Ethernet cable installation...

And this is how I've solved my LAN gear 'problem'. Upgraded PS on the NAS and running on a totaly separate mains spur. All my audio is on dedicated mains. It was done at a remodelling / build stage. 

The home network starts with Apple Airport Extreme / Timecapsule. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

And this is how I've solved my LAN gear 'problem'. Upgraded PS on the NAS and running on a totaly separate mains spur. All my audio is on dedicated mains. It was done at a remodelling / build stage. 

The home network starts with Apple Airport Extreme / Timecapsule. 

Oh my! that is a serious installation -- mine looks micky mouse inc omparison!  there are probably a few things that i can do to improve my network setup -- but i dont want to get too obsessive about it all. the re-jig i did recently seems to have worked wonders -- though i still have to try the Meicord NDS to switch and Unitiserve to switch to add to the one on NAS to switch -- but i dont expect the impact of these cables to be that significant. I do like the Meicords though as they seem to be quite well made and exude quality!

i have learnt a lot during this recent exercise. i have a lot to learn still i'm sure. the major conclusion i am running with right now is that, provided the ethernet cables meet the appropriate minimum stds -- the most important issue is how they are routed relative to other equipment in the setup to minimize interaction effects of whatever kind.

my network gear is on a seperate ring circuit on the main consumer unit. my hifi is on a radial on a completely different consumer unit dedicated to Hifi. So mains-wise, at least i have a degree of separation.

i will get the iFi power supply for my GS108 switch though --just for good measure.

enjoy

ken

Yes, the ifi is jolly good. Any initial doubts I had have now gone. 

Hi Ken - I had a benefit of planning everything before the building / renovation started. A friend of mine is an IT Manager / LAN specialist, so he bought all the gear for me on the 'cheap'. 
Eseentially I have a fully fledged CAT6 LAN network at home, hidden under the floors, terminating with at least one LAN socket in each room.  It was primarily designed for music streaming though One must have some priorities....

As far as improvements: biggest gains are from using a dedicated power supply with a UPS (the black rack-mount box at the bottom), which also has a mains filter (apparently), adding C-Chord for all streaming duties (I run 4 NAIM streamers), and an upgraded PS for my NAS.

The streaming duties are handled by a UnitiServe SSD, stationed in a living room.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Yes, the ifi is jolly good. Any initial doubts I had have now gone. 

thanks HH -- i'll see how i get on. it definitely sounds like a good idea, but from what what i have learnt over the past few days, its unlikely to be the main course -- i expect it will more on the 'pudding' side, but we'll see.

enjoy

ken

there is so much conspiring to interfere with streamed music makes one appreciate how simple and straight fwd vinyl replay is -- despite the manual effort involved -- which isnt =bad anyway in these lay modern times.

just a thought though -- given what seems like a plethora of issues to do with music streamed wired via ethernet cable --isnt wireless better then? or does that have its own own set of interferences?

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:..............  its unlikely to be the main course -- i expect it will more on the 'pudding' side,

 

  .........  my iFi iPower was intended to be a light "snack".  Problem was it turned into being the "starter" as when I was nibbling away was when I broke the RJ45 plug clips.  Then it became a full blown lunch with a double "MeiCord Steak".  

ken c posted:

there is so much conspiring to interfere with streamed music makes one appreciate how simple and straight fwd vinyl replay is --   -- given what seems like a plethora of issues to do with music streamed wired via ethernet cable --isnt wireless better then? or does that have its own own set of interferences?

You can-not be serious      unlike the required care of the delicate vinyl & fuss cleaning, storing & to say nothing of the snap, crackle & pops,  ethernet is simple.    But like the people who make the nerdish complexities of vinyl,   people also make ethernet too complicated. 

Wireless = sporn of the devil       

Mike-B posted:

ken c posted:..............  its unlikely to be the main course -- i expect it will more on the 'pudding' side,

 

  .........  my iFi iPower was intended to be a light "snack".  Problem was it turned into being the "starter" as when I was nibbling away was when I broke the RJ45 plug clips.  Then it became a full blown lunch with a double "MeiCord Steak".  

i shall certainly take care not to nibble at the RJ45 plugs -- and i am more worried about the very few teeth i have left 

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

ken c posted:

there is so much conspiring to interfere with streamed music makes one appreciate how simple and straight fwd vinyl replay is --   -- given what seems like a plethora of issues to do with music streamed wired via ethernet cable --isnt wireless better then? or does that have its own own set of interferences?

You can-not be serious      unlike the required care of the delicate vinyl & fuss cleaning, storing & to say nothing of the snap, crackle & pops,  ethernet is simple.    But like the people who make the nerdish complexities of vinyl,   people also make ethernet too complicated. 

Wireless = sporn of the devil       

i demand the umpire be called, immediately ! 

ethernet is simple? well... 

 'nerdish complexities of vinyl' ...  well put! but seems its like from frying pan to fire when one goes from vinyl to streaming ... dressing ethernet cables? what next!

enjoy

ken

can anyone explain what screened ethernet cables are meant to achieve and why there seems to be a preference for unscreened by some? also -- related -- why would one mix screened and unscreened in the same network setup?

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

ken c posted:

there is so much conspiring to interfere with streamed music makes one appreciate how simple and straight fwd vinyl replay is --   -- given what seems like a plethora of issues to do with music streamed wired via ethernet cable --isnt wireless better then? or does that have its own own set of interferences?

You can-not be serious      unlike the required care of the delicate vinyl & fuss cleaning, storing & to say nothing of the snap, crackle & pops,  ethernet is simple.    But like the people who make the nerdish complexities of vinyl,   people also make ethernet too complicated. 

Wireless = sporn of the devil       

i demand the umpire be called, immediately ! 

ethernet is simple? well... 

 'nerdish complexities of vinyl' ...  well put! but seems its like from frying pan to fire when one goes from vinyl to streaming ... dressing ethernet cables? what next!

why is wireless sporn of the devil...?

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

can anyone explain what screened ethernet cables are meant to achieve and why there seems to be a preference for unscreened by some? also -- related -- why would one mix screened and unscreened in the same network setup?

Mike, thanks for your reply. I realise your comments are 'intuitive' but I feel inclined to take your advice, get some Supra LoRad and relocate the power source (wall socket) for my LAN gear power strip. I have gone with your intuition before with the iFi iPower and have not regretted it. Don't worry, if these changes don't appear to do anything then I will be satisfied that I have at least combated another potential source of noise.

Adam, thanks for the advice also that aligns with Mike's and wow, what a set up. You have really paid attention to optimising your LAN, which I am convinced brings real sonic improvements.

HH, firstly congratulations on the (2nd) new avatar that is as eye-catching as the original fishy thing. That reminds me I must get me an avatar. Secondly, and more importantly, I am glad you have also seen (heard) benefits from the iFi iPower. I tried to put in words the subtle, but welcome improvements in SQ this little bit of noise-cancelling kit brought to my system so would be interested to hear your thoughts if you are able to verbalise these improvements. I have been gradually convinced of the sonic benefits from routing out noise from wherever it may emanate in our LANs. That is why I have been hounding Mike who seems to have really grasped this nettle and very worthwhile it is IMHO.

Ken, do not even contemplate going wireless. You WILL be disappointed by the results. I will leave it to others on here to explain the technical reasons why, but for now take it from me, a bit of effort removing noise from your wired LAN (and the judicious use of 'quality' ethernet cables) WILL be worth the effort.

To All, I have been quite frankly amazed at the SQ enhancements the reduction of noise has brought to my system. Each change brings incremental (I mean small) improvements but these are cumulative, each building on the last that brings about a significant enhancement in SQ. It really is no more effort than we all used to make on analogue sources, you know those old fashioned black discs that we used to plonk on the spinny thing. The only thing we lack regarding LAN enhancements is knowledge and experience because it is, lets face it, still relatively new to us music lovers. That is why advice from gentlemen like Mike and Adam is so important to us all in the interests of getting the best from our (relatively) new 'computerised' music sources.

I am convinced there are many sub-optimal LANs out there feeding very expensive Naim systems. It is the one area that we LAN novices need help on and need to pay more attention to IMHO.

I will update you all on my findings relocating my LAN power source and the introduction of shielded power cables. But don't expect A/B comparisons. As I have said before, life is too short.

Also previously stated, fiddling is fine but don't cross the line!

Fishy thing? That, my boy, is Totoro. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Fishy thing? That, my boy, is Totoro. 

I still sense some lingering attachment to Totoro. Was the parting amicable? Might there be a reconciliation sometime?

nigelb posted:

 

Ken, do not even contemplate going wireless. You WILL be disappointed by the results. I will leave it to others on here to explain the technical reasons why, but for now take it from me, a bit of effort removing noise from your wired LAN (and the judicious use of 'quality' ethernet cables) WILL be worth the effort.

 

i wasnt contemplating on going wireless -- i just wanted to understand, in relation to wired, which has its issues also -- what the pros and cons are...

enjoy

ken

nigelb posted:

The only thing we lack regarding LAN enhancements is knowledge and experience because it is, lets face it, still relatively new to us music lovers. That is why advice from gentlemen like Mike and Adam is so important to us all in the interests of getting the best from our (relatively) new 'computerised' music sources.

 

given what i have picked up here over the past few days, you can tell i was starting as a real novice -- and i still am. but i'm picking up snippets of information here ad there and thats really great! its also good to 'understand' reasons why -- if at all possible of course

enjoy

ken

Adam Zielinski posted:

And this is how I've solved my LAN gear 'problem'. Upgraded PS on the NAS and running on a totaly separate mains spur. All my audio is on dedicated mains. It was done at a remodelling / build stage. 

The home network starts with Apple Airport Extreme / Timecapsule. 

Very neatly done Adam. 

ken c posted:

 

i demand the umpire be called, immediately ! 

why is wireless sporn of the devil...? 

Hi again Ken,  its obvious wireless is so right for many domestic uses,   &  for audio, wireless should, in theory, sound the same as wired if your connection is good.   Problems is that its all a bit variable & doesn't live up to the promises.    802.11n promises theoretical speeds up to 600mbs, but reality is 150 or 300 with ISP grade routers.  I get a potential of 300mbs over my 5GHz link, but plug in a cable & its 1000mbs.

ken c posted:

there is so much conspiring to interfere with streamed music makes one appreciate how simple and straight fwd vinyl replay is -- despite the manual effort involved -- which isnt =bad anyway in these lay modern times.

just a thought though -- given what seems like a plethora of issues to do with music streamed wired via ethernet cable --isnt wireless better then? or does that have its own own set of interferences?

enjoy

ken

Well many of these 'issues' should you have a home LAN will equally affect vinyl. In fact I had more RFI/EMI issues  with vinyl than I ever had with my streamer/DAC.

I guess what streaming does is introduce to many without any prior knowledge the possible causality of some of this interference.

Streaming is robust, and unless you have poor cable dressing techniques, or questionable products such as PLAs  is a great way of providing audio replay.

Simon

Screened Ethernet cables can occasionally be of use in a domestic environment, but only where circumstances conspire against you.

In my case, the Ethernet cable to my streamer HAS to go past my computer, close to the mains and monitor cables; unfortunately I can't arrange it any other way.  As a result that cable is screened and has ferrites on each end.

I also have a lot of contamination on the mains (conducted RFI and an asymmetric waveform) that is coming from outside (turning off everything in my house other than the HiFi, doesn't fix it).  So I built a filter box specifically to fix that.

More recently my neighbours have changed, and the level of radiated RFI has increased - I suspect they are using Ethernet PLAs.  To handle this I have a LOT of ferrites on all the HiFi cables (analogue and digital including Ethernet).  Most recently I changed all the ferrites close to the Naim boxes from a mix of Meisongbei and TDK to the more effective Würth Elektronik types.  Changing the ferrites on the analogue cables gave a significant improvement, but there was little or no detectable improvement when changing the ferrites on the Ethernet cable (but removing the ferrites completely from this cable wrecks the sound).

My conclusion from this is that the streamer's RFI rejection from the Ethernet connection is better than the amp's RFI rejection from it's analogue cables; even in pretty bad circumstances.  This also suggests that unscreened Ethernet cables will usually suffice in most domestic situations, but be prepared to try screened cables with ferrites if you can't keep them away from mains cables and electronic devices.

I also take the view that RFI can't just be dealt with at one point, it has to be dealt with everywhere it can impinge on the system.
I also acknowledge Simon's point about sorting out broadcast Ethernet traffic and the effect of different network stacks in different servers as a way of optimising the system.

Huge posted:

More recently my neighbours have changed, and the level of radiated RFI has increased - I suspect they are using Ethernet PLAs.  To handle this I have a LOT of ferrites on all the HiFi cables (analogue and digital including Ethernet).  Most recently I changed all the ferrites close to the Naim boxes from a mix of Meisongbei and TDK to the more effective Würth Elektronik types.  Changing the ferrites on the analogue cables gave a significant improvement, but there was little or no detectable improvement when changing the ferrites on the Ethernet cable (but removing the ferrites completely from this cable wrecks the sound).

Not that I advocate it, but if you have an amateur radio operator buddy with a full CEPT licence - a totally legal 400W PEP  of RTTY from a temporary station in your house garden may  cause havoc with very close by badly radiating to arguably unlawful level PLAs - when connected to your mains (if they radiate radio excessively the chances are they can receive radio excessively) and this has been known to knock them out requiring a reset/power cycle - but the noise is reduced until reset. I heard of a few examples of this  a few years back...... of course this should never happen to a PLA because they are not 'officially' receiving or transmitting radio.

Simon

How do you know you have a problem Huge ? - do you notice a degradation in your enjoyment of your system or do you regularly measure your environment and find the problem that way ?