Ethernet cable installation...

Nigel, many thanks...

enjoy

ken

the saga continues.

in an effort to reclaim our conservatory, i did some 'tidying' up this evening. i figured if i located the router side by side with the switch -- this would make for a neater arrangement of ethernet cables and allow me to use shorter ones as well.  

well, the result was definitely quite a bit neater -- (i can post a photo if there is interest) --  but there is no doubt that a net cabinet would probably be better and i am thinking about that.

what i wasnt expecting as that this would change the sound quality in any way. curiously, it did -- and in no subtle way.

i am playing Patrick Noland "7" right now -- just stumbled on it really -- and i have just realised just how good this track is -- with all the musical tension created by seemingly pushing what would be the nast note of a phrase into the next phrase! .

this may sound as if i am some kind of music afficianado -- i'm definitely not -- this is probably just my way of describing what i am hearing. And i have just played the track twice -- it went so quickly first time round!! and its just finished again, damn!!! well, time to play something else...

now i am in a dilemma. the LAN gear is currently sharing a mains ring with all sorts -- fridge, freeer, my PC etc etc... I was going to arrange it so that it would all be powered from an existing 6mm sq radial -- but i am now unsure whether to bother. i suppose it wont do any harm???

definitely no hurry -- for now, i will just enjoy this "wow" moment...

RLJ's "Pnk Flamingo" has just finished. Now its Oscar Petersons "Bags' Groove"

Oh my...

well, enjoy...

ken

Hi Ken

if you have an option, definitely plug your LAN gear into a separate mains spur. Just make sure it's not the same one as your Naim

Adam

Hi Ken,  did you change the router to switch ethernet for a shorter one,  if so a possibility of the old one being defective.  (?)  Maybe a dodgy port disturbed in the move (??)    

Adam Zielinski posted:

Hi Ken

if you have an option, definitely plug your LAN gear into a separate mains spur. Just make sure it's not the same one as your Naim

Adam

thanks Adam. if i ever bother to do this at all, it will be a different radial circuit to that on the main system, although same consumer unit. theory says this should be at worst neutral, at best, better... but i suspect i will somehow arrange this so that i can revert to current setup. maybe all the noise from the other appliances is paradoxically beneficial ? just kidding of course...

enjoy...

ken

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,  did you change the router to switch ethernet for a shorter one,  if so a possibility of the old one being defective.  (?)  Maybe a dodgy port disturbed in the move (??)    

As it happens, Mike, yes, i did change the cable to a shorter one -- and you may well be right that there may have been an issue there. easily checked if i could be bothered -- but better not disturb anything now. Or it could be that the router is now oriented north-south 

now i challenge you to guess what the shorter ethernet cable is?  

enjoy...

ken

M-m-m-m-m   thinking very hard,   I see a hint of blue,  is it ..........  it'll come to mei in a m-m-m-moment  

------------------

Separate cable subject,  I might have a new cable thread to write up about tomorrow ......... 

of course, if i had a 'symphathetic' route -- i would also run the meicord to the NDS. but we've been there before.

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,  did you change the router to switch ethernet for a shorter one,  if so a possibility of the old one being defective.  (?)  Maybe a dodgy port disturbed in the move (??)    

As it happens, Mike, yes, i did change the cable to a shorter one -- and you may well be right that there may have been an issue there. easily checked if i could be bothered -- but better not disturb anything now. Or it could be that the router is now oriented north-south 

now i challenge you to guess what the shorter ethernet cable is?  

enjoy...

ken

Picked this up a bit late. When I read that Ken had replaced an Ethernet cable (due to moving his router) and had heard an immediate and definite improvement in SQ, I also suspected a dodgy Ethernet cable had been removed (by chance it seems).

Ken, feel free to put your LAN gear on a separate spur removed from PCs, printers, SMPSs as it can only improve things further. But I suspect you have stumbled across the real cause of the problem by removing an offending Ethernet cable. These cables are very easily damaged and there is no outward signs of said damage. As you have made several changes to the positions of your LAN gear and hence several changes to the interconnecting Ethernet cables, it is very possible that an Ethernet cable has got damaged in the process. This is one very good reason to leave well alone now if you are happy with the SQ. If you decide to put the LAN gear on a separate spur then be very careful if you have to move Ethernet cables as well, for obvious reasons.

Delighted you seem to have got to the root of the problem.

Lesson: Assuming the problem was a damaged ethernet cable then, the integrity of an ethernet cable is far more influential on SQ that it's supposed 'quality'.

hi nigel,

yes, i agree that cable damage does seem the most likely explanation. the cable that was replaced was a fairly new QED "Performance". unless i bought a defective one (possible of course) i have to admit there is part of me that thinks it may actually be something else. its easy enough to put it back and hear what happens, but i am in no mood to do that now. but if it was damaged somehow (dont know how) then these buggers are rather flimsy... hence...

i really like the design and look of the Meicord. Its stiff as hell -- which makes it difficult to connect without stressing the RJ45. i just managed with that short one -- 1m. and then there is bending it around door frame as it enters my office from the conservatory -- quite difficult not to overbend it. well right now, i am using a cheap Maplin Cat 6 to the streamer -- its price doesnt seem to be getting in the way right now.

The LAN gear is on a spur right off a ring right now. i am considerng a dedicated radial from the consumer unit.  seems a good idea but hardly desperate from the way the system sounds right now.

Long live vinyl !!!

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

 

Separate cable subject,  I might have a new cable thread to write up about tomorrow ......... 

looking fwd!! :-)

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

hi nigel,

yes, i agree that cable damage does seem the most likely explanation. the cable that was replaced was a fairly new QED "Performance". unless i bought a defective one (possible of course) i have to admit there is part of me that thinks it may actually be something else. its easy enough to put it back and hear what happens, but i am in no mood to do that now. but if it was damaged somehow (dont know how) then these buggers are rather flimsy... hence...

i really like the design and look of the Meicord. Its stiff as hell -- which makes it difficult to connect without stressing the RJ45. i just managed with that short one -- 1m. and then there is bending it around door frame as it enters my office from the conservatory -- quite difficult not to overbend it. well right now, i am using a cheap Maplin Cat 6 to the streamer -- its price doesnt seem to be getting in the way right now.

The LAN gear is on a spur right off a ring right now. i am considerng a dedicated radial from the consumer unit.  seems a good idea but hardly desperate from the way the system sounds right now.

Long live vinyl !!!

enjoy

ken

 

Ken, no point in replacing with the suspect ethernet cable to see/prove if this indeed was the problem because the issue with that cable (assuming there is an issue) could be an intermittent one and you could 'correct' the issue by simple act of re-introducing it. Assuming the 'suspect' cable is not expensive, best chuck it away in case it finds its way back into your LAN sometime in the future when you have forgotten this episode. If the suspect cable is expensive then see if you can persuade the retailer to replace it as it is fairly new.

Unfortunately I suspect the construction and stiffness of an ethernet cable is no sign or guarantee if its integrity and resistance to damage. It is best to manipulate them as little as possible and observe the minimum bend radius guidelines. Oh, it used to be so simple ('....then or has time rewritten every line' - Gladys Knight and the Pips just popped into my head).

For now, I suggest you relax and luxuriate in the wonderful SQ you have recovered. Why not pop some Gladys Knight on. 

Ken,  one more thing,  if you do rearrange it all & end up with router & switch close to each other:  I would not be too concerned to use the MeiCord on that run as its not a heavy or critical data stream,  better to keep that for switch/NAS or switch/US.    

Router > Switch: this handles 'only' internet data traffic: good quality, regular LAN cable will suffice

NAS >Switch and US > Switch and NDS>Switch: this is where streaming traffic starts to matter.

I use Chord C-Stream for those connections.
Main reason for that is the quality of the cable and the plugs and how the whole cable is put together.
I did not really expect a sound improvement at this stage but a stable and reliable connection. To my surprise and delight installing Chord C-Stream did improve the sound quality,

hello folks. this is an update in the close to the end saga of my streaming installation -- i feel i'm in the end game now.

the latest is that i have now connected all the LAN gear to a 6mm deducated radial on the same consumer unit as the rest of the system, but of course different circuit as the main system is on a 10mm sq radial. i am also now using an 8-way Olson block (i used that to good effect on my main system a long time ago before i replaced that with MK sockets at the end of the radial -- never looked back).

I have alsomoved the NAS drive(s) to a self in the workstation table underneath it all, as you can see below:

I can probably tidy up a bit more under there -- just noticed that after taking this photo. 

The end result if that the LAN components are now maximally seperated from the mains block and the mains lead from the block to the UPS and the double socket above it  -- this is at the termination of the 6mm sq radial.

Result: Lets use the 'inky darkness' scale. before all this, the 'inky darkness coefficient' (IDC) was at the grey level. Then it moved to the 'navy blue' level when i moved the US from my office to be close to the switch.

Now  the IDC is black -- very dark balck if there is any such thing.

My conclusion: In my system, it very definitely pays sonic dvidends to have the LAN components as far as cables will allow from AC and DC power cables. Also, the SQ issues i have had i dont at all believe were anything to do with cable damage -- i am using mostly cheap Maplin cables (OK, except for one short Meicord between switch and router --because it was available)

I will very likely consider Chord C-Stream cable from switch to NDS -- but this is not becauase i am expecting another notch in SQ, just that they seem well make (like Meicords) but are much easier to manipulate.

Just some tidying up to do (mainly finally close that pipe boxing) if i can be bothered to further isolate signal from power cables. Oh, I am still considering a metal net cabinet that i can lock to provent little fingers getting drawn by the lights from the US and NAS. :-)

thanks very much guys for your help through this journey.

LAN cables need to be 'dressed' just like any other signal cable in a naim system -- thats my experience anyhow -- others may of course experience different.

enjoy...

ken

.......   ........ the tidy word ......... lets call it work in progress ......  .......... I will post a pic of my cable dressing next week when the new router arrives.

Hi Ken,  I'm very happy you seem to be at or near the end of this.  Personally I would be very keen to positively ID the cause of this as I am far from convinced cable dressing is the cause;   yes its good to separate as much as possible & that includes the network power,  but your description of SQ degradation & the extreme changes do not fit with my experience of ethernet routing.  I really do suspect a defective cable or maybe a connection.  Whatever,  as per your signature ------- ENJOY         

Ken,

So glad you finally got there and lessons for us all regarding LAN gear and cable separation. Also lessons in calm and systematic approach to isoloating the source of issues.

As I have already said, the elimination of noise in our LANs (and hence ingress into the analogue side of things) is as critical as assembling the best black boxes we can afford. You have a wonderful system but it was clearly compromised by merely how the digital elements were arranged (and proximity to the analogue elements, cables and SMPSs). Such apparently minor considerations had such a significant adverse effect on a superbly revealing system.

There maybe some out there who have not taken such care and as a consequence may not have realised the full potential of their systems. This is why I tend to bang on so much about noise and the impact of removing as much as possible from our systems. Whenever I have made efforts to remove noise I am occasionally rewarded with no appreciable difference but often enjoy considerable SQ enhancements. It is still a black art unfortunately, but a black art that can induce inky-blackness as you have found. 

The great thing is that noise removal measures often cost nothing or very little compared to the cost of our black boxes. The biggest cost is probably to our sanity.

Thanks guys for your support and suggestions during my streaming adventures. i believe i am close to the end of this journey now. learnt a lot in the process. Yes, if my experience is anything to go by, there may be quite a few systems out there compromised by ingress of noise, whatever its source into the system.

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

.......   ........ the tidy word ......... lets call it work in progress ......  .......... I will post a pic of my cable dressing next week when the new router arrives.

Hi Ken,  I'm very happy you seem to be at or near the end of this.  Personally I would be very keen to positively ID the cause of this as I am far from convinced cable dressing is the cause;   yes its good to separate as much as possible & that includes the network power,  but your description of SQ degradation & the extreme changes do not fit with my experience of ethernet routing.  I really do suspect a defective cable or maybe a connection.  Whatever,  as per your signature ------- ENJOY         

I agree, in the world of EMC and cross coupling you often find a bundle of wires randomly layered  is advantageous to tidy nice neat wires. Tidiness through  straight lines and even uniformity (unless twists, braids or using balanced conductors) encourages more coupling and noise transfer, randomly layed wires in a bit of muddle will most likely mitigate coupling to a large extent. Some of the cross coupling specs specifically mention this and loose bundle of wires with X number of insulated conductors.

But yes as Mike says enjoy and  try and forget about this so your subconscious doesn't obsess on the what ifs.

Simon

nigelb posted:

You have a wonderful system but it was clearly compromised by merely how the digital elements were arranged (and proximity to the analogue elements, cables and SMPSs). Such apparently minor considerations had such a significant adverse effect on a superbly revealing system.

It's not clear to me that he had any issue other than a defective cable. 

The most important thing now - Ken is happy!

Bart posted:

nigelb posted:

You have a wonderful system but it was clearly compromised by merely how the digital elements were arranged (and proximity to the analogue elements, cables and SMPSs). Such apparently minor considerations had such a significant adverse effect on a superbly revealing system.

It's not clear to me that he had any issue other than a defective cable. 

 

 

I too suspected a dodgy ethernet cable as I posted earlier in this thread, but Ken thinks not and as he has gone through this process in detail I am minded to accept his argument.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike-B posted:

.......   ........ the tidy word ......... lets call it work in progress ......  .......... I will post a pic of my cable dressing next week when the new router arrives.

Hi Ken,  I'm very happy you seem to be at or near the end of this.  Personally I would be very keen to positively ID the cause of this as I am far from convinced cable dressing is the cause;   yes its good to separate as much as possible & that includes the network power,  but your description of SQ degradation & the extreme changes do not fit with my experience of ethernet routing.  I really do suspect a defective cable or maybe a connection.  Whatever,  as per your signature ------- ENJOY         

I agree, in the world of EMC and cross coupling you often find a bundle of wires randomly layered  is advantageous to tidy nice neat wires. Tidiness through  straight lines and even uniformity (unless twists, braids or using balanced conductors) encourages more coupling and noise transfer, randomly layed wires in a bit of muddle will most likely mitigate coupling to a large extent. Some of the cross coupling specs specifically mention this and loose bundle of wires with X number of insulated conductors.

But yes as Mike says enjoy and  try and forget about this so your subconscious doesn't obsess on the what ifs.

Simon

 

 

 

Surely separating wires as much as possible would be preferable to a bundle of wires. Although I accept the argument that randomly arranging might be preferable to neat parallel lines of cables close together. Looks neat but not good for noise control. I realise there are scientific explanations for the creation, containment and ingress of noise but the minimisation of said noise in our systems still remains a black art.

Hi Nigel,  wires running all over the place & crossing each other are less prone to cross coupling than when run in parallel & close together.  That said ethernet twisted pairs do a pretty good job at rejecting most of this with the twisted pair config., provided they are well/correctly made & defect free;  & I believe could have been Ken's problem. And keep in mind its not just a connection break that can make an ethernet defective.

nigelb posted:

 

Surely separating wires as much as possible would be preferable to a bundle of wires. Although I accept the argument that randomly arranging might be preferable to neat parallel lines of cables close together. Looks neat but not good for noise control. I realise there are scientific explanations for the creation, containment and ingress of noise but the minimisation of said noise in our systems still remains a black art.

Indeed - but if not separated by a reasonable distance having the lumped together randomly is the next best thing. I am not sure mitigating electrical noise is a black art, its been a distinguished field in its own right for many decades  with its own professional community and standards - and if basic physics principles are applied it can often be managed or reduced with out resorting to too much complexity - but yes diagnosing a noisy defective component can require challenging detective work.

S