Ethernet cable installation...

the issue could be Graham, that other issues, specific to a particular set up often get in the way, so it can be hard to isolate any differences as being due to the cable itself or cable + other stuff. for me, with the AQ Cinnamon in, music was somewhat skewed in a way which i didnt like. As i say also, NetGear recommend NOT to substitute their cable so i guess they must know a thing or two... i dont...

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ken

Ken - although I am sure the vast majority if not all new cables are 4 pair - there does exist 2 pair, and even a single pair cable for 10/100BaseT half duplex communication. This was more the norm in the days of hubs rather than network switches as we almost universally have now.

Other than that there is no difference with regard to data.

A GigE is a snappy name for a 1000BaseT connection - which means the link speed is 1000Mbps. On unmanaged switches there will usually be some sort of LED indication on the port to show whether GigE or not. The switch will try and negotiate GigE and then fall back as appropriate if the other end is unable to comply.  Naim doesn't support GigE - just 100 BaseT (100Mbps)  - and possibly 10 BaseT (10Mbps)

Simon

ken c posted:

the issue could be Graham, that other issues, specific to a particular set up often get in the way, so it can be hard to isolate any differences as being due to the cable itself or cable + other stuff. for me, with the AQ Cinnamon in, music was somewhat skewed in a way which i didnt like. As i say also, NetGear recommend NOT to substitute their cable so i guess they must know a thing or two... i dont...

enjoy

ken

Quite - It's all very system dependent particularly regarding the environment around the system what the network itself is like. You're hanging what can be a very effective antenna off the back of your network player so i'm not surprised that people do hear differences (or not as the case may be) when they try different cables. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ken - although I am sure the vast majority if not all new cables are 4 pair - there does exist 2 pair, and even a single pair cable for 10/100BaseT half duplex communication. This was more the norm in the days of hubs rather than network switches as we almost universally have now.

Other than that there is no difference with regard to data.

A GigE is a snappy name for a 1000BaseT connection - which means the link speed is 1000Mbps. On unmanaged switches there will usually be some sort of LED indication on the port to show whether GigE or not. The switch will try and negotiate GigE and then fall back as appropriate if the other end is unable to comply.  Naim doesn't support GigE - just 100 BaseT (100Mbps)  - and possibly 10 BaseT (10Mbps)

Simon

 

i take it then that 2 pair vs 4 pair is unlikely to be relevant to the differences we are discussing here, and that it is likely that the cable that came with the NAS is a 4 pair too (so, i guess, is AQ Cinnamon that i tried)?

Thanks for explaining GigE -- cant recall why this was relevant now ... :-)

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ken

ken c posted:

the issue could be Graham, that other issues, specific to a particular set up often get in the way, so it can be hard to isolate any differences as being due to the cable itself or cable + other stuff. for me, with the AQ Cinnamon in, music was somewhat skewed in a way which i didnt like. As i say also, NetGear recommend NOT to substitute their cable so i guess they must know a thing or two... i dont...

enjoy

ken

Are you sure you didn't mean "The issue could be Graham <full stop>"?

In such situations (not just this single example) I do sit back and wonder what could be causing the difference as it would be insulting to just assume that the other person was imagining it.  In this case maybe the amount of EM noise in the close vicinity could be a factor here and maybe my lounge is better than average.  Certainly the comments I got about the Melco suggested that it made less of a difference in my system than it did at the dealer's premises.

What is the context of NetGear's recommendation, was it a general comment or an audio related one?  If it was the former it could simply be based on NetGear having wasted a lot of support time diagnosing problems caused by people using whatever Ethernet cable they have to hand, resulting in NetGear thinking "sod it, we'll supply a known good cable, tell everyone to use it and then eliminate a lot of support calls" which would have been more expensive to them than a £1 cable.

Graham Clarke posted:

ken c posted:

the issue could be Graham, that other issues, specific to a particular set up often get in the way, so it can be hard to isolate any differences as being due to the cable itself or cable + other stuff. for me, with the AQ Cinnamon in, music was somewhat skewed in a way which i didnt like. As i say also, NetGear recommend NOT to substitute their cable so i guess they must know a thing or two... i dont...

enjoy

ken

Are you sure you didn't mean "The issue could be Graham <full stop>"?

In such situations (not just this single example) I do sit back and wonder what could be causing the difference as it would be insulting to just assume that the other person was imagining it.  In this case maybe the amount of EM noise in the close vicinity could be a factor here and maybe my lounge is better than average.  Certainly the comments I got about the Melco suggested that it made less of a difference in my system than it did at the dealer's premises.

What is the context of NetGear's recommendation, was it a general comment or an audio related one?  If it was the former it could simply be based on NetGear having wasted a lot of support time diagnosing problems caused by people using whatever Ethernet cable they have to hand, resulting in NetGear thinking "sod it, we'll supply a known good cable, tell everyone to use it and then eliminate a lot of support calls" which would have been more expensive to them than a £1 cable.

punctuaton was never my strong point. 

yes, EM noise could be an issue, though i wish one could be more definitive about such issues. there seem to be lots of 'maybe's in this 'field' (ha ha...)

your and Simon's assumption on why netGear insist on users only connecting with cable they supply is probably correct.

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ken

talking about EM, how does one 'dress' ethernet cables to minimise this effect?

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ken

ken c posted:

talking about EM, how does one 'dress' ethernet cables to minimise this effect?

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ken

Dress it with this

Sorry.  I'll proceed to here.

Well if it offers either 10, 100 or 1000 BaseT then it could operate with one, two or four pair cables.

Mike as discussed earlier on - we speculated the supplied cable being 4 pairs would minimise connectivity queries to support with queries on as to why the NAS is not connecting at 1000Mbps to a GigE switch - if the customer used their own cable - it could be one, two or four pair - and the outward cable and connector appearance would be similar/identical - and of course only four pair can support GigE.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Keep them away from other cables - and if you need to cross try and be at 90 degrees

OK thanks, Simon. there is only ethernet cables where the comms equipment is -- one mains cable and i have already made sure this is routed away from the net cables...

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ken

Graham Clarke posted:

ken c posted:

talking about EM, how does one 'dress' ethernet cables to minimise this effect?

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ken

Dress it with this

Sorry.  I'll proceed to here.

  could be tricky... but thanks Graham

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ken

Mike-B posted:

Ken,  I.m a bit sceptical about your Netgear NAS special ethernet requirements,  the port is shown in the models spec as 

Auto Sense 10/100/1000BASE-T, RJ-45

Nothing strange about that, it just needs a normal 4 pair cable

sounds to me that 4 pair cable is more common that 2 pair, in which case one has to consciously have a good reason to use a 2 pair. so it strikes me their advice should have perhaps more specific -- i.e. use any 4 pair cable (rather than saying use our cable, though i can see this is much simpler advice for the general user out there...)

. does it matter screened or unscreened?

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ken

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,   It doesn't matter if screened or not 

Your Cinnamon is screened

My Meicord is not screened

 

I agree its better to say 4 pair & not Use the one supplied,  that is very limiting & off puutting for a user who is not familiar with such things.

Mike-B, many thanks 

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ken

FWIW, since last night, i am trying out Meicord Opal Cat-6 between my NAS and switch... but i dont believe there is much appetite for my findings so far... :-)

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ken

no, not really a tease Mike-B. its early days yet -- i just want to give it time. But i did confuse the picture a little by dressing up all cables (power and net) around the router/switch and NAS drive. There is now very good separation between the 2 sets, though 100% is of course not possible.

since i had to switch all the comms equipment off (in fact i also switched my US and NDS off, probably not necessary i know, but this made me feel better) i was able to install a new battery for the UPS APC RS800 -- which i had been putting off for sometime, to my cost when the security system installer accidentally triggered a power cut :-(

will report sound quality issues later -- to the extent there will be any.

I havent installed a Meicord for the switch to NDS yet -- just noticed that the cable had minimum radius requirements for where it needs to be guided around corners -- not sure i can do it within the constraints -- but i will see...

thanks or your interest Mike-B

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ken

ken c posted:

no, not really a tease Mike-B. its early days yet -- i just want to give it time.   ........   I havent installed a Meicord for the switch to NDS yet -- just noticed that the cable had minimum radius requirements for where it needs to be guided around corners -- not sure i can do it within the constraints -- but i will see... 

Bend radius is an important "be careful" Ken,  over bending an Ethernet will distort the designed twist geometry & affect performance.   Cat5 is actually easier to bend out of shape than Cat6 - for an cable in-sensitive moron that is - .   I just don't push my bends too much & find that what I think is right is a larger radius than the mnft spec.

Ken, Is the meicord brand new? Have you tried it both ways around as they are directional? What is it about the sound that you dont like at present with the meicord?

Mr Happy posted:

Ken, Is the meicord brand new? Have you tried it both ways around as they are directional? What is it about the sound that you dont like at present with the meicord?

Hmmm... i havent said i dont like it? i have said its early days yet...

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ken

You actually said "there is not much appetite for it so far", that read to me that you are not keen on it at the moment, but indeed it is early days yet.

I asked the above questions as any one of these issues could affect the sound, as they did in my case. 

Mr Happy posted:

You actually said "there is not much appetite for it so far", that read to me that you are not keen on it at the moment, but indeed it is early days yet.

I asked the above questions as any one of these issues could affect the sound, as they did in my case. 

its my poor English. i meant that i didnt believe there was that much interest in my findings so far...

you are of course correct that many variables could affect the outcome. the cable run from the switch to the NDS is not so st fwd so messing about with cable directionality is unlikely to feature in my assessment.  right now, i am a little more worries about the min radius constraint and whether its going to be possible given how the cable will be routed

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ken

Ken, I have an 8m Cinnamon wire from my switch in the dining room to the 272 in the sitting room. It has to go through the doorway, because I didn't want to drill a big hole in the wall. It therefore has two quite tight bends, as shown in the picture below. The wire is actually pretty bendy. I didn't notice any ill effects from bending it and fitting the cable grips, compared to having it laid loose. Maybe you should just install the wires to have and forget about looking at alternatives.