Ethernet cable installation...

KEN  !!!!  Its IS in MCRU,  that's the link I sent you this morning.  Plus I believe they are the only UK dealer

Just copy the line below & paste it into your search engine,  it will take you straight to Mains Cables R Us & the item you need.  

  MCRU /power-supplies/1175-ifi-audio-ipower.html#/choose_voltage-12v 

Mike-B posted:

????   your're mistaken .... here they are ... search    MCRU /power-supplies/1175-ifi-audio-ipower.html#/choose_voltage-12v   

Hmmm...  i was searching for 'iFi iPower' on that website --- this returns nothing, but if you search for iPower, then you get it.

if you actually go to that website and look in category 'Power supplies' its not there . i could swear it was listed here last time i looked but hey, whatever...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

if you actually go to that website and look in category 'Power supplies' its not there . i could swear it was listed here last time i looked but hey, whatever...

 

Could be down to your Ethernet cable re-orientation Ken affecting the IP packets - move them around a bit and you'll be able to see it again 

james n posted:

ken c posted:

if you actually go to that website and look in category 'Power supplies' its not there . i could swear it was listed here last time i looked but hey, whatever...

 

Could be down to your Ethernet cable re-orientation Ken affecting the IP packets - move them around a bit and you'll be able to see it again 

Ah that explains it 

enjoy

ken

Those flippin' IP packets causing problems again. They are a liability. AudioQuest Vodka, that will will sort them out! 

back home now after a business trip. i ordered the iFi thingy from FutureShop and it was actually delivered superfast yesterday but of course i wasnt home so had to collect it from royal mail this am. 

i also had a look at the metal trunking that Mike suggested. this will be much more difficult to fit wthout disruptng other fittings -- so i will give this a miss.

i have de-installed the Meicord to the NDS. The cable run for it proved tricky - i'd have needed to bend it under the minimum radius to route it neatly in my office. No problem in the pipeox as this will be covered anyhow.

will do some listening tests when i get a chance this weekend.

enjoy

ken

i must admit desperation was beginning to set it. i had accepted that concern over running ethernet in parallel with mains was probably superstition so i re-instated the parallel run, except that i have the ethernet cable to my PC seperate from the audio net cables -- purely out of superstition, not any science that i can claim to know.

i had spent quite some time re-arranging the location of switch and router in relation to other components and this is the config that i had settled on last week. 

So as you can see i had moved the router off the shelf above it in order to try to seperate it from the ReadyNAS and USB backup drives on the shelf above. The switch is actually further to the left than the photo shows. 

This configuration sound was pants. Artificial and uninteresting. Yesterday, i installed the iFi iPower thingy. With this configuration, it actually made things worse -- yes, there was some additional clarity -- but the dominant effect was to make the nastiness ore apparent -- as far as i could tell.

Then just about an hour ago, i was checking a few things -- and needed to move the router to reach some DC poer cables that i thought could be neater -- desperate times call for desperate measures :-(

As usual, system on radio input.   I just moved the router to the crowded shelf where the ReadyNAS and backup drives are -- in fact this is where it was before -- see below:

This actually ruined the neat cable dressing i had achieved before, but then this wasnt meant to be permanent -- just wanted to check a few things in the corder to the left of the router. 

I could hear radio in my office from where i was standing and i thought to myself -- hang on a second -- that sounds lot better than i have heard for sometime!!  i went into my office and played NDS -- yes, it was better, a LOT better!

I have absolutely no idea whats happening here -- i could try to cook an explanation (proximity to net cables to the switch) but that would be just that -  i.e.  'cooking' -- there is no way i would have predicted that the above setup would sound better. But i guess the experts here will have an educated view. 

seems i was probably paying too much attention to proximity to mains cables in the pipebox  and just assumed moving the router to below the white shelf was surely a good thing -- away from music source -- the ReadyNas and further down from the audio net cables en-route to my office. well, seems it isnt. i will double/triple check that i am attributing cause/effect correctly i.e.  that i havent changed anything else in the process --  i dont believe so though... but just as well so i dont mislead anyone...

enjoy

ken

   Hi Ken,  this is weird,  moving ethernet equipment affecting radio (you do mean NAT radio & not iRadio) & I am wondering if these SQ changes are caused by something else completely.  Time to get back to basic & systematic diagnosis,  I suggest the following - & fear not,  compared to ripping out your pipe boxes,  this is remarkably easy.

Leave the iFi iPower in place or if you've changed it back, leave it as is,  it has nothing to do with this 

Step 1 - Copy a  few selected well known tracks from NAS on to a USB memory stick.  Disconnect the ethernet from the NDS RJ45 port (this completely disconnects the NDS from wireless,  the network components & its cables).  Play the USB tracks - you will have to use the NDS remote with the front display & panel buttons.     That SQ is your benchmark,  does it sound anything like the quality you are expecting?   If its not up to expectations,  then you need to forget the network & focus only on the replay equipment & its wiring - think of the NDS playing USB as a CD player.  Now you need to check over all the IC's & other signal cable connections, the NAT coax & mains power.  As & when that is sorted & the USB replay SQ meets your expectations,  then & only then,  do you move on to the network. 

Step 2 -  You are going to systematically rebuild the audio network, one step at a time & compare each step to the SQ from NDS & USB.  

Disconnect all ethernet cables from switch, router, NAS & US - including all the non-audio cables.  

Connect NDS to switch & switch to router - test & compare/assess the iRadio SQ.  

Connect the NAS only to switch & play from the NAS - how does that compare.  

Connect US - how does that compare.    

Connect other non-audio ethernet cables - one at a time - & compare SQ.

See how it goes & report back if you need help – my e-mail is open & might get to me faster.

thanks Mike. Good suggestions. i will email you.

enjoy

ken

Yes, I was also going to suggest you try a USB feed to the NDS to see if your issues persist. If they do then it would indicate an issue on the analogue side rather than the LAN/digital side. Mike's suggestion however is a simple systematic approach to this so try this first.

I would add one thing however. The fact that simply moving the router (and presumably rearranging and reconnecting various Ethernet cables) produced a noticeable improvement does raise the potential issue of Ethernet cable integrity. Understandably, you have been messing with your Ethernet cables a lot recently and these have very fine delicate internal wiring which in turn have fragile connections inside their plugs. You may have a damaged Ethernet cable and the manipulation you have carried out moving the router may have partially fixed it. If the test with the USB does bring an improvement it would imply an issue with your LAN/network devices. If so, it might be worth systematically replacing each Ethernet cable one at a time to test my theory out. A real faff I know but might be worth a go as a final resort. Of course switches and routers have a habit of failing, another possible explanation if the USB test solves the issues.

Nigel, good point re: possible net cable issue. this would be very consistent with the up-down performance that i reported. i did notice that the meicord being stiff sometimes makes what i would refer to as a "stressed" connection. i am using a short meicord between ReadyNAS and switch right now.  i will not have a chance to do any tests for a couple of days due to work -- also want to make sure i am in a good state of mind before i start doing this.

very good suggestions from you and Mike for which i am very grateful. i am pretty sure we are close to nailing this down.

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

 Step 1 - Copy a  few selected well known tracks from NAS on to a USB memory stick.  Disconnect the ethernet from the NDS RJ45 port (this completely disconnects the NDS from wireless,  the network components & its cables).  Play the USB tracks - you will have to use the NDS remote with the front display & panel buttons.     That SQ is your benchmark,  does it sound anything like the quality you are expecting?  

Executed step 1 late this evening (Wed). this was in fact a very interesting and useful experiement -- something that i rarely do -- i have always streamed my music from the NAS and never bothered with USB sticks. but yesterday, i bought  a 32GB SanDisk flash drive from John Lewis and copied over some tracks from my ReadyNAS. I didnt want to do any listening yesterday as i was a bit rushed with work -- you have to do these things when you are in the right mood, otherwise its a waste of time. Fortunately, i managed to steal some time this evening and the result was definitive and clear-cut.

The USB source sounded better. 

Hmmm... this then suggests a network problem.

I will try to proceed with the other follow on tests perhaps over the weekend.

There were a few other things that i also noticed though.

In order to avoid having to drill some holes -- i simply velcrosed the switch and router onto the wall. This made it very easy and quick to more the switch relative to the other components in line with suggestions here. But for some reason which i cannot fathom right now,  when i peeled off the switch temporarily, the sound was better. i suspect this explains the reason why the router sounded better on the shelf, unvelcrosed. This all sounds rather far fetched to me -- but i am only reporting what i heard FWIW - i guess there is some kind of explanation.

Much more significant and in line with Nigelb and Mike's suggestions above-- i decided to check a few net cables to make sure there was no damage. There wasnt. But i noticed the meicord from switch to NAS was making a somewhat "stressed" RJ45 connection -- if you are a user of Meicord you will know what i mean. I replaced it with another Cat6 cable.

I may be imagining it all because i so wish stable streamed music to return-- but this substitution was significant. The NDS sounded better, a lot better in fact. That tonality i was missing was back... emphatically.  But as i say, i need to assess this again tomorrow when i am less tired.

Before i get all misunderstood -- i am not saying the Meicord is bad in any way. In fact i like it a lot because it looks extremely well made. Unfortunately hasnt slotted into my system too well -- so its very unlikely that i will be using it at all...

more later... thanks to Mike, Nigel and other who have helped me navigate this minefield up to now.  fascinating (if a bit frustrating at the end) experience. i dont blame you guys if you are getting fed up with all this palaver.

Mike, the FM plug that you suggested was delivered this am. looks the part -- and it will make it a lot easier to connect to the NAT01 at the back of the Fraim because of the sideways connection. looking fwd to that -- especially that it will likely also make a BETTER connection.

enjoy

ken

Good stuff Ken,  now we are getting somewhere.    

When you start replacing cables one at a time,  this hopefully will identify a defective cable & it could be a reason why you are getting  the inexplicable SQ variables as you move stuff around.   You might not see any physical damage,  but be mindful of the possibility of dodgy wire connections in the RJ45's & also twisted pair crush damage that can stop a cable performing in MHz & Mbps terms even though there is no actual electrical break.   

Re stressing the Meicord,  remember it is a very robust cable - its stiffness is indicative of that - & it has a very well designed RJ45 exit stress protector, its the best I've seen & remember very few (if any) other cable makes have such a protector,  plus I doubt you will cause damage even with a stressed connection.

Keep posting ............... 

Ken good news, at least some progress. I am not getting at all fed up and would like to think that others on the forum would help me out if (more likely when) I get a problem.

By the way have you received and installed the iFi iPower yet? This was a great addition to my switch and it may well make a difference in your system.

Keep up the testing, particularly the various ethernet cables one at a time, as we can now be reasonably sure the issue(s) is LAN related.

Look forward to an update when you feel in the mood (I know exactly what you mean by this).

Cheers

N

Hopefully, I had the chance  to have a Fibe entry from Bell. In addition, they offer different speeds up to 940 mbps, almost 1 gigabit .. IMHO that's the key point, have a high quality Internet feed.

Second, is to installed high quality Cat 7 cables from the router (isolated router)  to the SuperUniti or other device. I have done it for all other components too: PC, NAS, HDTV and Apple TV. So everything is cabling in Cat 7 and in IP mode like an Intranet network. I listened sometimes to music in a wireless mode outside or use it as a remote device: IPhone, IPad, ..  But presently, we have 2 meters of snow and it is still minus 5 ...  so it's better inside for listening to music..

In streaming music, I  think that the Ethernet cabling is as most important as the interconnect cables. From the entry to the Streaming device.

i wasnt sure where to post this, but i guess it doesnt really matter anyhow.

my US (in my office) is plugged in to a strip that is shared with my 2 printers, iPad charger, RCM(which is off anyhow). the strip is plugged into a double socket from which another strip feeds my PC and all its peripherals. The double socket is on a mains ring for conservatory and garage -- so our 2 freeers share that circuit. All the net gear is also on the same ring. My Hifi is on a separate radial on a different conumer unit.

the US sits on a shelf just above the power strip and about 1m from the double socket.

last night, i just thought to myself -- why not move the US to the conservatory where all the net gear is? very easy thing to do and also very easy to reverse if no go.

so, i installed the US on a shelf  about 1ft above the floor with a short cable to the switch. 

And listened. Wasnt expecting much.

Well it sounded better. Actually a lot better. 

I dont know what the explanation is: could be leaving out the long ethernet run that runs parallel to 2 mains cables? or could be proximity of US to its shared powerstrip, or... whatever. 

next thing i might try is to power the all net gear, now including US, from a dedicated radial, also seperate from the main hifi one -- but on same consumer unit. this will involve a long main leads run to the double socket -- but it should be possible.

well, enjoy...

ken

Ken, I went through the process of physically and 'electrically' separating my back boxes (excluding the US) from my LAN gear (including the US). Both 'systems' are run off separate Wireworld Matrix 2 power strips and have their own power socket on different ring mains (with nothing else plugged in, particularly no PC stuff). I then plugged my one and only Powerline from the wall directly to the 250DR. At the same time I replaced all the standard Naim power leads and a longish extension I made up with Supra LoRad power cables (a tip I got from Mike). Previous to all this I replaced the Netgear SMPS with an iFi iPower (another tip from Mike). BTW have you got your iFi iPower installed yet?

The difference of all this effort to SQ was huge, and I mean huge. This has left me in no doubt that noise in our LANs can be, and often is, a significant problem with significant adverse effects on SQ. I really think this is an issue that Naim and other streamer/renderer manufacturers should take more seriously (particularly as they recommend ethernet wired connection) and start to address it, even if that means providing some good practice advice on optimising a home LANs.

Hi Ken,  a please from me to keep it on this thread,  continuity with your project an' all

I suspect moving the US away from the various switching noise pollution coming from 2 printers, iPad charger, the other double socket branch with the PC & peripherals.   I suspect most if not all have SMPS's & it might be getting to the US somehow.

+1 for powering all the net stuff separately if it can be done

nigelb posted:

Ken, I went through the process of physically and 'electrically' separating my back boxes (excluding the US) from my LAN gear (including the US). Both 'systems' are run off separate Wireworld Matrix 2 power strips and have their own power socket on different ring mains (with nothing else plugged in, particularly no PC stuff). I then plugged my one and only Powerline from the wall directly to the 250DR. At the same time I replaced all the standard Naim power leads and a longish extension I made up with Supra LoRad power cables (a tip I got from Mike). Previous to all this I replaced the Netgear SMPS with an iFi iPower (another tip from Mike). BTW have you got your iFi iPower installed yet?

The difference of all this effort to SQ was huge, and I mean huge. This has left me in no doubt that noise in our LANs can be, and often is, a significant problem with significant adverse effects on SQ. I really think this is an issue that Naim and other streamer/renderer manufacturers should take more seriously (particularly as they recommend ethernet wired connection) and start to address it, even if that means providing some good practice advice on optimising a home LANs.

hi nigel, i was partly inspired by your experiments here. the  LAN gear right is still plugged into a ring shared with other domestic appliances -- fridge, freeers, PC, printers, telephones, etc etc... what i have done is just physically move the US frommy office near powerstrips and power leads.

as i say, what i will do next when i have some spare moments is to isolate LAN gear a bit more by plugging it all into a seperate radial on the hifi consumer unit rather than the general domestic one. the power strip i have is a very cheap 6-way one from Argos -- at least it doesnt have any gizmos like surge protector and fancy lights.

the switch is indeed powered by iFi Power. When i installed this quite some time -- it didnt make any difference at all -- but that was at a time when there was something not quite right with my system anyhow. when i get a chance i might try to isolate its effect by swapping in the old one.

like all things hifi -- i sense that sometimes things that are not suppoed to make a difference at all -- in fact sometime do -- so we are perhaps left with evolving 'best practice' by experimentation...?

I might check out this LoRad stuff sometime.

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,  a please from me to keep it on this thread,  continuity with your project an' all

I suspect moving the US away from the various switching noise pollution coming from 2 printers, iPad charger, the other double socket branch with the PC & peripherals.   I suspect most if not all have SMPS's & it might be getting to the US somehow.

+1 for powering all the net stuff separately if it can be done

OK Mike -- i will keep it all here...

on the tweakery theme -- any of you guys got any experience wth the linear power supply for US that BillyVee are selling (looks simiar to the one on MCRU site)?

enjoy

ken

I have  positive experiences with TS power supplies. Also for the US.

Also use one to power my NAS. All in the name of reducing system's noise. 

thanks Adam ...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,  a please from me to keep it on this thread,  continuity with your project an' all

I suspect moving the US away from the various switching noise pollution coming from 2 printers, iPad charger, the other double socket branch with the PC & peripherals.   I suspect most if not all have SMPS's & it might be getting to the US somehow.

+1 for powering all the net stuff separately if it can be done

OK Mike -- i will keep it all here...

on the tweakery theme -- any of you guys got any experience wth the linear power supply for US that BillyVee are selling (looks simiar to the one on MCRU site)?

enjoy

ken

Yes, I have replaced my Unitiserve SMPS with a TP linear power supply specifically designed for the US. This gave a very nice uplift in SQ.