Ethernet cable installation...

ken c posted:

just one more question: is there any maximum network cable length between router and switch, and between NAS and switch -- i.e. do these components have to be physically 'close'?

In a domestic environment ........ No ...........  100m is the normally accepted limit

thanks again Mike...

i have done another iteration re-locating things around the router/switch area as below -- this turned out better, not in terms of sound quality, but just in terms of routing the various cables -- the router is now more separated from the switch -- this is the final config as far as this area is concerned. i must admit i was a bit disappointed that this didnt result in a step change in streamed SQ -- but all part of the course i guess. i made this change late last night but just taken the photo...

(the cable dangling by the clock is the meicord to the NDS -- currently disconnected -- see below)

Then i decided to look behind the pipe boxing just before the cable enter my office -- and here there was a horror of excess net cables lengths (to PC, NDS and Unitserve) carelessly folded and resting on top of the 2 radial cables. I guess the reason why i didnt think to look at this is because i am temporarily running the Meicord above the pipe boxing.

So of course i decided to tidy things up by folding/clipping the net cables as far away from the mains anacondas as possible. i n fact at some point, i will re-install these cables (probably replace them with shorter cables so that i dont have to fold so much excess cable there). I will also possibly consider a different exit point for the net cables, separate from the mains cables.

This is what i ended up with -- and believe you me -- it was a hell of a LOT worse than that before!!! 

This had an impact which i did not anticipate.

Are you sitting down comfortably? Well, then i will tell you...

As i was dressing these net cables -- my system was on NAT01 input on Radio 3 --Barenboim playing some Beethoven piano piece.

I kid you not -- i believe i could hear the effect as i moved the cables around -- the sound became cleaner -- clearer -- sounded like some noise dirt was being wiped off!!! I dont know what it will sound like when i play my NDS. I am too scared to try right now

... Oh by the way, i went back to ordinary net cable instead of Meicord for the switch-NDS connection, i just felt i was missing 'something' when using it, but given the above --there is definitely a return match coming... (especially given that i am still using a meicord for switch-NAS)

Or perhaps i have finally 'lost it' ?

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken - I find the afternoon post timing nicely coincides with my need to stop work and take a break. When your Ethernet exploits have been exhausted, I'll miss your daily musings, the redressing of cables, the delights of that pipe box...

But yes, quite feasible you may have had improvements on FM due to a reduction of low level interference from the re-orientation of the cables. 

I've had my daily update so it's back to work for me... 

You have been having fun !!!  Their is no doubt in my thinking that simple, tidy & shortest does it best for any cable.  I'm struggling to understand how the ethernet moving had an effect on NAT-01 SQ,   unless its aerial coax is mixed in with the ethernet & power runs...... if so that tells me you have low grade or even defective coax & need to get some WF100 satellite grade - but that's another project.  

I have every confidence that when you do have the Meicord return match,  it will all become clear which is the better cable.  

james n posted:

Hi Ken - I find the afternoon post timing nicely coincides with my need to stop work and take a break. When your Ethernet exploits have been exhausted, I'll miss your daily musings, the redressing of cables, the delights of that pipe box...

But yes, quite feasible you may have had improvements on FM due to a reduction of low level interference from the re-orientation of the cables. 

I've had my daily update so it's back to work for me... 

Ha ha... i hope its all useful anyhow james -- if its also entertaining, better still...

i am slo astounded by the effects on Radio -- but as i say, this could just be some imagined effect -- though i doubt it --i can still detect the effect right now. but of course the reason may be totally nothing to do with all ethernet cable messing about... some coincidence...

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

You have been having fun !!!  Their is no doubt in my thinking that simple, tidy & shortest does it best for any cable.  I'm struggling to understand how the ethernet moving had an effect on NAT-01 SQ,   unless its aerial coax is mixed in with the ethernet & power runs...... if so that tells me you have low grade or even defective coax & need to get some WF100 satellite grade - but that's another project.  

I have every confidence that when you do have the Meicord return match,  it will all become clear which is the better cable.  

Fun? not sure -- but its great to find something of significance. i am actually shocked at how poor the net cables were  carelessly  bunched on and around the thick mains radial cables! and why have them so long that i have to bunch them up inside that pipe box anyhow. when i saw the cables, i remembered that these were cables i used when i was living in a flat in cph where the b/band router was located quite far from my workstation and i needed about 30' lengths!! really, i shouldnt have redeployed them -- but when i did this -- i didnt know as much as i (think) know now -- still very little mind you ...

now you mention radio coax -- i actually have WF100 as i intended to get the current one replaced. but then i found out that the guy who used to do it recommended by Ron Smith's doesnt do it anymore.  so ihave yet to find someone else who will be able to do it to the same quality as Ron Smiths contact.  do you know any? this is an outstanding action item in my system setup.

it never ends ... :-)

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Any aerial installer will rewire a down lead,  someone who's local & has a good reputation etc..

Just tell them it must be Webro WF100.  

While you're at it have a think about replacing the wall outlet with "F" type,    far better than those 'orid Belling Lee things,  I use them everywhere,  my only Belling Lee is the NAT connection & even that is a bit non-standard.

 

Be sure to tell them the correct Ron Smith "polarity" connection to the loop - core to the right terminal

as i say, i already have the WF100 coax cable -- just waiting to find a "good" installer who will not ruin my set up.

today, the down lead is terminated by coax plug which i connect to the back of the NAT01 head unit. i dont fullunderstand the purpose of the F-type you mention and kindly provided a picture?

thanks for the very important little piece of detail  'core to right terminal' !!!

been thinking about why the sound of whole system changed so significantly after sorting out the cable mess. an additional (perhaps alternative even) explanation is that the net cables were injecting some kind of noise into the radial cables -- and explains why, as i moved ethernet cables about -- i got somewhat mixed results which were somewhat difficult to attribute.

so my preference for the bog std cable over the Meicord MAY in fact be invalid -- (the dangers of attributing cause and effect!!) but i will of course be able to determine one way or the other for sure when i play NDS. At some point, i might also revisit the AQ Cinnamon (after all thats the title of the thread!!) -- but i will probably wait until i have figured a way to better separate net cables and mains radials.

For immediate interest, later tonite, i will also check the vinyl side -- as i expect this will have improved too -- yummy!!! 

Oh my, what fun!!

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken,   the "traditional" UK coax push-plug connector for TV & FM is the Belling-Lee, an old design originally for Medium & Short wave antenna's & has a limit of aprx 500MHz.

The "F" type connector is a coax screw fitting connector growing in popularity for terrestrial & cable TV & is used universally for satellite TV.  It has excellent 75 ohm impedance for frequencies well over 1GHz.   They are easy to install for the home DIY'er & are less prone to installer error than the Belling Lee plugs.  Also available are fittings for crimp tool fitting most commonly used by installers. Their are many different fittings, straight, angled, couplers & Belling Lee adaptors.

thanks Mike for bringing this to my attention. i certainly didnt know about this better alternative although i think i may have sen it browsing around RS website -- but didnt give it a look in. i might ask my dealer to help me out with the aerial down lead and these special connectors.

I have just had a vinyl session. OK, i know we get over excited sometimes describing our systems in all sorts of colourful ways -- so i guess i will just say, this is probably the best i have ever heard vinyl side of my system sounding.

involvement? the sysem is now grabbing me by the collar and demanding that i pay attention and listen!!!

so in fact, the impact of that cable tidy-up was across the system, not restricted to NAT01.

i havent played the NDS yet -- i am for some odd reason a little hesitant -- i guess i dont want my expectations to be dashed -- but i believe this is going to be special too --and this is still with the ordinary cable connecting it to the switch.

we'll see... thanks for sticking with me guys...

enjoy

ken

Come on Ken, listen to the NDS, the suspense is killing me.

Also looking forward to your views of different ethernet cables on the NDS to switch link. 

I upgraded from Audioquest to Chord Sarum Ethernet cable. At that time huge difference. 

After I added the Melco, I couldn't hear any difference between Ethernet cables (Audioques/Chord/cable/the one who was in the Melco Box). 

Interesting. 

//Jonas

Jonas, have you compared the sound using your UPnP source to reading the files directly from a USB memory stick? 

nigelb posted:

Come on Ken, listen to the NDS, the suspense is killing me.

Also looking forward to your views of different ethernet cables on the NDS to switch link. 

sorry Nigel, i have been getting very inconsistent results -- not worth reporting here. will come back when i have 'straightened'(!) out a few things...

enjoy

ken

Good stuff Ken - sounds like you are having fun 

ken c posted:

nigelb posted:

Come on Ken, listen to the NDS, the suspense is killing me.

Also looking forward to your views of different ethernet cables on the NDS to switch link. 

sorry Nigel, i have been getting very inconsistent results -- not worth reporting here. will come back when i have 'straightened'(!) out a few things...

enjoy

ken

Sorry for my impatience but this thread is very interesting to me. Any tips/experiences that can help 'optimise' our LANs tend to be low cost/free and can have a significant effect on SQ.

Good luck with your 'straightening' and I look forward to your findings Ken.

Ken - absolutely - Ethernet from noisy switches can cause issues with FM (and other radio reception). I had all sorts of issues with a little Netgear switch causing issues (low level birdies from intermodulation) with a NAT03 and NAT05 on certain frequencies.

Rerouting the switch power supply and ethernet leads as well as plenty of ferrite chokes and using a different switch cured it!!... eventually.

Simon

Ken,  Simon's post on noisy switches is not yet another hurdle,  you were already planning to change your Netgear switch SMPS to the iFi iPower - same as NigelB, HH & myself. 

Tidying cables & ethernet is all part of your existing plan. 

The iPower has settled in very nicely, my inky blackness is now blacker and inkier than ever. Seriously though, it is jolly good. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ken - absolutely - Ethernet from noisy switches can cause issues with FM (and other radio reception). I had all sorts of issues with a little Netgear switch causing issues (low level birdies from intermodulation) with a NAT03 and NAT05 on certain frequencies.

Rerouting the switch power supply and ethernet leads as well as plenty of ferrite chokes and using a different switch cured it!!... eventually.

Simon

Nigel/Simon,

Thanks for your encouragement guys. One preliminary conclusion that i think is quite definite is that, provided you sort any cross-interference between mains and ethernet cables, 'ordinary' ethernet cables, such as the ones i have between Unitiserve-switch, and NDS-switch -- perform extremely well. In fact the two best sessions i have had so far were with ordinary cables.

And this was, i believe, a result of dressing  up net cables in the pipe box which were all bunched up and rather untidy. Encouraged by these results, i decided to tidy up the complete run of net cables from switch to server and streamer -- and this is when things started going pear shaped.Initially. The system sounded very mediocre after that.  And this is with either Meicord or 'ordinary'  -- the ordinary one.

(An aside, i have found the invoice for the cables i am using -- bought from Cables 2U -- ridiculously cheap, relatively!!!

Hmmmm...

Then i noticed that i had probably gone too far in 'neatening' the net cable runs; i now had the net cables effectively running almost perfectly parallel to the mains radials. Now, from what i recall a long time ago at school physics -- this probably actually maximises the electromagnetic effect -- and hence possibly generate all sorts of interference effects and consequent noise. 

Then i thought, maybe i should destroy this parallelism a bit -- and the result is as below. you can see the mains radials running along the bottom of the pipe box.

Did this improve things?  Somewhat suprisingly -- unfortunately not...

OK, back to drawing board. I now need to be clear that there is nothing else that i changed in the process that may be causing the mediocre performance. i know I got so carried away trying the make things 'neat' after initial results that i may have unwittingly done something wrong in the process. 

So, in fact this thread has in fact turned out to be NOT really about comparing net cables -- IMV not really that useful an exercise anyhow given the absolutely breathtaking results i got with el-cheapo ordinary cables. (though i like the "look" and "design" of the meicord and would use it for that reason -- but, from my experience so far, the case for better sound quality is unproven -- jury is till out in my case -- of course in other systems -- the result could be much more definitive -- this is the nature of this business).

trying to retrace my steps now -- a bit hard -- but i know i will get there. will start with a reboot when i have a moment.

so, moral of the story i guess could be: often, less is more...

thanks for your interest guys...

enjoy...

ken

Mike-B posted:

Ken,  Simon's post on noisy switches is not yet another hurdle,  you were already planning to change your Netgear switch SMPS to the iFi iPower - same as NigelB, HH & myself. 

Tidying cables & ethernet is all part of your existing plan. 

 

Yes Mike. The iFi Power is on order -- in fact i was expectng it to be delivered yesterday -- its taking longer than i expected -- buy hey...

re: "tidying cables" -- the pendulum has wung too far the wrong side for me on this. and i believe the complication is likely caused by proximity of mains cable runs.  the fact that my system worked very well before all this 'tidying' suggests to me that, luckily, i just managed to have the cables so randomly bunched around mains that any negative effect from this was somehow 'cancelled'? Just a conjecture...

enjoy

ken

Hungryhalibut posted:

The iPower has settled in very nicely, my inky blackness is now blacker and inkier than ever. Seriously though, it is jolly good. 

I replaced the power supply on my Netgear switch with the IFi I power and it did clear up the sound a tad. But there was an added "sheen" and the treble sounded over emphasised.I replaced it with the original Netgear supply and balanced was restored, for a slight reduction in detail. So the iPower supply will be returned as the negatives outweighed the positives.

Hungryhalibut posted:

The iPower has settled in very nicely, my inky blackness is now blacker and inkier than ever. Seriously though, it is jolly good. 

.......... & not overlooking that Halibut's know all about ink,  inky black squid ink    

Ken - looking at the ethernet cable routing, I am not surprised it did not really bring improvements.

Is there any option for you to run the cable UNDER the floorboards? I do realise it sounds a bit scary, but... you will be as far away from the mains as possible.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Ken - looking at the ethernet cable routing, I am not surprised it did not really bring improvements.

Is there any option for you to run the cable UNDER the floorboards? I do realise it sounds a bit scary, but... you will be as far away from the mains as possible.

'fraid not. concrete floor in our conservatory ... but thanks for suggestion Adam :-)

enjoy

ken