Ethernet cable installation...

Good advice above on future proofing - especially if you need to some 'building' work to accommodate. My  suggestion is to use some sort of plastic trunking with access points at key points so you can replace copper with fibre at some point - or add a parallel run of copper cable for bonded connection or even resilience.

My view is don't get hung up with fancy cables for the ducting. Leave your fancy cables for the patch leads at the end or edge. Cat 5e or Cat 6 if you really feel you should is fine for the ducting.

Simon 

ken c posted:  

Mike, an aside -- i would like to discuss this with you over email. the right angle entry would be a big advantage as this would make it easier for the NAT01 aerial connection on a Fraim because of the hind Fraim leg.

Please email me -- my email address, suitably disguised from harvesters, is in my profile. many thanks.

DONE  ........  see your e-mail

Mike-B posted:

DONE  ........  see your e-mail

Mike, many thanks...

enjoy/ken

did a random google trawl for something like 'mains running together with ethernet cables' and there is actually a LOT of information/experiences on that. most do not recommend, unless remedial action for the conseqúent interference/noise is taken. interestingly, when i looked, there wasnt that much information on audio ethernet running together with net cables to things like PCs. For me, this resulted in a definite positive difference  when i temporarily seperated them.

Si, i really need to think about cable runs now from the switch/router to the server and NDS but while preserving the domestic look of our conversatory. Going to be tricky... Will try a few idea next week...

enjoy

ken

You can always run the cable(s) on an external wall too Ken if that makes it easier to separate things ? 

Ken,  further my post on the regulation separation per EN 50174-2

I've found another (EMC) Directive 2004/108/EC which says exactly the same

But remember this is for large installations with extreme cables lengths.  & it repeats that a section of no separation is allowed for the last 15m of a run, i.e. your situation.

However, whilst not convinced on this being a problem, to eliminate the possibility: as you have the space in the wood cornice trucking, is it possible to install a section of 50mm steel (earthed) (open topped) trucking. It does not need to be a complete section,  just were its easy to get to & that will help isolate a significant section of the close proximity cable run. You can idealy place the power cable in the trucking,   or for lesser effect, the ethernet.

nigelb posted:

Mike, my LAN stuff (router, switch, server) is physically apart from my Naim black boxes they but are plugged into a power strip which in turn is plugged into the wall socket next to the wall socket my Naim black box power strip is plugged into.

I know this is not ideal and was planning to re-route the LAN gear power strip to plug into another wall socket in another room on another ring main (presumably) to (electrically) separate Naim and LAN gear as I know LAN stuff, particularly switches and SMPS wall warts can inject noise into the mains and thereby potentially transmitted to the streamer (NDS).

The problem for me that you have just raised (and I expected might be an issue) is that to achieve the re-routing of the LAN gear power strip, I would need to run the power strip's power lead parallel and next to the Ethernet cable that comes from my iMac to the router for a distance of about 4 m. I was planning to use a Supra LoRad power lead for the LAN gear power strip because of its shielded construction but am now no so sure it is a good idea, even though the PC Ethernet lead is possibly less of an issues as those running in and out of the switch and this cable (iMac to router) is a AQ Cinnamon which of course is also shielded. 

So it is the lesser of the two following evils:

Naim gear and LAN gear plugged into the same wall socket via separate power strips OR

PC to switch ethernet cable (shielded) running next to a power strip power lead which would also be shielded for 4m.

Now I know the obvious answer is to buy a Supra LoRad power lead and try both arrangements but I wondered if you had some intuitive advice as to which is the lesser of the two evils.

Really appreciate your advice as always.

 

Mike-B posted:

Hi NigelB,    my tu'pence worth & strictly intuitive is I would choose your second choice - the 4m run - to gain the better separation of potential SMPS interference

Using screened ethernet is one half of the solution - provided its grounded correctly.

An STP LAN must be grounded,  but only at ONE point. The obvious ground is the NDS, but that means the switch to NDS must be STP (Cat6A or Cat7)

I see one obvious problem in that you say "the ethernet from iMac to router".   I'm pretty sure the iMac RJ45 is not grounded & also the same for the "router".   So your AQ Cinnamon is not grounded anywhere.   OK thats not a disaster as the screen will still have some EMI rejection properties. 

Re Supra Lorad,  you can also use regular braided shield mains cable, this is a bit more fiddly as it needs the braid to be connected to the 13 amp earth pin at the "in" end only.   Supra Lorad is much simpler as it ground the screen along its entire length via the earth wires semi-conductive insulation.  I know it works for me as my cable sniffer can't detect it (see the Supra Lorad advertising) & it is CE approved.  

So with a screened & grounded power cable,  plus a screened but not grounded ethernet,  it may not be so bad   ......  & more so as the iMac cable goes to the router &  not to the audio switch. 

As the issue of mixing mains cables and Ethernet cables has reared its ugly head with Ken, I thought I would post my findings relating to the above dilemma.

I took Mike's and Adam's advice and moved the power outlet into which my power strip for the LAN gear (switch, Unitiserve & router) is plugged (which is the socket which is immediately next to the Naim gear power strip plug) to a power outlet in a different room and on a different ring main to that the the Naim gear is plugged into. So my LAN gear power strip and my Naim gear power strip are plugged in to entirely different ring mains now. The downside of this arrangement however is that the power cord for the LAN power strip runs next to the ethernet cables that run from iMac to router and from Sky box to router. I have therefore installed a Supra LoRad power cable to the LAN power strip which is screened to minimise noise pollution. 

I also took the opportunity to tidy up mains leads (AC and DC) and Ethernet cabling behind the LAN gear rack putting as much distance between mains cables and Ethernet cables.

So was it worth it? Oh my, it certainly was! I realise now that I am in danger of loosing any credibility I might have built up on here but here goes. This simple bit of housekeeping has brought a significant improvement in almost all departments. What has particularly struck me is the crystal clear treble. Cymbals now shimmer and ting with greater realism (rather than tizz), vocals have a cleaner, more articulate edge but it is the sum of several areas of improvement is the most impressive, which is I find impossible to put into words. It is like more of the same improvement I heard when going from the 282 to the 252. Yes, more of that, a very good thing!

OK, time for a disclaimer. It is NOT night and day, but it is significant (I think the common phrase is 'not subltle'). All I did was separate the sockets where my LAN and Naim power strips are plugged into, added a LoRad mains lead to the LAN power strip and did a bit of judicious cable dressing. 

So lessons learned:

Physically separate your Naim gear from you LAN gear.

Physically and electrically separate mains and Ethernet cables as much as possible.

Plug your LAN gear into an entirely separate ring main to that of your Naim gear.

Use screened mains leads to protect against the ingress of noise from network devices and their SMPSs. For me this meant the power lead to the LAN power strip.

Get a little obsessive about cable dressing, particularly in separating ethernet and mains cables.

The degree of improvement I am hearing from these simple steps just serves to reinforce my view that we don't know enough about precautions needed to minimise noise in our LANs, often blindly spending more and more on black boxes before we have optimised our existing streaming systems. Food for thought maybe?

Once again many thanks to Mike and Adam for the advice, it is invaluable. 

james n posted:

You can always run the cable(s) on an external wall too Ken if that makes it easier to separate things ? 

unffortunately not -with the way our conservatory  is set up. And in any case, thsi would need very long internet cables -- which i suspect will introduce other issues -- but this option is worth keeping in mind in case all else fails.

many thanks james

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Ken,  further my post on the regulation separation per EN 50174-2

I've found another (EMC) Directive 2004/108/EC which says exactly the same

But remember this is for large installations with extreme cables lengths.  & it repeats that a section of no separation is allowed for the last 15m of a run, i.e. your situation.

However, whilst not convinced on this being a problem, to eliminate the possibility: as you have the space in the wood cornice trucking, is it possible to install a section of 50mm steel (earthed) (open topped) trucking. It does not need to be a complete section,  just were its easy to get to & that will help isolate a significant section of the close proximity cable run. You can idealy place the power cable in the trucking,   or for lesser effect, the ethernet.

 

yet another option -- thanks Mike.  what this would require for me is to disconnect the mains cables so that i can then run them inside the steel conduits and then be free to run ethernet cables in the same pipe boxing. i am also having a bit of a hard time imagining what the trunking will look like -- that stuff i have googled looks like just steel tubes -- so i dont understand the significance of   'open topped'

am i correct that these regulations areintended for EMC issues only. i suspect that the requirements for audio may be even tighter??

enjoy

ken

nigelb posted:

The degree of improvement I am hearing from these simple steps just serves to reinforce my view that we don't know enough about precautions needed to minimise noise in our LANs, often blindly spending more and more on black boxes before we have optimised our existing streaming systems. Food for thought maybe?

Once again many thanks to Mike and Adam for the advice, it is invaluable. 

+ 1 for the valuable input from Mike et al here...!!

yes, it does feel like we are trying to find our way in the dark -- but hopefully the empirical tests that we are all doing will help with better understanding and hopefully better solutions in the context of audio in the home. the obvious constraints for home are that you dont want your LAN installation to look like a company's net room -- still has to look domestic -- and thats what makes things difficult.

i will not be able to do any experiments till next week -- probably a good thing -- too many can easily confuse the picture.

i am still astounded how/why my setup ever worked at all with all the very bad ethernet cable dressing. but as i suggested before -- this probably canvelled out any noise by the random placement/folding of excess cable lengths!!!

as i mentioned before, i am using meicord between switch and NDS. but its likely i will remove this and use an elcheapo from Maplin. why??? the cheaper cable is much much easier to maipulate round corners -- meicord isnt. the meicord is very well made thought -- its a bit that its so stiff...

enjoy

ken

Ken, I am listening to a few toons after my fettling as detailed above and I am quite frankly staggered by what I am hearing. My system has never sounded this good and I can only put it down to the ethernet/mains fettling. I am only guessing but I suspect you are going through a similar process to me but have different arrangements and also have the issue if ethernet cables running next to the mains spur cables to contend with.

I realise you have physical constraints over cable routing but try to follow my 'lessons learned' detailed above if at all possible, it worked wonders is my streaming system. Probably best to leave this till next week as you suggest to have a clear run at it having first evaluated what you have achieved so far.

Ken,  re:  am i correct that these regulations areintended for EMC issues only. i suspect that the requirements for audio may be even tighter??

YES these regs cover EMC,  but NO there are no regs or requirements that I can find for audio,  only myth & speculation, & that is what I am speculating with.  I'm not convinced all this will fix whatever your problem is.  There is no such thing as specific for audio,  its data pure & simple, its carried in ethernet & as such its all included in these (various) EMC & cable stnd. regs.   

This what you get in every office/lab/workshop electrical layout in the country,  power down the middle,  with data & telecoms on each side,  & 100's of metres of it,  not just a few feet.  Note the spacing between data & power,  I think that is easily possible to do with clips &/or plastic open topped conduit in your wooden box sections.  

The trucking I had in mind is square section with a removable top.  The smallest is 50 x 50mm ........ 

It might (might) be possible to install some straight lengths in your wood box sections. The corner sections will be tricky,  but its not 100% necessary for it to be continuous end to end,  provided its used in all the long straight sections it should be enough.  I would not be concerned about small sections when the power & data cables are open, provided they are as far apart as space permits.  Each trucking section must be electrically bonded with each other & one end or the middle earthed.  Using trucking will/should make it possible to lay the power cables in without removing or disconnecting them.  

The alternative is round section conduit,  but that means removing & then pulling the heavy mains cable through the conduit,  & that is far easier to say than do,  & don't even think about elbows & bends.   I would say its impossible to pull through your twin &earth,  you will have to install new separate LN&E cables.   That leads on to the next alternative,  the simpler solution as you have to rip out the power cable anyway is install all new shielded cable.     The other alternative is to run the ethernet in conduit,  but that will not be as effective as the enclosing the power in trucking or changing it for a shielded cable.

Lots to think about  ...........  

nigelb posted:

Ken, I am listening to a few toons after my fettling as detailed above and I am quite frankly staggered by what I am hearing. My system has never sounded this good and I can only put it down to the ethernet/mains fettling. I am only guessing but I suspect you are going through a similar process to me but have different arrangements and also have the issue if ethernet cables running next to the mains spur cables to contend with.

I realise you have physical constraints over cable routing but try to follow my 'lessons learned' detailed above if at all possible, it worked wonders is my streaming system. Probably best to leave this till next week as you suggest to have a clear run at it having first evaluated what you have achieved so far.

 

Hi Nigel, Congratulations!! -- good to hear that you have had good results with net cable dressing vs mains!  I have also experienced the "My system has never sounded so good..." moment -- but curiosity and overzealous dressing destroyed as i reported. But i dont regret it for one moment -- i believe i have a better understanding of cable interactions now -- and this can only be good long term.

The metal trunking can be feasible in my setup if i enclose the net cables instead of the mains cables. does anyone know if this will be just as effective -- at least theoretically?

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Ken,  re:  am i correct that these regulations areintended for EMC issues only. i suspect that the requirements for audio may be even tighter??

YES these regs cover EMC,  but NO there are no regs or requirements that I can find for audio,  only myth & speculation, & that is what I am speculating with.  I'm not convinced all this will fix whatever your problem is.  There is no such thing as specific for audio,  its data pure & simple, its carried in ethernet & as such its all included in these (various) EMC & cable stnd. regs.   

This what you get in every office/lab/workshop electrical layout in the country,  power down the middle,  with data & telecoms on each side,  & 100's of metres of it,  not just a few feet.  Note the spacing between data & power,  I think that is easily possible to do with clips &/or plastic open topped conduit in your wooden box sections.  

 

The trucking I had in mind is square section with a removable top.  The smallest is 50 x 50mm ........ 

 

It might (might) be possible to install some straight lengths in your wood box sections. The corner sections will be tricky,  but its not 100% necessary for it to be continuous end to end,  provided its used in all the long straight sections it should be enough.  I would not be concerned about small sections when the power & data cables are open, provided they are as far apart as space permits.  Each trucking section must be electrically bonded with each other & one end or the middle earthed.  Using trucking will/should make it possible to lay the power cables in without removing or disconnecting them.  

The alternative is round section conduit,  but that means removing & then pulling the heavy mains cable through the conduit,  & that is far easier to say than do,  & don't even think about elbows & bends.   I would say its impossible to pull through your twin &earth,  you will have to install new separate LN&E cables.   That leads on to the next alternative,  the simpler solution as you have to rip out the power cable anyway is install all new shielded cable.     The other alternative is to run the ethernet in conduit,  but that will not be as effective as the enclosing the power in trucking or changing it for a shielded cable.

Lots to think about  ...........  

Mike many thanks. as it happens, i have CEF very close to me -- so i can buy this trunking to try next week!  i hope 50x50 will just fit -- if so, this could be the best compromise without having the room 'taken over' by audio net requirements -- which would be taking things a bit too far. I am really looking forward to this now and thanks for the headsup!! :-)

re: earthing  the trunking, if its connecting it back to an earth point at the consumer unit, or just boding it to any water piper for example, in the pipe box?

enjoy

ken

Those water pipes are just perfect.   All your water, heating & gas pipes are (should be) earth bonded.  

I was just thinking... It may sound stupid .... but given Ken's particular constraints might be worth a go...

Would wrapping the ethernet cable in some sort of metallic material do the trick and insulate it from the interference?

Perhaps a silver baking foil? It does stop RFI...

desperate times, desperate measures and all that....

Don't shoot me if that was a dumbest idea on this forum...

This may be of interest

http://arstechnica.co.uk/gadge...s-on-the-test-bench/

Don't think I'm lashing out £300!

ken c posted:

nigelb posted:

Ken, I am listening to a few toons after my fettling as detailed above and I am quite frankly staggered by what I am hearing. My system has never sounded this good and I can only put it down to the ethernet/mains fettling. I am only guessing but I suspect you are going through a similar process to me but have different arrangements and also have the issue if ethernet cables running next to the mains spur cables to contend with.

I realise you have physical constraints over cable routing but try to follow my 'lessons learned' detailed above if at all possible, it worked wonders is my streaming system. Probably best to leave this till next week as you suggest to have a clear run at it having first evaluated what you have achieved so far.

 

Hi Nigel, Congratulations!! -- good to hear that you have had good results with net cable dressing vs mains!  I have also experienced the "My system has never sounded so good..." moment -- but curiosity and overzealous dressing destroyed as i reported. But i dont regret it for one moment -- i believe i have a better understanding of cable interactions now -- and this can only be good long term.

The metal trunking can be feasible in my setup if i enclose the net cables instead of the mains cables. does anyone know if this will be just as effective -- at least theoretically?

enjoy

ken

Ken, it is difficult for me to isolate what physical changes have had the biggest positive impact in my system. Mike seems a little sceptical about the need for separation of mains power cables from ethernet cables so it could be the relocation of my LAN power strip mains lead (i.e. 3pin mains plug to IEC plug to go into the power strip) to a different ring main to that the Naim power strip is plugged into has had an affect. Possibly the replacement by the screened Supra LoRad cable to this mains strip (the LAN one) might have also had an affect. I would however suggest it is a combination of all these things that has had a cumulative affect together with the 252 still settling in and me becoming more accustomed to its signature. I don't think it is much to do with the latter as I noticed an immediate change after the fettling.

Mike do you have any thoughts? I hope my judgement is not being affected by the placebo pill!!

nigelb posted:

Ken, it is difficult for me to isolate what physical changes have had the biggest positive impact in my system. Mike seems a little sceptical about the need for separation of mains power cables from ethernet cables so it could be the relocation of my LAN power strip mains lead (i.e. 3pin mains plug to IEC plug to go into the power strip) to a different ring main to that the Naim power strip is plugged into has had an affect. Possibly the replacement by the screened Supra LoRad cable to this mains strip (the LAN one) might have also had an affect. I would however suggest it is a combination of all these things that has had a cumulative affect together with the 252 still settling in and me becoming more accustomed to its signature. I don't think it is much to do with the latter as I noticed an immediate change after the fettling.

Mike do you have any thoughts? I hope my judgement is not being affected by the placebo pill!!

makes sense nigel.  as  i reported earlier -- i managed to convince myself that  separating out the net cable to PC from the audio bet cables improved things a bit, so i suspect this was one of the issues - though i am not sure i  fully understand why it ever worked in the first place before all this fettling -- except my conjecture that i perhaps disturbed 'something' in my over-dressing.

i believe you are correct in your case, its the cumulative effect of all your changes. i am really looking forward next week to try the metal trunking and seen/listen to its effects.

what is interesting about all this now is that it is no longer about specific choice of ethernet cable but more to do with proper installation of whatever cable.

enjoy

ken

I don't think you've swallowed a placebo Nigel

 Ken,  my concern remains that I am not convinced (have not been persuaded) that whatever it is that you find is missing has been positively linked to power & ethernet cable proximity.   I have feelings/fears that all this effort to separate the cables will not do so much.

I've  had more thoughts:   going back to my picture showing space sectioned wall dado plastic trucking - remember this type of trucking is installed everywhere & is EMC regs compliant - I can see that with this kind of spacing then it would be very possible to untie, disconnect/remove as required & re-route the cables through & around the wood boxing.  With power clipped to the top/bottom & ethernet on the bottom/top there will be around 100mm spacing.  That will be at least if not more power/data spacing than in the plastic wall dado trucking. 

Ken wrote:

'what is interesting about all this now is that it is no longer about specific choice of ethernet cable but more to do with proper installation of whatever cable.'

Ken, you may have a point here and all my ethernet cables have stayed the same before and after the changes and are all (except the Sky box one) AQ. I cannot be sure of course that I would have got the same improvement if I was exclusively using cheap ethernet cables. But I think you are right to leave ethernet cable swapping for the time being and try and sort out the cable (both ethernet and mains) arrangements, particularly the trunking idea. If that has a positive effect then try different ethernet cables afterwards to see if this has any further beneficial effect.

I still don't understand why/how 'overzealous dressing' has caused your issue. Careful dressing that separates sensitive cables can only be a positive, so I am a bit perplexed by this theory. Are you sure an ethernet cable (particularly the terminations in the plugs) has not sustained damage during all the rearranging?

Please update us next week, I am sure there are still plenty of lessons regarding audio LAN optimisation for us all to learn

nigelb posted:

Ken wrote:

'what is interesting about all this now is that it is no longer about specific choice of ethernet cable but more to do with proper installation of whatever cable.'

Ken, you may have a point here and all my ethernet cables have stayed the same before and after the changes and are all (except the Sky box one) AQ. I cannot be sure of course that I would have got the same improvement if I was exclusively using cheap ethernet cables. But I think you are right to leave ethernet cable swapping for the time being and try and sort out the cable (both ethernet and mains) arrangements, particularly the trunking idea. If that has a positive effect then try different ethernet cables afterwards to see if this has any further beneficial effect.

I still don't understand why/how 'overzealous dressing' has caused your issue. Careful dressing that separates sensitive cables can only be a positive, so I am a bit perplexed by this theory. Are you sure an ethernet cable (particularly the terminations in the plugs) has not sustained damage during all the rearranging?

Please update us next week, I am sure there are still plenty of lessons regarding audio LAN optimisation for us all to learn

the neatening i am talking about is that after straightening out the excess cable, i tied all three cables along the route  --- by all 3 i mean including the one to the PC. before then -- this cable wasnt tied to the audio net cables though i cant remember now whether it was sufficiently #separated.'

Mike, do you also believe that running PC net cables close to audio net cables may introduce negative effects?

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

I don't think you've swallowed a placebo Nigel

 Ken,  my concern remains that I am not convinced (have not been persuaded) that whatever it is that you find is missing has been positively linked to power & ethernet cable proximity.   I have feelings/fears that all this effort to separate the cables will not do so much.

I've  had more thoughts:   going back to my picture showing space sectioned wall dado plastic trucking - remember this type of trucking is installed everywhere & is EMC regs compliant - I can see that with this kind of spacing then it would be very possible to untie, disconnect/remove as required & re-route the cables through & around the wood boxing.  With power clipped to the top/bottom & ethernet on the bottom/top there will be around 100mm spacing.  That will be at least if not more power/data spacing than in the plastic wall dado trucking. 

as in my message to Nigel -- perhaps the cable to PC may be the culprit when i tied it neatly to the other cables routing through that pipe box? any view?

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

Mike, do you also believe that running PC net cables close to audio net cables may introduce negative effects?

 

Ken - what do you mean by this? What is a PC net? Are you talking a patch lead to a PC? Well the common mode cross coupling between cables will be dependent on the noise of the PC coupling into the lead- but quite frankly this should be minimal and some well placed ferrite clips over the patch leads should reduce to minimal levels. If you do still have problems here with some high noise source then I really recommend you ditch copper ethernet cables and go fibre cables.

Simon