl or spin CDs of late. Someone has really thought this out - Drop a stylus into a groove or press a button marked 'Play'. Brilliant!

John.

It sure doesn't feel that complicated to me.  An Nserve along with a Qute or NDX and off you go.  Slip a cd into the front of the Nserve, it rips, shows up on the iPad app and press play.  I think that there are many people making way too much out of setup problems that have cropped up for a few and it has muddied the waters for someone looking for ease of operation and superb sound.

If you use a Mac it is bound to be difficult.  Many of the components used in digital ripping/playing/streaming are unavailable or buggy at best on a Mac.

Those with PCs or an All-Naim solution are having a good time with supreme ease.

Well, not with my setup.  I use a Mac.  Horror.  Actually I chose it over Windows as it always works, provided you use Mac compatible accessories.  The troubles start when you go off with non standard software.  I had an awful job trying to get either or both the N-Serve and the N-Stream apps to work with the Qute and Serve in my system. Now with just the Qute, I had another go with the N-Stream yesterday and just gave up. It would not connect. Or more accurately, the Qute just displayed, "Starting network"  Huh?  So back to the hand held remote for the Qute, which actually is superior because the increments and decrements of the volume display show whole numbers calibrated to 1.0 dB (so a Naim techie told me at Bristol).  The N-Stream has just a crude slider, rather similar to what is displayed on my iPad2 with iTunes/Pure Music - thus rarely used.

As for using a PC, well I was forced to do just that to get the Web browser supplied by Naim on a CD to see the N-Serve. It was a salutary experience, one that reminded me of my very first computer (using Dos) in 1989. Crude, slow, difficult and very awkward with no ability to find duplicates in a Playlist or elsewhere. No ability to arrange the order of tracks by date added, or date purchased, or by artist or composer, no copying and pasting, etc.  You get the picture.  

For anyone to stand up and suggest that is the epitome of achievement in a user interface is either mad or bad.  

I have said it before and I will repeat it again, I demand a user friendly music interface.  For anyone to suggest I should be changing my computer simply to accommodate a Hi Fi brands software requirements is absurd.  To further suggest I should be prepared to download and install external software such as dbpoweramp or whatever is even more ridiculous.  

I say, ridiculous, because the solution is available to me and anyone else running Apple software, choose iTunes with Pure Music (or Amarra).  What I must do, as a consequence of this choice, is be prepared to abandon my cherished first choice of Hi Fi brand (Naim) and choose another. In my case it means buying the North Star Essensio USB asynchronous streamer and DAC, which will feed the analog input of my Qute.  Simples.

Richard

PS:   No offence intended to anyone who chooses differently.

However richard in terms of the OPs problem in this thread itunes Fails as well. Which makes your long post a bit moot.

To de fair there is a hidden track at the beginning of a OTT cd I have and its never played in any CD player I have owned so just how important these little snippets are I don't know.

Hi Richard -

I do not recall all of the details of the thread describing your frustrations with N-stream and N-serve, and I have no interest in defending the software's stability or lack of feature set.

But clearly, neither app has a chance of success without a solid network foundation.

So my question is:   given they seem to work for many others, have you ever had your Naim dealer over to to take a look at your setup?   Or perhaps a friend who understands computer networks?   Sounds like you are not getting basic connectivity, and my thought is that it could be something fairly simple to fix...

A few days ago, I got bit by a Windows 7 update to my music server which caused Remote Desktop Connection to stop functioning.   The update silently reset my firewall setting!  Very frustrating.  Took a bit of google searching, but as usual, I was not the first to hit this issue.  A quick change to my security settings, and all was well again.

Good luck.

Hook

Hi Tog -

You've read the DAC white paper, haven't you?   Naim made it quite clear that they felt they could not get to their sound quality target via USB.   Too much RF noise from the PC's switch mode power supplies.

And yes, I do understand that others have implemented galvanically isolated USB ports, and are happy with the results.   But unless you think Naim are lying and did not even make an attempt, or unless you think they really do not know what they are doing, then why is this still a technology issue?

I can understand why cost would be an issue for folks on a tight budget.  A V-Link plus OptiChord can add $250 to the total cost of connecting a PC to the DAC.  But in terms of functionality, I do not understand what, if anything, we missing by using S/PDIF instead. 

If that $250 equates, as Naim says, to improved sound quality, then I accept their judgement as simply part of the cost of doing business with them.   If that makes the DAC and NDX non-competitive from a cost perspective for you or for others, then as you say, there are lots of other purchase options.

Hook 

Outside of this forum, there are a lot of people who'd rather NOT use their computer for recreational music listening–especially if one is parked in front of it all day (+1).

Some people love the sound quality results they get with Amarra and a decent USB interface / DAC–others find it clumsy, buggy (+1) and not so easy to use.

In the end–one chooses the products that sound good with the functionality they require–at the moment, there are a lot of options within the Naim product range which work and can sound good.

Hi Gayi

I have never observed this problem. Meaning it may exist, but it has never bothered me. However, I have occasional tracks that play, but show up as greyed out in the Remote app.  Is this related?  I don't know. But being curious about this, I found this link which may help some here who have iTunes:

http://matharden.co.uk/music/o...en-tracks-in-itunes/

Richard

Just to be clear Richard.  It isn't these kind of "hidden tracks" I am talking about.  The ones after 5 minutes of silence are not really hidden.  Typically they are a part of the last song.

On plenty of discs there is "pre-gap data", (music) BEFORE a song starts.  This is often found on live or "segued" discs.  Usually found at the beginning of a album as a "lead-in" so to speak.

If you ever notice your CDP with a static 0:00 for a few seconds, there you go.

iTunes will not find these upon ripping.  Playback seems affected as well.

Then there are hidden tracks with track number "00".  These will also be ignored.

Really a shame you can't get that up and running Richard.  It must be very frustrating.  I use both Windows 7 and Mac OSX on my newish MacBook Pro and they both truly seem speedy and solid to me.  I use a Windows XP machine to stream from using Asset and it just works like a charm and the kicker is of course the superb sound through the Naim networking products using UPnP.  Every time I listen again to the Mac with whatever software flavor of the month, I soon switch back to UPnP and breathe a sigh of relief at how damn good it is.  Not sure what the sticking point is with UPnP and Macs but if someone ever figures it out they will definately find a following among computer music lovers.  To be perfectly honest, I am probably more willing to give up a bit slicker interface than sound quality so I may end up getting a new Windows machine to purchase music and rip to and simply continue to use my Mac for every other computing I do. 

That said....if Naim comes out with an Airplay function to go with their newtworking products it will go a long way in easing tensions between camps.

Whilst I would not dare to contradict Naim's claims at having exhausted their ability to achieve superior SQ using the USB input, I do think it is sensible to listen to what others are claiming.  I found this on a site about the North Star DACs:

"By connecting a PC or a Mac to the USB2.0 port you will be able to play audio files in high resolution beyond the limits imposed by the previous technology on USB ports. Appropriate drivers have been developed for different operating systems, thus ensuring a proper timing and a no-compromise reproduction quality.

But all this would not be enough to get an audiophile reproduction. One of the big challenges in the reproduction of streaming music is the (negative) influence of the computer on the quality of reproduction. Many audiophiles have the experience that for playing music from a PC or Mac via a dedicated sound cards, also of great quality, one often faces limitations related to noise generated by power supplies and not to mention the noisy fans needed to cool down the computer, which are limiting the pleasure of listening. Forget about all that. Today you can get the most from these sources by designing the converter to make it independent of the computer used for playback.

Two are the devices used: data resynchronization and magnetic separation of the ground. The first solution allows different methods to release from the transmission on USB, using on-board reference oscillator with low jitter of the DAC is capable of re-clocking of incoming data from the computer with absolute precision. The second solution allows to completely decouple the ground of the computer from that of the DAC, allowing the transmission of signals at high speed but without the noise generated by the computer. We can say that, whatever the computer, the playback quality will always be at the highest levels."

If the words seem a little juxtaposed it might be because this is a translation from Chinese which was a paraphrase from the Italian, I believe.

But you get the picture.  For me, excuses of inability to get the highest SQ off USB do not wash, as others are doing so without problems. But anyway, Naim are either operating double standards or are ignoring something.  Remember, they use a computer source for their HDX.  They also use a Chinese designed and made external digital power supply for the UnityServe. The UnityServe achieves excellent SQ, despite being lumbered with what some might claim is a poor substitute for a Naim designed linear external supply.

Richard

Richard,

It might be worth noting that the NorthStar USB DAC, as well as the Benchmark USB DAC, are two of the most heavily modified DAC out there.  Most who do this feel that those DACs in and of themselves do not handle the USB signal well.  Take for example the products from Empirical Audio (smart man).  The owner has modified NorthStar DAC for years.  Mods included: I2S connections, Master clock what-not, Super clocks???, then use of special USB-to-I2S (or USB-to-SPDIF) converters.

The only USB DACs which seem to get serious run without third party mods are from Wavelength.  Ironically, the code used is the Wavelength DAC has been recycled/licensed into numerous USB-SPDIF converters that are heavily used in this forum.

My guess is that the straight USB connection didnt make sense given Naim's development of UPNP servers and renderers with SPDIF output.  The fact that it may not have sound as good seems to hold some weight as well.

In my honest opinion, and I am still in this boat, the only reason for wanting a direct USB input is to continue to use computer based media players (foobar, J River, iTunes), or to avoid the expense of a NAS and/or Naim Server when one already has a fully functioning and possibly redundant computer available.

I have no doubt that divorcing the PC from a direct connection with my Hifi will result in better sound.  Also, I would not disagree that the Qute or NDX may have a better digital output than my PC's Juli@ soundcard. 

It all comes down to budgets for me.  $2500 (at least) for a Naim digital output is not in my cards right now.  A Hicap must come next.  Then a demo to see if Juli@>nDAC/XPS is better or worse than a Qute>Bare nDAC. 

-Patrick

Hi Richard -

No, sorry, but I do not "get the picture".

You apparently believe that Naim is either incompetent or lazy when it comes to implementing USB connectivity.  I, instead, take them at their word, and accept that they were able to achieve better sound quality through a USB-to-S/PDIF converter.

And yes, they do use a computer board in their HDX, but they do not use USB digital output.  So, where is this double standard you are referring to?   I do not see it, nor do I understand what the UnitiServe's PS has to do with Naim rejecting the idea of direct USB connectivity.

As I said in my earlier post, other than the cost of a $169 (US) converter, I just do not see what the big deal is.   I will ask again:  what's to be gained from direct USB connectivity that we're not already getting from S/PDIF?  There is certainly nothing to suggest it would be improved sound quality, and that is what I care most about.

Hook

I agree with Naim that a direct USB connection from a computer to a their DAC would be a less than ideal solution. I had a DAC with a USB interface and an alternative interface using Bluetooth APTX technology; I'd even venture to say that no other DAC I've heard at under £1k came close to this little Gem from Maidstone and yet it was its APTX interface that shone. 

Perhaps it is right that the cheap and nasty power supplies in many PCs are a limiting factor and I guess Naim uses such a beast externally with its US to try to eliminate as much of its effect as possible. Though I agree a properly designed Naim supply would be better. 

So the Naim DAC sports neither Ethernet nor a USB computer input. Connecting a Mac using an optical connection is OK, but does not yield anywhere near the quality of a USB stick. However fortunately, there is help at hand by way of an asynchronous USB connection to a re-clocking device - there are lots on the market, but the one I use certainly does a good job. Is the MF V-Link the very best way to connect a computer to the Naim DAC? Sorry I can't say I've tried that many and there be some lavish claims for various models on the web; many make pretty convincing arguments as to why their way is the best. As a substitute for the V-Link, I have tried hi-Face and Weiss INT202 and recently an M-Audio ProFire - all these devices outperformed the optical connection on the MacBook, but in my view none outperformed the V-Link. That said none were blown away  by the V-Link; in fact I'm only claiming the V-Link is as effective as any of these, not better. 

The curious thing about the V-Link is that I happily use an optical cable with it and there is certainly nothing to be gained by changing to Coax, well at least not with a Chord cables. 

Apparently the measured jitter from the V-Link is 5 ps, whereas that from the optical interface on a Mac is up in the 100s. I'm only guessing this is important, but I do believe the isolation afforded by the V-Link helps. I also would say the same applied to the other devices. 

So using an under £100 device from MF gives the Naim DAC that USB connectivity we crave without in any way compromising its sound quality; so equipped it gives a USB stick more than a run for its money. 

I have not heard the 100s of DACs others have heard - just a few. I did take part in a silly episode called a bake-off where 5 DACs were compared (not the Naim) - the winner, for what it is worth, was a BAD Alpha DAC and it has no Firewire or USB input, but uses something called S/PDIF to achieve stunning results. My little Gem of DAC didn't disgrace itself against this mighty opposition, but was outclassed, nonetheless it easily outperformed an often mentioned (on this forum at least) non-Naim digital-to-analogue converter that costs far more.

So I'm still a very happy Naim DAC owner, I also have a second DAC in the Naim UQ, which is quite superb too.  I really don't see the lack of a USB interface to a computer as any problem at all - you could just use a Halide Bridge - effectively a single cable from computer USB to Naim S/PDIF or a hi-Face in similar fashion (sorry lads, didn't like loading drivers, but otherwise great little gadget). There are many effective solutions until Naim brings out something that does the job - assuming USB does not become obsolete before Salisbury gets around to it. 

All the best, Guy 

> In my case it means buying the North Star Essensio USB asynchronous streamer and DAC, which will feed the analog input of my Qute.  Simples.

Hi Richard - don't understand why you'd want to do that - simply use a very small MF V-Link to connect between your Mac and the Qute and enjoy the music - much cheaper than buying a North Star Essensio USB asynchronous streamer and DAC. Then continue to use iTunes and if you prefer it Pure Music: just as you enjoy now. Even more simples - you just plug it in and it works. 

Are you upgrading to Lion on your Mac, I can't because my stupid Intel processor is not up to it; it's getting as bad as Windoze (not really only joking, I'll buy a new Mac as I heard Steve Jobs needs the cash). iCloud therefore I am. 

All the best, Guy