Ethernet cable installation...

Mike, Simon,

Agreed.

Maybe 'Black Art' is too simplistic a description. What I mean is that the audio world is still relatively new to digital sources (streaming) and networks on a domestic scale and I believe there are still lessons to learn in optimising home audio networks, or at least most of us are still catching up on current knowledge in this area, particularly in relation to noise reduction. Indeed it is possible that Ken has stumbled across the problem/solution in his system and we simply cannot be sure of what the issue really was. Whether Ken's issues were related to the arrangement of his LAN/devices/cables (and their interraction with other devices and cables) or a faulty cable (or a combination of these), diagnosing such issues is a challenge as Simon points out. I simply referred to this as a Black Art due to most of us lacking the knowledge to isolate these sort of issues.

What I would advise Ken is if he is now happy with the SQ, stop fiddling, relax and chill to some good music, he has earned it.

nigelb posted:

 

....What I would advise Ken is if he is now happy with the SQ, stop fiddling, relax and chill to some good music, he has earned it.

hey nige!  i dont 'fiddle', i only 'fettle'? 

references to 'black art' are rather funny...

for the record, no amount of LAN cable swapping made any sort of difference. tiresome process to boot.

moving LAN components -- not just for the sake of it,but to separate power cables (both AC and DC) from LAN cables made a rather obvious difference. 

however, the 10mm sq radial cable in the pipebox is still running parallel to the ethernet cable to the NDS. so perhaps this is less of an issue -- or the next chapter of 'fettling' 

off topic: anyone know where i can get a high quality version of this type of  IEC C14 male plug -- the right angle doesnt matter... it can be straight... i was hoping Furutech would have something but my checks have drawn a blank...

enjoy

ken

These are about as good as it gets Ken,  they are Martin Kaiser (make),      I have the female versions on some of my 1.5mm cabled equipment,  they are well made & a good firm fit  compared to the normal consumer standard IEC320's.      The picture tells you the www address

ken c posted:

nigelb posted:

 

....What I would advise Ken is if he is now happy with the SQ, stop fiddling, relax and chill to some good music, he has earned it.

hey nige!  i dont 'fiddle', i only 'fettle'? 

references to 'black art' are rather funny...

for the record, no amount of LAN cable swapping made any sort of difference. tiresome process to boot.

moving LAN components -- not just for the sake of it,but to separate power cables (both AC and DC) from LAN cables made a rather obvious difference. 

however, the 10mm sq radial cable in the pipebox is still running parallel to the ethernet cable to the NDS. so perhaps this is less of an issue -- or the next chapter of 'fettling' 

Sorry Ken, did I say fiddle? Of course I meant fettle.

When I fiddle, I refer to it as fine-tuning because that implies I know exactly what I am doing!

Mike-B posted:

These are about as good as it gets Ken,  they are Martin Kaiser (make),      I have the female versions on some of my 1.5mm cabled equipment,  they are well made & a good firm fit  compared to the normal consumer standard IEC320's.      The picture tells you the www address

 

 

Ah, just what i was after! the one i have is from maplin (i think) and doesnt make a firm enough fit. Thanks Mike...

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken,  I just looked on Mark Grant's www & he no longer shows an M.Kaiser male as a stocked item.

However,  if you search "Martin Kaiser 10a male IEC connector silver plated"  you will find them on fleabay

MCRU have them as well but not sure make 

I've had some from MCRU. Avoid Ebay as provenance can be an issue. 

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,  I just looked on Mark Grant's www & he no longer shows an M.Kaiser male as a stocked item.

However,  if you search "Martin Kaiser 10a male IEC connector silver plated"  you will find them on fleabay

MCRU have them as well but not sure make 

yes, i had the same problem -- fired off an emial from their web site..

enjoy

ken

james n posted:

I've had some from MCRU. Avoid Ebay as provenance can be an issue. 

i also inquired with David@MCRU and he is going to send me one f.o.c (!!!) after the holidays 

enjoy

ken

can any of the experts here explains what the audible  impact of 'cross talk' of whatever type (Near End Cross Talk) or Alien Cross talk) is -- in the audio context? especially given what seems the experience of some here (including myself) UTP seems to have better SQ than screened cables -- Lindy adapter or not -- but of course i may have misunderstood that...

enjoy

ken

Crosstalk  is a signal that is coupled (transmitted) from one ethernet twisted pair to another.    The most predominant is near end crosstalk  (NEXT)     Its minimised by the twists in the cable where each of the cables 4 pairs has a different twist rate (turns per cm) so each acts like differently tuned antennas & helps prevent the pairs picking up signals from each other; &  with crosstalk prevention  its very important to maintain the twist form (geometry) right up to the termination pins.    Also we have far end crosstalk, that is the same but measured at (guess)       Alien crosstalk is the same coupling effect but coming from another cable.   And crosstalk is not the only issue; Return Loss, Skew Delay & Attenuation all impact the cables performance.  What this means is the cable may not meet is "Category"  Cat6 = 250MHz,  Cat6A = 500MHz.  But does a Cat6A that fails 500HMz bandwidth but does meet Cat6 250MHz sound bad?  probably not (maybe)   

What is the audible impact ?  IMO impossible to say to be honest, maybe a loss of dynamics, less able to follow a tune, less PRaT (whatever that is)   its one of those subtle intangibles & way from the more obvious effects of changes in IC & speaker cables - in most cases - 

a few recent changes in pursuit of erhmmm... whatever.

mains lead from LAN radial powr sockets to APC UPS is now a Lo Rad screened cable.

mains lead from UPS to the 8 way Olsen block is an MCRU  IEC14 (male)  to IEC13 also shielded cable.

NAS to switch and US to switch are now CAT6a UTP cables -- extremely cheap but feels very well made like Meicord...

Linear power suply to the US. Mains cable to the this S also a Lo Rad shielded jobby.

OK, lets cut to the chase -- does it all sound different? YES, definitely!!

does it sound better? taking time to get used to it -- sometimes i feel system may now be sounding a bit too, "clinical" -- but this is really not that meaningful a description. in any case, its early days -- after all this surgery -- system probably needs to "settle" down a bit. and i have been down with a very bad sore throat over the past week ...

considering replacing radial (i have 2, one for LAN components and a 2nd for main system) cables with screened ones. the first is relatively easy -- but the 2nd is a much, much bigger deal -- if i ever decide to call my electrician back... i cam imagine him rolling his eyes yet again... 

enjoy...

ken

Ken, interesting stuff.

When I made similar changes I too heard changes but what you describe as clinical, I described as more detail and insight. Of course we have different systems and the changes we are hearing I am sure are (subtly?) different.

Putting screened power leads in did seem to clean things up a bit. Possibly removing a small degree of mush by possibly removing some noise, who can be sure. In reality these small improvements tend to have a cumulative effect on SQ and it is often difficult to attribute an improvement SQ to one particular change in LAN equipment/cables/dressing.

By the way, did you install the iFi iPower low-noise SMPS onto your (Netgear?) switch? Now that did make an audible difference when I installed mine.

Hope you feel better soon.

Thanks Nigel:-)

Our descriptions are not that dissimilar -- i also hear quite a lot more detail now --- but i may need to reposition spakers slightly to accomdodate the extra information. but to do this i need to make sure i am 100% well.

"In reality these small improvements tend to have a cumulative effect on SQ and it is often difficult to attribute an improvement SQ to one particular change in LAN equipment/cables/dressing." I agree 100%

Yes, i have this iFi Power gizmo -- when i installed it -- couldnt really tell any difference as there were probably other issues in my system then. It is unlikley to be doing any harm,but out of curiosity one of these days i might remove it and assess if i miss it. It a cheap enough upgrade. I will do the same for the US power supply,

Oh, NDS has been playing a random playlist:  and just played S&Gs "Only Living Boy in New York".

Holly Cow!

enjoy

ken

update: have been trying a linear power supply to my UnitiServeSSD -- for about a month.  my initial assessment was that it made streaming sound very impressive -- with highly enhanced bass -- but as time went on, the whole package began to sound somewhat 'exagerrated' in my active system. Then last night i removed the linear power supply and put back the stock Naim PS that came with the Unitiserve. Order was instantly restored. My daughter, unprompted, commented positively.

Next step: been in touch with BillyVee to try their version -- this will be delivered to me next week -- so will see how this goes when its settled.

enjoy

ken

just had Virginmedia in to upgrade my hub for a 'better' one -- apparently better wifi -- but this is not relevant for me as i use the hum in modem only mode and wifi is provided via AirPort Express. Interestingly, the first unit that the guy brought simply didnt turn on at all -- initially he was pointing an accusatory finger at my power block -- strange given that (a) the previous hub was working OK it and (b) other components plugged onto it (router, NAS, US etc) were working OK. Anyhow, eventually he figured out it was the unit at fault and fortunately he happened to have another one in the van -- and this worked immediately!

all this is by the by -- why i am posting this here is that he also installed some 'isolator' between the incoming fibre cable and the hub/modem. apparently should have had one fitted at inital install -- but the idea is to prevent mutual interference between the Virgin net and my local setup!!! what interference? mains and network apparently!!

hmmm.... how topical...

enjoy...

ken

Beautiful!

Any impact on your streaming set up, Ken?

Adam Zielinski posted:

Beautiful!

Any impact on your streaming set up, Ken?

thanks...  i havent assessed the impact yet Adam... but i expect it will be at worst neutral at best positive. i am also trying out the BillyVee UnitiServe power supply (badge engineered Long Dog unit). No conclusions yet but definitely no immediate negatives ...

enjoy...

ken

Ken - I don't think there should be any negative impact. If anything I would say, your LAN is now 'cleaner' because of the filter installed.

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

Ken - I don't think there should be any negative impact. If anything I would say, your LAN is now 'cleaner' because of the filter installed.

Adam

i agree ... as i said, worst case is neutral, but it can also of course get better... we'll see...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

can any of the experts here explains what the audible  impact of 'cross talk' of whatever type (Near End Cross Talk) or Alien Cross talk) is -- in the audio context? especially given what seems the experience of some here (including myself) UTP seems to have better SQ than screened cables -- Lindy adapter or not -- but of course i may have misunderstood that...

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken, sorry missed this. The audible effect of cross talk within the cable will be effectively non deterministic or essentially unpredictable. However the loading of of the twisted pairs and imperfections in the twists and reflections will cause a coupling of the physical Ethernet carrier frequencies into the connected equipment. This will modulate the ground and even modulate the iinternal powerlines causing system cross talk.. that is frequencies from one component impacting or modulating an other. If you are interested TI have provided a good design paper on mitigating these effects...I have posted it before on this forum, but can try to dig it out if you can't find.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ken c posted:

can any of the experts here explains what the audible  impact of 'cross talk' of whatever type (Near End Cross Talk) or Alien Cross talk) is -- in the audio context? especially given what seems the experience of some here (including myself) UTP seems to have better SQ than screened cables -- Lindy adapter or not -- but of course i may have misunderstood that...

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken, sorry missed this. The audible effect of cross talk within the cable will be effectively non deterministic or essentially unpredictable. However the loading of of the twisted pairs and imperfections in the twists and reflections will cause a coupling of the physical Ethernet carrier frequencies into the connected equipment. This will modulate the ground and even modulate the iinternal powerlines causing system cross talk.. that is frequencies from one component impacting or modulating an other. If you are interested TI have provided a good design paper on mitigating these effects...I have posted it before on this forum, but can try to dig it out if you can't find.

Simon

Simon many thanks. sounds interesting so yesi am interested in the paper you refer to.

enjoy...

ken

here you go

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

here you go

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

 

simon, many thanks. will read with interest...

enjoy

ken

a key result of all the fettling that i have been through is that my system is now very 'sensitive' to changes on the streaming side -- positioning of net components seems to matter quite a bit. i dont recall my system ever sounding as good as it does now -- specially in terms of very clear and accurate rendition of subtle instrument characteristics.

i have shielded mains cables from socket (fed by 6mm sq radial -- separate from one to main Hifi) to UPS and from UPS to 8 way block. i still have the ordinary unhielded mains leads so one of these days, out of curiosity, i will do a quick A/B to determine what these are bringing to the party -- hopefully A/B is enough. most of my ethernet cables are Cat6A, except to my PC (Cat 6) and between router and switch (Meicord Cat 6) -- but all are UTP.  proximity of net cables to 10mm sq radial cable in the pipe box doesnt seem to be an issue right now -- though the idea of replacing the mains radial with a shielded one crosses my mind every now and then... hey, lifes too short :-)

all good fun...

enjoy

ken