Ethernet cable installation...

just noted that my ethernet cables are as follows:

switch to NDS cat5e F/UTP (cant even remember where i bought this -- but it was cheap as chips). trying higher spec meicord 

switch to UnitiServe/SSD: cat5e STP (again, cheap as chips..)

switch to NAS (trying MEICORD right now -- i know this is unshielded -- and this is not cheap)

so i have a mixture of shielded and unshielded -- hence my question earlier -- does it matter??

up to now, this has been irrelevant till i bought the AQ cinnamon to try --

enjoy

ken

Hi James,

I have very occasionally done this (when planning other changes)...

1  Turn off all other electrical appliances in my house.
2  Listen to some recordings I know well.
3  Remove all (or even some of) the RFI protection from my system.
4  Listen to the same recordings.
5  Reinstate the RFI protection from my system.
6  Listen to the same recordings.

The results at stage 4 are invariably worse than stage 1 or stage 6, but are also quite variable (even at best they're never quite as good as 1 or 6).

At some stage I'll invest in a PC based oscilloscope to have a definitive look at any extraneous harmonic and non-harmonic non-ideal behaviour of the mains.  Measuring radiated RFI requires specialist equipment I don't posses.

Use of a "mains offset filter" to ameliorate mains waveform asymmetry significantly reduced the hum from the transformers in my system; this effectively proves that the asymmetry was present.

Thanks Huge - just interested in what prompted you to suspect the neighbours so thanks for the informative answer 

James

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Huge posted:

More recently my neighbours have changed, and the level of radiated RFI has increased - I suspect they are using Ethernet PLAs.  To handle this I have a LOT of ferrites on all the HiFi cables (analogue and digital including Ethernet).  Most recently I changed all the ferrites close to the Naim boxes from a mix of Meisongbei and TDK to the more effective Würth Elektronik types.  Changing the ferrites on the analogue cables gave a significant improvement, but there was little or no detectable improvement when changing the ferrites on the Ethernet cable (but removing the ferrites completely from this cable wrecks the sound).

Not that I advocate it, but if you have an amateur radio operator buddy with a full CEPT licence - a totally legal 400W PEP  of RTTY from a temporary station in your house garden may  cause havoc with very close by badly radiating to arguably unlawful level PLAs - when connected to your mains (if they radiate radio excessively the chances are they can receive radio excessively) and this has been known to knock them out requiring a reset/power cycle - but the noise is reduced until reset. I heard of a few examples of this  a few years back...... of course this should never happen to a PLA because they are not 'officially' receiving or transmitting radio.

Simon

Alternatively, I could build an EMP device, disconnect all my stuff and then trigger it close to the party wall (neither side has aluminium coated plasterboard).   

Maybe not: I don't know if either of them has an artificial pacemaker, and I really don't want to kill them, besides which they're not at all that bad.  I'll just keep going with the Würth ferrites and hope that the level of RF emission isn't too bad biologically.  Besides which I don't know that it actually is them!

You may want to consider moving to a valve based system (could be interesting for the streamer though...) before deploying the EMP device 

james n posted:

You may want to consider moving to a valve based system (could be interesting for the streamer though...) before deploying the EMP device 

I'm more worried about my computing needs - Colossus took up a LOT of space and needed a LOT of power (still it would keep my house warm).  

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ken c posted:

there is so much conspiring to interfere with streamed music makes one appreciate how simple and straight fwd vinyl replay is -- despite the manual effort involved -- which isnt =bad anyway in these lay modern times.

just a thought though -- given what seems like a plethora of issues to do with music streamed wired via ethernet cable --isnt wireless better then? or does that have its own own set of interferences?

enjoy

ken

Well many of these 'issues' should you have a home LAN will equally affect vinyl. In fact I had more RFI/EMI issues  with vinyl than I ever had with my streamer/DAC.

I guess what streaming does is introduce to many without any prior knowledge the possible causality of some of this interference.

Streaming is robust, and unless you have poor cable dressing techniques, or questionable products such as PLAs  is a great way of providing audio replay.

Simon

to the extent that i could tell, i dont believe i had as many issues (RFI/EMI or whatever) with my vinyl replay -- thats not to say it doesnt have disadvantages too. the point i am making is precisely what ou say in " ...I guess what streaming does is introduce to many without any prior knowledge the possible causality of some of this interference" . I guess i qualify as one of those 'without any prior knowledge'...

i wasnt being all negative about streaming by the way -- it has lots of advantages -- and is very enjoyable too -- but it certainly isnt a walk in park, especially when you try to undersand this 'causality' you refer to. and i know that its probably possible for this medium to work without any of the issues we are discussing here -- i certainly dont want to put anyone off.

enjoy

ken

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Streaming is robust, and unless you have poor cable dressing techniques, or questionable products such as PLAs  is a great way of providing audio replay.

Simon

... or unless your neighbour has PLAs -- i suspect this will become increasingly common. but as you say, this will likely affect all sources to one's Hifi -- though seems to surface more frequently in the context of streaming... ah well..

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

 i know that its probably possible for this medium to work without any of the issues we are discussing here -- i certainly dont want to put anyone off.

enjoy

ken

But that's the thing Ken - it does work. It's the same as any of the other Ethernet equipped products you have in your house. You probably just plugged them in with any cable that was in the box / you had spare etc and it worked.

Your system certainly worked fine before, you may just find it sounds a little better with some of the ideas from Mike etc mentioned in the thread. 

james n posted:

Your system certainly worked fine before, you may just find it sounds a little better with some of the ideas from Mike etc mentioned in the thread. 

my system still sounds works fine, so there is no issue in that respect. if it stops working in all these attempts to optimise the setup -- no problem, i have a baseline -- a known starting point config that i can alway go back to.

its the number of detours in the optimisation journey -- some of which i thought were irrelevant to digital -- as suggested in various posts above -- that are "interesting" but can 'get in the way'...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

so i have a mixture of shielded and unshielded -- hence my question earlier -- does it matter??

I don't think mixing STP & UTP matters too much other than being careful to only have ONE ground.  

It your LAN the only screened cable will be from Switch to UnitiServe,  & assuming the UnitiServe's  RJ45 port is connected (via the PSU) to earth,  it alone is the only ground connected screen.   It means the screen provides a ground to the switch,  but that will have no effects on the unscreened Meicord(s).   

ken c posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Streaming is robust, and unless you have poor cable dressing techniques, or questionable products such as PLAs  is a great way of providing audio replay.

Simon

... or unless your neighbour has PLAs -- i suspect this will become increasingly common. but as you say, this will likely affect all sources to one's Hifi -- though seems to surface more frequently in the context of streaming... ah well..

enjoy

ken

Ken,

A suitable solution to ameliorate radiated RFI (such as from a neighbour's PLAs) is to use ferrites on the analogue and digital cables.  I would strongly recommend the ones from Würth Elektronik which can be obtained from CPC Farnell.  This will help alalogue replay such as vinyl as well as streaming - it makes no difference.

I believe that the increasing frequency with which this surfaces is nothing to do with streaming, rather the increase in use of devices in the home that operate using potentially interfering RF energy.  I believe it's more often noticed in the case of streaming in that it's relatively new, so people are looking for solutions, whereas vinyl works the same as it did 40 years ago, so people are less likely to look for new ways to improve it.

Huge posted:

Ken,

A suitable solution to ameliorate radiated RFI (such as from a neighbour's PLAs) is to use ferrites on the analogue and digital cables.  I would strongly recommend the ones from Würth Elektronik which can be obtained from CPC Farnell.  This will help alalogue replay such as vinyl as well as streaming - it makes no difference.

I believe that the increasing frequency with which this surfaces is nothing to do with streaming, rather the increase in use of devices in the home that operate using potentially interfering RF energy.  I believe it's more often noticed in the case of streaming in that it's relatively new, so people are looking for solutions, whereas vinyl works the same as it did 40 years ago, so people are less likely to look for new ways to improve it.

Huge, many thanks. i will keep inmind use of ferrites if i ever needed to. i dont have PLA in my house. of course i dont know whether my neighbour has. does it matter if someone in the same street has them?

i agree that  "... the increasing frequency with which this surfaces is nothing to do with streaming, rather the increase in use of devices in the home that operate using potentially interfering RF energy."

but, earlier on in this thread, Simon mentioned possible impact of protocol noise on streaming sound quality. i know this is nothing to do with PLA and RFIs etc ... but seems to be an issue that arises when streaming music... tough cheese, i guess...

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

ken c posted:

so i have a mixture of shielded and unshielded -- hence my question earlier -- does it matter??

I don't think mixing STP & UTP matters too much other than being careful to only have ONE ground.  

It your LAN the only screened cable will be from Switch to UnitiServe,  & assuming the UnitiServe's  RJ45 port is connected (via the PSU) to earth,  it alone is the only ground connected screen.   It means the screen provides a ground to the switch,  but that will have no effects on the unscreened Meicord(s).   

then what determines choice of whether one uses screened or unscreened cables in ones audio streaming network? sorry if this question has already been answered -- but cant recall...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

then what determines choice of whether one uses screened or unscreened cables in ones audio streaming network? sorry if this question has already been answered -- but cant recall...

 

I answered .............  https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...04#53801014948751304

Huge also posted much the same

Mike-B posted:

ken c posted:

then what determines choice of whether one uses screened or unscreened cables in ones audio streaming network? sorry if this question has already been answered -- but cant recall...

 

I answered .............  https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...04#53801014948751304

Huge also posted much the same

yes, of course, sorry being a bit slow there :-(

from previous photos i posted, i definitely have a section along the pipe boxing where the network cables (to server and NDS) run together with one 10mm sq and one 6mm sq cables -- for about 2.4m -- they are not bound together(!) they just run close. so this would dictate that i need all screened cables ? (and ferrite rings around the net cables?). i have read somewhere, cant remember where exactly, where it is claimed that unscreened cables are better -- makes one wonder how this claim can be made given that it depends a lot on local circumstances -- i guess this is what was/is confusing me. and in my case, if i use screened cables to both NDS and Unitiserve, wont i then have the possibility of multiple earths?

enjoy

ken

this is the latest config now:

the net cables into the switch are not as close to the router as the photo suggests -- as the router is in the recess -- with the cables cover above that, but perhaps, when i have some more time, this is an area i can optimise further -- moving the router elsewhere so that the audio net cables (to NDS and U/Serve) as as far as practical from the router (i am thinking about under the NAS/USB drives). the yellow cable from router to switch is CAT5 UTP. On the sswitch, the blue cable after that (L to R) is the Meicord to NAS -- its not as strained as it looks -- but the repositioning has left it a bit shorter than i'd like. next to that is Meicord to the NDS, then 'ordinary' CAT5e shielded to UnitiServe, then blue cable to Airport Express, etc...

In trying to optimize all this -- as usual, i experienced some conflicting requirements and had to compromise.

1. cant avoid the NDS and UnitiServe cables running close to mains cables in the pipe boxing

2. ended with cables to the switch running rather close to the router -- perhaps better separation will be better

3. the DC power leads to the various boxes run behind the NAS drive -- i dont how important it is to separate this also from network cables -- i believe i have done the bets i can here -- but if this is important, could do better.

i wonder what the view is, amongst you experts, in terms of order of importance amonths these 3?

Well, how does it all sound. Right now, as i say, i am using the Meicords between NAS and switch and between NDS and switch. Original 'ordinary' to Unitiserve.

It sounds very good and if i hadnt heard what it sounded like 2 days -- i would have been very happy with this. Very clear -- bass lines very easy to follow and manifesting a depth that i wasnt aware of before. Also passes the 'Randy Crawford' test -- the electric piano at the begining of 'Tender falls the rain' is not at all exaggerated -- bass is tight and in tune. BUT, there is something missing -- and that is the "interest factor" -- system has lost a little bit of the 'draw you in factor'. As i say, if i hadnt heard what the system is actually capable of last Monday -- then i would have been quite happy with where i am at now. My suspicision is that the Meicord to NDS is probably quite sensitive to running close to mains cables in that pipe box -- whereas perhaps the 'ordinary' cable isnt so senstive? Just  guess. 

fascinating all these network effects...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

from previous photos i posted, i definitely have a section along the pipe boxing where the network cables (to server and NDS) run together with one 10mm sq and one 6mm sq cables -- for about 2.4m -- they are not bound together(!) they just run close. so this would dictate that i need all screened cables ?

Ken,  yes its my understanding its not a good idea to run data & power cables together, but I bet there are more installations done without a care for this than not. And yes screened/shielded cables will help but also worth noting that screened power is more effective at reducing EMI into te ethernet than is screened ethernet.

Other claims that one sounds better than the other is subjective IMO, that said my new MeiCord Cat6's do sound better than my previous Cat7's, but I would say that wouldn't I.   

Mike-B posted:

Looks to be a better cable route around the router Ken.

 

Re your questions ......  

1. cant avoid the NDS and UnitiServe cables running close to mains cables in the pipe boxing

See my previous post

2. ended with cables to the switch running rather close to the router -- perhaps better separation will be better

YES

3. the DC power leads to the various boxes run behind the NAS drive -- i dont how important it is to separate this also from network cables -- i believe i have done the bets i can here -- but if this is important, could do better.

I don't believe this is important

 

Re the Meicord listening - you seem to be picking up on all I have heard - I'm very happy for that - keep on listening 

As for the "draw you in factor",  might be its you that is part of that problem, mood change, fed up with all the cable work, tired  ........  I would try again tomorrow 

Mike, many thanks for staying with me in all these attempts of mine to optimise my streaming set up and for putting up with my noddy questions. You may be right that this process can be tiring -- although the huge bonus for me is that i have learnt a lot in the process -- which is not hard to say because i know naaaaarthing at the beginning anyhow. i continue to be fascinated that this medium, with bit perfect rips -- has so many issues that can get in the way of music!

enjoy...

ken

Ken, your 'journey' with Mike's advice along the way is beneficial to us novice LAN bodgers. These exchanges are invaluable to me (and I suspect many others) so I for one appreciate your diligence and Mike's 'tutoring' along the way.

Many thanks for sharing, it is a valuable learning experience.

nigelb posted:

Ken, your 'journey' with Mike's advice along the way is beneficial to us novice LAN bodgers. These exchanges are invaluable to me (and I suspect many others) so I for one appreciate your diligence and Mike's 'tutoring' along the way.

Many thanks for sharing, it is a valuable learning experience.

Good to hear Nigel, thanks for your input too -- and all the others who have been helping here -- Simon(!) at al...

enjoy

ken

just one more question: is there any maximum network cable length between router and switch, and between NAS and switch -- i.e. do these components have to be physically 'close'?

enjoy

ken