Ethernet cable installation...

Posted by: ken c on 22 January 2016

i bought 2 Audioquest cables quite sometime ago -

1 x AudioQuest Cinnamon RJ/E Ethernet Cable 0.75m (Cinnamon RJ/E 0.75m)

1 x AudioQuest Cinnamon RJ/E Ethernet Cable 12m (Cinnamon RJ/E 12m)

Very expensive for an Ethernet cable but i had heard good things about these so decided to try them.

When they were delivered, i never got round to installing them -- my system was sounding mighty fine anyhow and i didnt want to "upset" things.

Today, i felt i need to move the security system from the GS108 switch (where all the streaming ports are) to the router itself. In the process, i decided well, why not try to deploy the AQ 0.75m between the NAS drive and the switch?

Well, i have done it and i am playing my NDS right now.

Do i detect any difference in SQ? I can easily convince myself that it sounds better --but nowehere near the hit you in the face improvement that i got from upgrading the snaxo cable to SL.

i need to try the longer cable now, to the NDS itself -- this will take some doing -- but after paying so much -- i am curious now. again i dont expect an earth shattering difference .. in fact i might end up not liking it anyhow -- we'll see...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by ken c

Hungryhalibut posted:
Ken, I have an 8m Cinnamon wire from my switch in the dining room to the 272 in the sitting room. It has to go through the doorway, because I didn't want to drill a big hole in the wall. It therefore has two quite tight bends, as shown in the picture below. The wire is actually pretty bendy. I didn't notice any ill effects from bending it and fitting the cable grips, compared to having it laid loose. Maybe you should just install the wires to have and forget about looking at alternatives.

thanks HH -- i will try to figure out a mimimum bend strategy and give it a go when i have some time. mine has to come through the wall above the door to my office -- potential tight squeeze as i go around the door frame -- but perhaps i will work out some way -- where there is a will etc etc...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by hungryhalibut

Exactly so. Get that Black & Decker fired up.

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by james n

Ken - it wasn't clear from all the ramblings in this thread whether you'd tried the long run of Audioquest cable to see if it actually made any difference in your system before concerning yourself with the routing of said cable into a permanent installation.

If you have and it did and you've reached this point then apologies for missing that post, but if not then maybe that would be worth a try ?

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by ken c

james n posted:
Ken - it wasn't clear from all the ramblings in this thread whether you'd tried the long run of Audioquest cable to see if it actually made any difference in your system before concerning yourself with the routing of said cable into a permanent installation.
If you have and it did and you've reached this point then apologies for missing that post, but if not then maybe that would be worth a try ?

Hi James,

You're right i do ramble on a bit...

No i didnt try the long run of AQ at all --- i wasnt happy with the results when i used the shorter cable between the router and switch -- so i gave up on AQ completely -- rightly or wrongly.

when i get the chance to figure out a less stressful run for he Meicord, i will give it a shot... and then continue the ramblings...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by Mike-B

Hungryhalibut posted:
It therefore has two quite tight bends, as shown in the picture below....................

Sorry HH, but I would not be happy with those bends, especially the one in the carpet area. But if you can't detect any issues - i.e. you're happy with SQ - then OK.

My install stnds book says the bend radius for STP (thats your Cat7 Cinnamon) is 8 times the cable diameter, the non-screened UTP (Cat5 & Cat6) recommendation is 4 times the cable diameter.

e.g. a 7mm dia Cat7 cable should be 56mm radius (thats maybe better visualised as a 112mm [4.4 inch] circle)

My new Meicord (Cat6) is more specific & says 40mm radius, thats dia x 6.

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by nigelb

Ken, I have found that so called 'better' ethernet cables produce the best results (in terms of SQ enhancement) the closer (in sequence, not distance) they are to the streamer. I therefore have my 'best' ethernet cable between the switch and my NDS, and next best (the same model for me actually) between the server and switch and next best between switch and router. From what you have said (re directionality testing), I realise that for you the cable between your switch and your NDS is awkward and maybe tricky to fiddle with. It seems however that you are now focussing your testing of ethernet cables on the link between switch and server (NAS) whereas the most critical link is between switch and NDS IMHO.

I do however accept there maybe very good reasons why you don't want to play with the switch/NDS link. Or I may have completely misunderstood your trials so far.

Posted on: 02 February 2016 by ken c

thanks for following up on this.

its not that i dont want to 'play' with switch to NDS link - i just need to work out a stess-free run for it -- i.e. not too sharp bends as recommende by the cable maker. my server is UnitiServe/SSD and that is in the same room as the NDS, though on opposite sides of the room. The NDS is with other Naim equipment on the Fraim. The ony reason i started with switch to NAS is that this is the simplest as these 2 are sitting on the same shelf in the utility room. i may post a few photos... or...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by Mike-B

Hi Ken, any news on your cable comparisons ???

I had an interesting session last evening with AQ Cinnamon, Supra & my new Meicord(s).

Expecting to have it all done in one evening, it will take a while longer, thanks in no small part to my Linn friend who has enlightened me on the Linn Tune Dem techniques.

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by ken c

sorry Mike-B, havent had a chance to route the Meicord from the switch to the NDS -- this will require quite a bit of messing about -- made a bit more difficult by the fact that i need somehow to avoid sharp corners to stay within the maximum radius constraint, especially when the cables come through above the door frame to my office, as you can see below:

off to the right are 2 ethernet cables, one to my workstation(blue) and the other to the UnitiServe/SSD (grey)

off to the left (grey) is the ethernet cable for the NDS, so i need to figure out a way to avoid sharp bends right there -- and as the cable goes around the door frame, before the straight run to the NDS along the skirting board.

but will all this potential messing about, i ask myself, why bother!?

sigh...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by Mike-B

Hi again Ken, have you considered running a test with the Meicord trailed around the floor. Last evening - in addition to the installed Meicord - I had AQ Cinnamon, Supra & Lindy trailed around; & to your test situation - we all came to some reasonably firm & unanimous opinions fairly quickly.

Although we are continuing the experiment during this coming week, its with a short list & will be just quickly confirming the switch-NDX section, but then swapping various between switch-NAS.

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by ken c

Mike-B posted:
Hi again Ken, have you considered running a test with the Meicord trailed around the floor. Last evening - in addition to the installed Meicord - I had AQ Cinnamon, Supra & Lindy trailed around; & to your test situation - we all came to some reasonably firm & unanimous opinions fairly quickly.
Although we are continuing the experiment during this coming week, its with a short list & will be just quickly confirming the switch-NDX section, but then swapping various between switch-NAS.

Hi Mike-B, yes have considered simply running the cable on the floor from utility room to my office -- but i have had my little nieces around the house over the weekend and they love to pull cables,... or simply trip over them!!

hopefully i will have a chance to try something over the next couple of days, work allowing.

it was interesting to hear from someone here -- cant recall who, that there is some kind of hierarchy with these network cables, apparently, the one from switch to NDS is most important, followed by switch to NAS and then switch to UnitiServe (may have got the last 2 wrong...). if this hierarchy is correct -- then the cable run from switch to NDS seems key to this trial...

ho hum...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by nigelb

ken c posted:
Mike-B posted:
Hi again Ken, have you considered running a test with the Meicord trailed around the floor. Last evening - in addition to the installed Meicord - I had AQ Cinnamon, Supra & Lindy trailed around; & to your test situation - we all came to some reasonably firm & unanimous opinions fairly quickly.
Although we are continuing the experiment during this coming week, its with a short list & will be just quickly confirming the switch-NDX section, but then swapping various between switch-NAS.
Hi Mike-B, yes have considered simply running the cable on the floor from utility room to my office -- but i have had my little nieces around the house over the weekend and they love to pull cables,... or simply trip over them!!
hopefully i will have a chance to try something over the next couple of days, work allowing.
it was interesting to hear from someone here -- cant recall who, that there is some kind of hierarchy with these network cables, apparently, the one from switch to NDS is most important, followed by switch to NAS and then switch to UnitiServe (may have got the last 2 wrong...). if this hierarchy is correct -- then the cable run from switch to NDS seems key to this trial...
ho hum...
enjoy
ken

Ken, it was me that 'suggested' a hierarchy for the importance (in terms of their influence) of Ethernet cables and, assuming you stream from the Unitiserve rather than NAS then the hierarchy is as follows from most important first

1 switch to NDS

2 switch to Unitiserve

3 switch to router

4 NAS to router

As you say, enjoy.

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by ken c

Thanks Nigelb. My NAS is connected to the switch instead of the router because i thought that was the right way of doing it (i.e. all audio on the switch). is that wrong?

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by nigelb

Ken, that is a perfectly fine way of connecting your network. Even so, assuming you stream from the Unitiserve and use the NAS for backup duties, then the hierarchy is still as I have indicated above with the NAS to switch last as this is merely for backup.

Remember this is not a proven hard and fast rule but I have heard benefits from putting the best cable on the switch to NDS and would certainly suggest you experiment with loose ethernet cables on this link first.

Cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 07 February 2016 by ken c

thanks nigelb -- i will bear that in mind.

i have Bill Evans "At the Village Vanguard" ready and waiting to help me assess this yet another ethernet cable! I must admit it does look and feel good -- and the connectors suggest 'quality' -- well, as if i know what i'm talking about.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by Mike-B

Hi again Ken, I (we) have finally come to a conclusion over this cable test. My buddy is a Linn owner & has AQ Cinnamon between switch & KDS. He bought this around to be part of the test, we used a few other cables as well but that gets complicated, so to focus on just the AQ Cinnamon & MeiCord.

But before I get accused of hyperbole, these differences are small & far from obvious, I hear them because I'm so familiar with my own system sound, but I will say my wife noticed the MeiCords were different without any prompting.

We tried all the cables on the switch-NDX section, the NAS-switch section stayed as the 0.5m of MeiCord.

My first impression on the MeiCord (compared to my old Supra) from 2 weeks ago is a richer, warmer sound, its more open with space, clarity & definition. I'm still hearing that but now am better able to pick out individual instruments & voices in the mix & how it integrates into the music. I am also now hearing variations in sound stage width & depth that I had not noticed before, & I mean variations on the same album, even the same track. My Linnie friend hears the same, he also follows the Linn Tune Dem method & commented on the ease of following individual instruments & its overall musicality; he preferred the MeiCord's in that regard.

Compared to the MeiCord I found the Cinnamon to be more detailed in mid & treble, but the detail is not there in the low end & is less warm, it almost seems like less or softened bass. The detail gives an impression of being more forward & it does help separate out the individual instruments. Following individual instruments is maybe easier than with MeiCord, but for me its a touch less musical & is spoilt by the low end. My buddy was very put off by how different it sounded to his home set-up. He felt the detail in the Cinnamon was important & did not think the bass was lacking. We agreed the musicality & the projection of individual instruments was the same.

I'm sold on the MeiCord(s) & will not be changing. My buddy is not changing his Cinnamon on the switch-KDS section, but is in the process of changing his house (office) set up & will be replacing the installed 15m of Micro Connect Cat6 to the NAS with something shorter. He was considering either more Micro Connect or Cinnamon, now he's added Meicord to the list & I get the feeling it will be MeiCord.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by Mr Happy

Mike,

Try an audioquest vodka between the switch and ndx. You can get one on dem to try. I felt this had all the good points of both the meicord and cinnamon, and worked best in my system with the meicord between nas and switch. I tried using vodka on both but the result was a very full on sound. Almost as if everything was turned full up in the mix with no air between anything.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by Chris Bell

I've tried the Audioquest Cinnamon and Evergreen ethernet cables. The Chord C-Stream ethernet cable is much more musical. Great value for money. I use C-Stream and Sarum Tuned Aray in my NDS based system with excellent results.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by ken c

Mike-B, thanks for the update. sounds like you guys had fun trying out the cables!

i am still running meicord between NAS and switch. the next experiment i will try is a run of Meicord from switch to NDS as it seems this is somewhat more 'important'. i dont really know whether the experiment makes sense with Meicord on NDS and NAS but my bog-std '2 a penny' ethernet cable to the UnitiServe/SSD...

initially i will run the cable outside the conduit where other cables are - unfortunately including my 100mm sq radial mains -- but such is life!! :-(

i will make sure that i will be able to isolate the effects to the cable -- will be interesting. i will make sure the system is sounding excellent before trying... so that i will feel really stupid doing it (in the sense of, why bother? )

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by nigelb

Mr Happy posted:
Mike,
Try an audioquest vodka between the switch and ndx. You can get one on dem to try. I felt this had all the good points of both the meicord and cinnamon, and worked best in my system with the meicord between nas and switch. I tried using vodka on both but the result was a very full on sound. Almost as if everything was turned full up in the mix with no air between anything.

+1 to this suggestion. Except I have Vodka between both NDS/switch and Unitiserve/switch and don't find it too full on and plenty of air too. I do agree however that the streamer/switch link is the most critical.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by Mike-B

Mr Happy posted:
Mike, Try an audioquest vodka between the switch and ndx. You can get one on dem to try. I felt this had all the good points of both the meicord and cinnamon, and worked best in my system with the meicord between nas and switch. I tried using vodka on both but the result was a very full on sound. Almost as if everything was turned full up in the mix with no air between anything.

I hear ya Mr Happy, but I'm not going there. I'm willing to try if a buddy wants to bring one to a test much like I've done with the Cinnamon, but I would not trouble a dealer unless I was more than half way serious.

To repeat what I said in the post above; the differences are small & far from obvious, so with that in mind & based on what I know of the Vodka I'm asking myself ........

Is the Vodka all its claimed to be: Its probably not complying to Cat7 according to some www testing & what I've seen of its construction - www . arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/............ tear-apart-a-340-audiophile-ethernet.

The wire pair twist rate does not look anything like what I would expect in a Cat7, it looks more like Cat5 to me. I'm not sure what the twist rate is for Cat7, but Cat6 is 2 to 2.5 twists/cm (Cat5 is 1.4 - 1.9 t/cm) & further it does not look like each of the individual pairs have different twist rates (as is required to reduce cross talk to meet the category spec)

The Telegartner RJ/E-45 plugs are Cat6A & they alone will probably limit the whole patch cord to Cat6A at best.

ARS also ran a test & because Cat7 does not have TIA rating, they tested it to Cat6A: it achieved a "marginal pass" for NEXT But a marginal pass for Cat6A is not impressive for such an expensive cable when it claims to be Cat7 - & paying for something that its not, is not VFM in my head.

OK OK I know the network players only need 32MHz/100mbps & the Cat6A 500MHz performance means its got headroom reserve in bucket loads, & yes the proof of the pudding is in the sound quality .......... but my engineering head says no.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by hungryhalibut

ken c posted:
Mike-B, thanks for the update. sounds like you guys had fun trying out the cables!
i am still running meicord between NAS and switch. the next experiment i will try is a run of Meicord from switch to NDS as it seems this is somewhat more 'important'. i dont really know whether the experiment makes sense with Meicord on NDS and NAS but my bog-std '2 a penny' ethernet cable to the UnitiServe/SSD...
initially i will run the cable outside the conduit where other cables are - unfortunately including my 100mm sq radial mains -- but such is life!! :-(
i will make sure that i will be able to isolate the effects to the cable -- will be interesting. i will make sure the system is sounding excellent before trying... so that i will feel really stupid doing it (in the sense of, why bother? )
enjoy
ken

That's seriously big mains.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by Mike-B

Hungryhalibut posted:
That's seriously big mains.

........... and something to SERIOUSLY avoid running an ethernet near.

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by nigelb

Mike - are you sure you don't want to try AQ Vodka?

Posted on: 09 February 2016 by Mike-B

nigelb posted:
Mike - are you sure you don't want to try AQ Vodka?

Hi Nigel ........ like I said ....... I'm willing to try if a buddy wants to bring one to test much like I've done with the Cinnamon.

I've a very open mind but do find it hard to justify - or maybe I should say I can't imagine - the value in such small SQ gains against the cost of these boutique cables. I've heard positive gains moving from my previous Supra Cat7+ (1300MHz) to MeiCord Cat6 (250MHz), so it seems big cat & mhz numbers don't mean much. That said I do understand electricity - I lectured on it - & also knowing the price of manufacturing cable I am amazed by the exotic sales price of this boutique stuff.

I guess I'm just a tight fisted old skinflint