Ethernet cable installation...

Bananahead posted:

As a cinnamon user, it fills me with wonder that people think an ethernet cable can alter the sound in any way other than providing a more secure connection.

I am now looking forward to a thread that discusses the different sonic signatures that broadband providers overlay onto Tidal  streams.

i am claiming nothing. i am only reporting what i heard. i dont know the reason for the difference that i heard. i expected 'no differece' but what i got was 'worse' to these ears and in the context of my system. i leave explanations to folks like you who understand this better than i do... bottom line is that i willnot be using AQ cinnaon in my system...

enjoy...

ken

I have a Cinnamon full loom (!) and have found only positive outcomes. It sounds a lot better than bog standard cables. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I have a Cinnamon full loom (!) and have found only positive outcomes. It sounds a lot better than bog standard cables. 

Not surprising HH, such is th nature of this business.  but i believe i have now managd to convince myself that these ethernet wires do sound 'different', for whatever reason. whether the difference is better or worse is of course, as usual in this hobby of ours, 'in the ear of the beholder'

enjoy...

ken

Ive tried a few different ethernet cables in my system and can clearly hear a difference in sound between each. 

Of the cheapies I found belkin cat 6 to be the best sounding by a good margin, and this spured me on to try something a little better. I tried the meicord opal, one from synology nas to trendnet switch, and the other from switch to nds. The difference was very apparent, but although the sound had become much richer and fuller it was a bit too much. Next I tried the audioquest cinnamons. A pair of these dealt with the slightly warm and overblown sound the meicords had given, but now the sound had much more attack and ambience but lacked bass and warmth.

I then had the idea of mixing the two and this gave the best of both worlds and really gave a good balance to the sound. The sound was now as if a bottleneck had been removed when compared to the cheap belkin leads.

After further trials I now use an audioquest vodka between the switch and nds, and the meicord opal between the nas and switch. My music is now sounding sublime. The ethernet leads really do make a difference in a well set up system.

Mr Happy posted:

Ive tried a few different ethernet cables in my system and can clearly hear a difference in sound between each. 

Of the cheapies I found belkin cat 6 to be the best sounding by a good margin, and this spured me on to try something a little better. I tried the meicord opal, one from synology nas to trendnet switch, and the other from switch to nds. The difference was very apparent, but although the sound had become much richer and fuller it was a bit too much. Next I tried the audioquest cinnamons. A pair of these dealt with the slightly warm and overblown sound the meicords had given, but now the sound had much more attack and ambience but lacked bass and warmth.

I then had the idea of mixing the two and this gave the best of both worlds and really gave a good balance to the sound. The sound was now as if a bottleneck had been removed when compared to the cheap belkin leads.

After further trials I now use an audioquest vodka between the switch and nds, and the meicord opal between the nas and switch. My music is now sounding sublime. The ethernet leads really do make a difference in a well set up system.

Similar story to mine - ended up mixing various cables, with the most uplift given between a LAN socket and my NDSs. NAS to a switch and UnitiServe to LAN all wired with Chord C-Stream

SuperUniti ended up with a different cable altogether and UnitiQute2 with the same basic C-Stream. The more esoteric cables simply 'killed' the nature of the small beast (UQ2 that is.)

Mike - it's not the category of the cable (Cat-5 or 6 or 7) that makes a difference in my humble opinion. It is the quality of the wires used, plugs and shielding. As with anything - the better grade components used, the better the outcome (well.. most of the time )

So anyone know if I will get any benefits of a good Ethernet cable on my 2tb HDX.

As I see it, I now have all my hi-res music in the downloads folder, so no NAS during playback, only for back-ups. Therefore the only others reason I can see my HDX is linked to my router is for control through the n-stream app, and for finding metadata when I rip a CD. Would not have thought either of these affect the audio playback therefore struggling to see how the HDX would benefit. Perhaps for Internet radio, but that is so low resolution that I almost never use for real listening.

Am I missing something?

I tried forest cinnamon and vodka first on my HDX/Ndac/XPS and now on NDS i found th ebalance different and i could clearly experience that the NDS is more "demading" than the HDX on the care you put around the source of the files. On the HDX, i flet a forest better than the cinnamon between the router and the wall (going to the listening room). With the NDS, it didn't work, i tried a cinnamon back and it was much much better in the sound quality without any doubt. Then yes the cinnamon is a bit more open and the system was a bit more "arsch". A powerline was already installed on my nas (i have a 8 bays) and i tried a powerline on the switch (i have a 24 doors), then the medium went back very smooth and the top more refined and not "arsch" at all. Finally very sweet. Vodka never suit my personnal taste, making too much.

All in all to say that you have to consider more than one cable and have to put attention to all devices amount the NDS to get the best of it. And again, this box is more demanding than the HDX/Ndac. But the result is also in an other category.
Cheers

CariocaJeff posted:

So anyone know if I will get any benefits of a good Ethernet cable on my 2tb HDX.

As I see it, I now have all my hi-res music in the downloads folder, so no NAS during playback, only for back-ups. Therefore the only others reason I can see my HDX is linked to my router is for control through the n-stream app, and for finding metadata when I rip a CD. Would not have thought either of these affect the audio playback therefore struggling to see how the HDX would benefit. Perhaps for Internet radio, but that is so low resolution that I almost never use for real listening.

Am I missing something?

In your case the playback is from a local drive. So no - just make sure that the cable you have is a minimu Cat-5 and is of a decent quality. By that I mean the plugs don't fall appart and fit sungly into sockets. This will give you a stable internet connection.

Adam, 

thanks thats at what I thought,

jeff

Adam Zielinski posted:

Mike - it's not the category of the cable (Cat-5 or 6 or 7) that makes a difference in my humble opinion. It is the quality of the wires used, plugs and shielding. As with anything - the better grade components used, the better the outcome (well.. most of the time )

List of data cabling and appropriate connector standards. Note only TIA/EiA approved cable/connector combinations are officially supported for Ethernet RJ45 connections. Currently CAT7 is not formally universally recognised as suitable for Ethernet use.

Cat 1 None POTS, ISDN and doorbell wiring
Cat 2 None 4 Mbps token ring networks
Cat 3 TIA/EIA 568-B 10 Mbps Ethernet - frequency up to 16MHz
Cat 4 None 16 Mbps token ring networks - frequency up to 20MHz
Cat 5 None 100 Mbps Ethernet - frequency up to 100 MHz Not suitable for GigE (1000BaseT)
Cat 5e TIA/EIA 568-B 100 Mbps & GigE Ethernet - frequency up to 100 MHz
Cat 6 TIA/EIA 568-B 2x Performance of Cat 5 & 5e - frequency up to 250 MHz
Cat 6a None Future specification for 10Gbps application
Cat 7 ISO/IEC 11801 Class F Designed for frequencies up to 600 MHz

and yes as Mike says the EMI produced and conducted will vary across the cable types

It's interesting how the Ethernet cable debate has evolved over the years.

In the early days there was absolute certainty that cables couldn't make a difference and much talk of "expectation bias" as an explanation of the findings of those who tried them. Now it seems to be widely accepted that there are differences, but they vary from one manufacturer to the next and some (usually Audioquest) actually make the music sound worse.

For what it's worth, I agree with HH.

Keith

The trouble with ethernet cables is that they are surrounded with so much hype, misinformation, lack of understanding (possibly because nobody really understands how they effect SQ) and diametrically opposing views that it is impossible to get a reasoned, logical and sensible view of their benefit with regard to SQ.

The ONLY way to make sense of this is to try some different ethernet cables in your own system (reserving the 'best' offerings to closest to the streamer and switch) and make your own mind up. There have been some good suggestions of ethernet cables worth 'auditioning' in this thread.

That is how I did it and have ended up with AQ Vodka from Unitiserve to switch and from switch to NDS with AQ Cinnamon everywhere else except Belkin Cat 6 screened for the long run from router to Sky box.

I wouldn't recommend taking a punt on expensive ethernet cables as their effect seems to be so variable. Always try to borrow some from a friendly dealer which takes all the risk away.

One more observation - actually Chord in their brochure, state that what they offer are 'streaming cables' not 'Ethernet cables'. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

One more observation - actually Chord in their brochure, state that what they offer are 'streaming cables' not 'Ethernet cables'. 

And will probably save them from the ASA too...

As I have 2 AQ Cinammon (NAS to switch, switch to NDX) and one Cat6 Furutech (AirExpress to switch) cables I swapped them so as to have the CAT6 on the NDX and the AQ between the Express and the switch. Played the Randy Crawford's "Tender fall the rain" track on Tidal; cannot say I hear differences with respect to the kinda  "resonant" electric piano part between the two sets (Ken not sure if this was the part of the track that got your attention). Just to add some controversy to the discussion, the AQ cables are directional :-) 

james n posted:

And will probably save them from the ASA too...

........  yer might well be close on that one.  The "streaming" change was made around May 2014 when the ASA case was already in process.  ASA ruling on the Sarum Tuned ARAY "streaming cable" was November 2014

Ah i saw the Naim powerline one - didn't realise Chord had the same. Must have a Google :-)

DrPo posted:

As I have 2 AQ Cinammon (NAS to switch, switch to NDX) and one Cat6 Furutech (AirExpress to switch) cables I swapped them so as to have the CAT6 on the NDX and the AQ between the Express and the switch. Played the Randy Crawford's "Tender fall the rain" track on Tidal; cannot say I hear differences with respect to the kinda  "resonant" electric piano part between the two sets (Ken not sure if this was the part of the track that got your attention). Just to add some controversy to the discussion, the AQ cables are directional :-) 

DrPro, thanks for comments. i started feeling 'uncomtortable' with piano re-production on Beethoven - The Piano Trios. Then i moved on to that Randy Crawford track -- and this confirmed my discomfort. I believe i had the cable direction correct -- arrow from NAS to switch. it could be significant that the AQ was shielded while the other 2 cables (switch to NDS and witch to UnitiServe/SSD are not)  but i dont know.

Reading the documentation for the NAS -- i notice that the recommend user doesnt change the cable that came with it to connect to the LAN. if all cables are the 'same' i wonder why they would recommend this?

Perhaps we face the same Analogue domain issues with these ethernet cables after all? or ...

enjoy

ken

Ken, official Ethernet cables - ie Cat 5e and 6 are defined for use as 10/100/1000BaseT Ethernet use. A cable complying with these Cat definitions and the TIA wiring connectivity specifications can be used and are interchangeable. it is also possible - although kind of less likely now that a cable could only incorporate 2 twisted pairs as opposed to 4 twisted pairs. 2 pairs allows for duplex 10/100 BaseT operation. 4 pairs are required for 1000BaseT operation, so your NAS manufacturer may want you to use their 4 pair cable to reduce support calls from consumers inadvertently using their own 2 pair cable and wondering why they cant get GigE connection

Cables that don't comply or are for non 10/100/1000 BaseT Ethernet use - then yes be careful.

And I believe the majority of the audible 'differences' we hear from these cables when connected to sensitive audio equipment comes from the analogue EM fields created that are used to encode the 'digital' signals. Remember digital is an abstraction - it will always ultimately be analogue

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ken, official Ethernet cables - ie Cat 5e and 6 are defined for use as 10/100/1000BaseT Ethernet use. A cable complying with these Cat definitions and the TIA wiring connectivity specifications can be used and are interchangeable. it is also possible - although kind of less likely now that a cable could only incorporate 2 twisted pairs as opposed to 4 twisted pairs. 2 pairs allows for duplex 10/100 BaseT operation. 4 pairs are required for 1000BaseT operation, so your NAS manufacturer may want you to use their 4 pair cable to reduce support calls from consumers inadvertently using their own 2 pair cable and wondering why they cant get GigE connection

Cables that don't comply or are for non 10/100/1000 BaseT Ethernet use - then yes be careful.

And I believe the majority of the audible 'differences' we hear from these cables when connected to sensitive audio equipment comes from the analogue EM fields created that are used to encode the 'digital' signals. Remember digital is an abstraction - it will always ultimately be analogue

Simon

Thanks for following up on this Simon...

so what you are saying is that particular NAS manufacturers may require a particulat spec of Ethernet cable? is this just a question of 2 pairs vs 4 pairs or are there other specifications assuming appropriate Cat nx? What is a GigE connection and how do you know when you havent got it?

i have absolutely no difficulty understanding that digit is encoded onto analogue so we can ever completely escape some analogue issues.

enjoy

ken

Caveat: I'm not a cable skeptic.  When I moved from Naim lavender cables to HiLine and then to Super Lumina each change was significant and noticeable.  I now have a full SL loom.

Wish I could say the same with Ethernet cables!

When I bought my NDS/555 I also purchased a 1.5M AQ Cinnamon (NAS to switch) and an 8m one (switch to NDS).  I later tried a "bog standard" £20 cat 6 Ethernet cable, replacing the 8m AQ one.  I couldn't hear a difference.

When I recently tried a Melco N1Z I was leant a £1500 Chord STA Ethernet cable and a Melco one (I believe around £75).  They were used as the connection from Melco to NDS.  I couldn't hear a difference between those either...

Now, I'm not going to fall into the trap of therefore telling everyone else who CAN hear a difference that they are wrong because maybe I am cloth eared.  Or maybe other people experience different things, which isn't unreasonable.  I did expect to hear a difference and was surprised when I couldn't.