Ethernet cable installation...

Underneath the skirting boards perhaps? (corners would be a problem though....)

yes, corners would be an issue -- but i guess i might test this out, if only temporarily, at some point if i fail to retrace and improve things. thanks again...

enjoy

ken

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

....

Rerouting the switch power supply and ethernet leads as well as plenty of ferrite chokes and using a different switch cured it!!... eventually.

Simon

i guess i could say i have already done the 're-routing' to death. but ferrite chokes is not something i have ever tried anyway in my system. i guess there is always a 1st time :-)

enjoy

ken

Ken,

To identify if the close proximity of the ethernet cables to the mains spur cables is indeed the issue causing the poor results, could you try un-tieing the ethernet cables and let them hang (temporarily) below the pipe boxing away from the mains cables and see if there is s difference. If it does improve things then you have probably identified the issue but it of course leave you with the problem of changing the cable routing. If it makes no difference then back to the drawing board.

Apologies if you have either tried this already or are getting irritated with all the fettling.

Cheers

Nigel

nigelb posted:

Ken,

To identify if the close proximity of the ethernet cables to the mains spur cables is indeed the issue causing the poor results, could you try un-tieing the ethernet cables and let them hang (temporarily) below the pipe boxing away from the mains cables and see if there is s difference. If it does improve things then you have probably identified the issue but it of course leave you with the problem of changing the cable routing. If it makes no difference then back to the drawing board.

Apologies if you have either tried this already or are getting irritated with all the fettling.

Cheers

Nigel

yes, i have tried this -- in fact the net cables are outside the pipe boxing right now -- but the three are still cable tied together -- 2 net cables(nds and server) plus 1 cable to my workstation in my office. they were not cable tied together before so i could try to untie them in addition i guess. i am not getting irritated at all -- challenged yes, but one way or the other, i will get to the bottom of it... i just need to be clear about what it is that i did to trigger whats happening now. 'too tidy' dressing is one tenuous theory -- scratching around for other possible causes.

by the way, would shielded cables minimise the interaction with mains cables then?

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

nigelb posted:

Ken,

To identify if the close proximity of the ethernet cables to the mains spur cables is indeed the issue causing the poor results, could you try un-tieing the ethernet cables and let them hang (temporarily) below the pipe boxing away from the mains cables and see if there is s difference. If it does improve things then you have probably identified the issue but it of course leave you with the problem of changing the cable routing. If it makes no difference then back to the drawing board.

Apologies if you have either tried this already or are getting irritated with all the fettling.

Cheers

Nigel

yes, i have tried this -- in fact the net cables are outside the pipe boxing right now -- but the three are still cable tied together -- 2 net cables(nds and server) plus 1 cable to my workstation in my office. they were not cable tied together before so i could try to untie them in addition i guess. i am not getting irritated at all -- challenged yes, but one way or the other, i will get to the bottom of it... i just need to be clear about what it is that i did to trigger whats happening now. 'too tidy' dressing is one tenuous theory -- scratching around for other possible causes.

by the way, would shielded cables minimise the interaction with mains cables then?

enjoy

ken

That's the spirit Ken, don't let these wretched cables beat you!

Regarding the suggestion that shielded ethernet cables might be better in minimising the interaction/noise induced from the mains cables, possibly they would because this is one of the rationales behind shielding. But there is only one way to test this in your arrangement! Yes, more fettling. I know you have some AQ Cinnamon which of course is shielded but not sure if you have sufficient length of this cable to test the theory. You might test Cinnamon in one or two sections to see. As AQ Cinnamon is a little expensive, I would test the lengths you have (where ethernet runs closest to mains in your arrangement if that is possible) and see if it makes any difference rather than shell out more money on a theory. Of course there is the potential interaction of the three unshielded ethernet cables tied together. Mike is this possible?

You have clearly discounted the possibility of poor performance from your low cost ethernet cables because you have had good results from them already. It is however possible that these low cost cables are more susceptible to the ingress of noise, possibly from the thing you have done that you are trying to identify that is causing the poor results. I am not suggesting you go out and spend more dosh on posh ethernet cables but maybe look to these cables first and how you have changed/moved them and others in close proximity to them first.

I am sure Mike will have more technical knowledge than I and might save you some work if my suggestions are unsound.

I am glad you see this as a challenge rather than a chore. 

Please keep us updated.

Cheers

Nigel(B)

Yes screened cables will help,  but I am far from convinced your problem is mains cables interacting with the ethernet.  The twisted pairs of ethernet reject EMI.  It might be a problem if in heavy & variable current surge areas,  but yours are carrying very low & unvarying current,  so I doubt anything much from the mains is causing whatever it is you are not happy with.   If the ethernets hanging loose are a few (4 to 8)  inches away from them & you still think you hear a problem,  then you need to look elsewhere.

Ken, another thought.

Try and physically separate the (unscreened) ethernet cable running to your work station by un-tieing it from the two unscreened ethernet cables running to your audio gear as this is one is presumably connected to a PC and will potentially be carrying a lot of traffic and potentially noise from your PC. Let's face it, this is why we introduce a switch to connect to our audio equipment to separate it from all the other household/office traffic/noise. I have absolutely no technical knowledge to support this theory but it is simple to do and might reveal something. 

Mike-B posted:

Yes screened cables will help,  but I am far from convinced your problem is mains cables interacting with the ethernet.  The twisted pairs of ethernet reject EMI.  It might be a problem if in heavy & variable current surge areas,  but yours are carrying very low & unvarying current,  so I doubt anything much from the mains is causing whatever it is you are not happy with.   If the ethernets hanging loose are a few (4 to 8)  inches away from them & you still think you hear a problem,  then you need to look elsewhere.

Mike, thanks. Could you please comment on my wild conjecture that running the net cables in parallel with the mains radials and about 12cm apart is NOt worse than the non-parallel setup that i show in the last picture i posted. if i understand you correctly, i believe you are saying running parallel should not be a issue, right?

enjoy

ken

nigelb posted:

Ken, another thought.

Try and physically separate the (unscreened) ethernet cable running to your work station by un-tieing it from the two unscreened ethernet cables running to your audio gear as this is one is presumably connected to a PC and will potentially be carrying a lot of traffic and potentially noise from your PC. Let's face it, this is why we introduce a switch to connect to our audio equipment to separate it from all the other household/office traffic/noise. I have absolutely no technical knowledge to support this theory but it is simple to do and might reveal something. 

Nigel, many thanks. This is definitely worth trying and you rationale for it makes sense to me. especially given that the cables were not at all tied in the configs that worked -- another example of me trying to over-neaten things, and paying for it by destroying what seems like a delicate interaction balance between these cables :-(

i will run another cheapo 15M UTP cable that i have (from maplin) from router to office w/s along the floor temporarily and assess impact.

By the way, really scratching the bottom of the barrel, i noticed a somewhat prominent fold in the cable from switch to unitiserve. i doubt there is any issue here -- but i have replaced this cable with the AQ cinnamon now -- it was long enough. Now i can stop worrying about possible cable damage.

now its:

AQ Cinnamon: switch-Unitiserve

Meicord: switch to NDS

Meicord: switch to Netgear ReadyNas Duo.

A variety of patch UTP cables connecting switch to router,  router to airport express, router to modem and router to local laptop in conservatory (i.e. in addition to w/s in office).

all this will be worthwhile if i could identify some fundamental principle out of it. other than the somewhat tenuous 'overdressing' one i mentioned earlier... Oh my...

enjoy...

ken

Hi Ken, let me sympathise.. When I was resolving my FM / Ethernet issue it was really frustrating .. and I felt I should know all this stuff !! So I ended up pressuring myself on this..

as far as your situation.. You had a very good wiring setup, albeit untidy?? Can you go back to that and then do baby steps to see what breaks it?

As far as interference with Ethernet and mains, often the interference is common mode RF from the Ethernet cable (doesn't matter if shielded or not as the RF is common mode) modulating into the mains.

So another test to see if this is the case .. Listen to some audio not from your streamer... Turn the network off by powering the switches down.. does the audio change? If so focus on shielding the mains cable or use metal trunking .. if not and no difference then focus on the network cables.. and try those baby steps... One idea might be use some shielded/metal  trunking if you need to route with the mains, and just loosely put the Ethernet leads in the metal trunking... another idea is to terminate your Ethernet lead into an earthed quality edge switch such as an internally powered Cisco 2960 and then have patch leads from this to your audio equipment.... And you might even consider a fibre link between the central switch and edge switch...I think in your circumstance that would be one of my options.. It will cost a little more but not huge in the scheme of things.

Good game!!! It will be worth it in the end...

Just to give you an idea of fibre prices... and as you can see often cheaper than copper.. you just need to ensure you have compatible switches each end  or devices with the same SFP transceiver module. So far fibre has not caught on in the audiophile market so prices are still normal IT prices... 

http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/s...ype-os1_9_125_yellow

and where you use it RFI and electrical noise are banished for ever on that particular link.....

I can vouch for the benefits of a fibre link to my audio system. Andrew Everard also has two good write-ups in his blog, the latest relaying his experience with a fibre link to his NDS.  Seems to eliminate 'telegraphing' of noise from the upstream end, wifi pickup as a big factor, and provide a quieter interface to the audio system.  Markedly better than a Cu connection .. String quartets sound like proper instruments, and classic jazz like live performances.

We've both used TPLink media converters .. MC100CM for 100Mbit, MC200CM for 1G.  One caution .. Being simple devices they rely on the correct clocking speed being set on their client's interfaces  and don't auto-sense. So need to think through the config carefully....

Cost me around GBP 80 for the two converters and 15 multi-mode fibre, only drawback is it comes in one colour  - aqua.  And around GBP 240 for my linear PSU at the audio end.  Quite good value cf exotic cables - I use C-Stream for local connections to good effect.  

Well worth considering....

ken c posted:

Mike, thanks. Could you please comment on my wild conjecture that running the net cables in parallel with the mains radials and about 12cm apart is NOt worse than the non-parallel setup that i show in the last picture i posted. if i understand you correctly, i believe you are saying running parallel should not be a issue, right?

 

This thread is entitled 'Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet Cable' but most of the valuable discussion now is about good practice in setting up and optimising LANs. I fear that many on the forum won't have the benefit of these exchanges merely because the thread's title is now misleading.

As, IMHO, this is an important topic (that many are oblivious to) might I suggest to the moderator that he moves it to another more appropriately entitled thread. Failing this, Ken you might consider opening a new thread with a more relevant title to continue these exchanges. I just think it is too important to others on here to potentially miss out on.

Just a thought.

Suggested title: Streaming network - good practice

Or something along this lines...

I've "reported" it the moderator(s)    lets see what happens 

+1 I am considering a fibre network and would be grateful for a thread to exchange thoughts/ideas through.

Dan - I have a full Cat6 network at home. Happy to share my experiences. 

No 1: you can never have too many ethernet sockets in one room. Whatever you plan - add at least one or two more. 

Hi Adam,

Thank you.

Here goes.......I have Cat6 running throughout at the moment and considering a dedicated non-internet network for fibre. I don't really need internet connection for audio (streaming or radio) so might run just a local network for the playback only, I don't really listen to internet radio. But it is an option. I can set up a router that is for audio only minus internet via a spare Netgear D6300 I have. The iPad for playback of the library can connect to this network also.

Is it better to run fibre for audio only playback but at some point you'll need to connect Cat6 (or your chosen cat?) to fibre convertors thus providing a pinch point, or weak point? Is converting to fibre really any use if you are using ethernet/Cat6 at the ends of that fibre run?

Is a dedicated network unconnected to internet worthwhile for 24/16bit WAV audio only playback?

I'll test of course but it is always good to hear if others have gone a route you are considering? Might be over thinking too, and is loosing internet causing any issues with apps etc I am not getting right?

OR

Take internet in as is set up now but use Netgear 1GbE switch for fibre as a separate audio spur, with one Cat6 connecting the 1GbE switch to the incoming router switch? Fibre from that point. Would I then be best with what Cat6 from the router to the switch?

Mike-B posted:

I've "reported" it the moderator(s)    lets see what happens 

I can't move thread content around like with the old forum.  By all means start a new one though and cut and paste what you need from the old.

Hi Richard,  it was not a thread move that's wanted,  just a title edit/change to remove the AQ Cinnamon reference,  something like Ethernet Installation is OK,  but if NoCanDo  ...... OK

Mike-B posted:

ken c posted:

Mike, thanks. Could you please comment on my wild conjecture that running the net cables in parallel with the mains radials and about 12cm apart is NOt worse than the non-parallel setup that i show in the last picture i posted. if i understand you correctly, i believe you are saying running parallel should not be a issue, right?

 

I really cannot say Ken & no one can without some expensive test equipment in hand & in your house. However having read up on this & talked to someone who designs & manages large building installations,  I doubt whatever it is you are hearing is caused by mains interference.   Building regs recommend 20cm separation in distribution systems (trucking) but permits a section of no separation for the last 15m. 

The building guy said once in a typical office room the power, telecoms & data invariably share a trucking system (normally with separators) around the walls and/or floor ...........  see pics  .......... & the ethernet is invariably always UTP.

To say again,  your mains are carrying very low current & does not have any high current surges connected with high inductive loads.  So I don't believe a screened cable will be that much help. & also as I've said before any screening is more effective on the power cable, or power cable is carried in an earthed conduit. Plus see Simon's note on common mode EM/RF noise.

Finally,  can you please reconfirm what exactly are you concerned with,  what is wrong with the SQ you have as I might be loosing sight of the dragon we are chasing.

 

    

thanks Mike. My suspicion was more that the net cables were somehow affecting mains, and, if i understand correctly, this seems to be what  Simon is saying also.

As for symptom: its a thinner sounds, lacking in clarity (subjectively suggesting noise) thin tonality, bass subjectively lacking, not as  tuneful and not as easy to follow. treble tendency to splash somewhat.

I have had similar symptoms before and then it was loose earth connection on one of the sockets to the hifi.

Moving the net cable to the w/s improved things a bit -- but its still suboptimal -- i.e. nowhere near the breathtaking level i have experienced before and reported.

I am not going to do any more experiments today -- need to leave this for a while and get on with some overdue work -- but thanks a lot guys. I agree that a re-titling or starting a separate thread is probablya good thing at this stage so we can focus on audio net set up issues.

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Any aerial installer will rewire a down lead,  someone who's local & has a good reputation etc..

Just tell them it must be Webro WF100.  

While you're at it have a think about replacing the wall outlet with "F" type,    far better than those 'orid Belling Lee things,  I use them everywhere,  my only Belling Lee is the NAT connection & even that is a bit non-standard.

 

Mike, an aside -- i would like to discuss this with you over email. the right angle entry would be a big advantage as this would make it easier for the NAT01 aerial connection on a Fraim because of the hind Fraim leg.

Please email me -- my email address, suitably disguised from harvesters, is in my profile. many thanks.

enjoy

ken

Dan43 posted:

Hi Adam,

Thank you.

Here goes.......I have Cat6 running throughout at the moment and considering a dedicated non-internet network for fibre. I don't really need internet connection for audio (streaming or radio) so might run just a local network for the playback only, I don't really listen to internet radio. But it is an option. I can set up a router that is for audio only minus internet via a spare Netgear D6300 I have. The iPad for playback of the library can connect to this network also.

Is it better to run fibre for audio only playback but at some point you'll need to connect Cat6 (or your chosen cat?) to fibre convertors thus providing a pinch point, or weak point? Is converting to fibre really any use if you are using ethernet/Cat6 at the ends of that fibre run?

Is a dedicated network unconnected to internet worthwhile for 24/16bit WAV audio only playback?

I'll test of course but it is always good to hear if others have gone a route you are considering? Might be over thinking too, and is loosing internet causing any issues with apps etc I am not getting right?

OR

Take internet in as is set up now but use Netgear 1GbE switch for fibre as a separate audio spur, with one Cat6 connecting the 1GbE switch to the incoming router switch? Fibre from that point. Would I then be best with what Cat6 from the router to the switch?

 

Hi Dan

A lot of questions And it seems you already have answered most of them.

Few points to note:

• If you decide to build a dedicated network, might as well make it as universal as possible. Do not limit yourself now, just because you only want to play some music.
• Hi res audio is here to stay, so don't assume you will only be playing 44.1 kHz/16 bit files through it
• As to what gear to use - as fool proof and maintenace free as possible.

Adam