Ethernet cable installation...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

All this talk of electrical noise on the Ethernet cable fails to address the elephant in the room, TCP/IP noise. Depending on media transfer rate on the network I have observed two quite different modes of TCP operation. One creates more two way network traffic than the other.. and to my ears they 'sound' different. The method is for the most part determined by the TCP data rate from the server and how the streamer responds.

In my listening tests more rapid bursty transfers sound slightly better than slower more consistent transfers. The latter requires the streamer/renderer to create far more network traffic back to the server.

i think, yet I need to do more measurements, this accounts for differeing qualities in part from different media server /OS stacks and the varying quality from streaming services such as Tidal.

ok not quite as exciting as gravational waves.. but to date this phenomenon has been largely ignored as dragons have been chased elsewhere. I will create a dedicated post at some point with findings... but I will wait until the current beta firmware is released.

Simon 

Simon, I think there are many like me.  We understand some elements of the theory of networking, and know in principle what a network stack is, but have insufficient experience to recognise effects when we encounter them.  Furthermore we lack the experience of using tools to look at them or to look at their effects in data streams.  So to us, like the elephant, they are largely invisible.  Even though we know the elephant is there we (for the most part) can't touch it, smell it or even see it; and when we hear it we don't know that's anything different from normal background noise.

So to identify the elephant properly, we need knowledgeable people like yourself to guide us.  And I for one am really pleased you've volunteered to investigate and shine the torch of knowledge in the right direction, so the rest of us partially sighted folk can start to see.  It's hard to talk coherently or sensibly about something you can't see or really understand.

On the other hand, I and some others and quite conversant with theory and practice of RFI supression and are happy to clip ferrites on the elephant's trunk, tail and ... 

Sorry folks, there are times when silly photos are appropriate  .......

Mike  

Huge - I guess its not network theory I am looking at but empirical observation of the pattern of what is being conveyed on the wires - yes the audio effects are subjective and the exact causes and manner of the perturbations is theoretical - as I feel I cant prove with out a suitable RF spectrum analyzer. But the RF EMI here would be local to the streamer network hardware and streamer power supplies.  Network theory is a whole other matter - and I am not sure how much it would apply to Naim..... but I haven't thought about that too much 

Just hope that torch doesn't illuminate too many red herrings, but the focus on the Ethernet wires without focussing on what causes the effects in the wires in the first place appears strange to my engineering way of thinking about things....

I have NDS/2x555PS & NAS connected directly (close) to switch (HP). There are absolutely no errors in the network, not even earlier when data was routed via other rooms to switch in very RF noisy place. Changing the switch to close by & using better one did make a big improvement.

I also have Audioquest Vodka, Diamond, Chord C-Stream + various bulk cables & those all sounds different & clearly audible. It is very interesting if I change cable to AQ after some time music stops for a second, wondering is NDS is changing clock that time? So, Simon studying this transfer speed is very interesting.

Mike, that had me laughing so much I was actually in tears! 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted: - I guess its not network theory I am looking at but empirical observation of what is happening on the wires - yes the effects are subjective and the exact causes and manner of the perturbations is theoretical - as I feel I cant prove with out a suitable RF spectrum analyzer. But the RF EMI here would be local to the streamer network hardware and streamer power supplies.  Network theory is a whole other matter - and I am not sure how much it would apply to Naim..... but I haven't thought about that too much   

Simon,  I guess you have in mind to include comparing local (NAS) streaming & remote (www) streaming comparisons,  might be surprising (or not)   

Mike - yes. The local streaming from the media server (whether it be NAS or server) and web streaming sessions can look similar from a network flow pattern, but both can change depending on throughput variables.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike  

Huge - I guess its not network theory I am looking at but empirical observation of the pattern of what is being conveyed on the wires - yes the audio effects are subjective and the exact causes and manner of the perturbations is theoretical - as I feel I cant prove with out a suitable RF spectrum analyzer. But the RF EMI here would be local to the streamer network hardware and streamer power supplies.  Network theory is a whole other matter - and I am not sure how much it would apply to Naim..... but I haven't thought about that too much 

Just hope that torch doesn't illuminate too many red herrings....

Simon, you have a real theoretical and practical understanding of what goes on on the wires, and the knowledge of what this could mean for the receive circuitry (and subsequent analogue stages).  The rest of us look at a network trace and think "Uugh", quickly followed by "Runaway and Hide, that's WAY too complicated for me!".

OK I can recognise a few bits of a trace, but most of it is still "Don't know", "Don't know", "Don't know", "Don't know", ... Ok I understand that one, "Don't know", "Don't know", ...

well, i have installed a temporary run of the meicord to the NDS now. it was a bit of a nuisance to be honest as the cable is quite stiff -- and i made sure there were no sharp bends in the cable -- seems to be NACA5 all over again... :-(

For permanent, the blue meicord clipped to the pipe cover with those plastic clips would run under, not over, as you can probably see from other net cables groing into that gap from the left hand corner. the white box is the UPS, now with fresh battery since last week or no...

enroute to my office through a hole in bottom corner of that opening...

into my office, left as you look at the door down to the NDS.

just played a few tracks and it seems all is OK -- to the extent i can tell so soon after the change -- SQ assessments will follow over the next few days. I dont do A/B -- i need this new config to 'wash' over me over the next few days pehaps weeks -- then i will revert and re-assess...

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken  - could I suggest you try with the switch and the other white box off the UPS & located if possible with at least 0.5m horizontal separation away from the UPS and what looks like the modem.  I had 2 switches in a wooden teak cabinet on the top shelf immediately above a UPS, 2x NAS and associated power supplies. I just spent the afternoon (interrupted by a strong mag 5.7 quake!) rearranging things so the 2 switches are now on a separate stand, away from the NAS etc, reason being that the heat from the switches in the confined space was warping the top of my nice Indonesian plantation teak cabinet. A totally unexpected side-effect was a significant improvement in SQ to the extent that it sounds like a major system upgrade. It has really opened the sound up with more air and much better sound stage, I really can't believe how good it is. I think this illustrates how much potential interaction there can be with stacking components like this.

Mike in commercial equipment screening is important. I have a plastic cased Cisco 870 series router. When you take the lid off to put extra memory in, you find an internal metal Faraday cage that you need to un clip to gain access to the componentry. I have other metal cased Cisco switches for example that have full or partial metal screening around the internal powersupplies to reduce, I assume, noise emissions to the circuitry. 

I have not seen this sort of screening or attention to detail on the consumer network equipment I have owned.. I can only assume this is the case for cost reasons.

PS for home duplex 10/100 Mbps networks I wouldn't use obsolete Cat 5 I would always use Cat 5e which is designed for the job.

Simon

Mike ok, unless it's a very old patch cable I'd be suprised if it wasn't  a 5e from BT.

BT along with others have developed or contributed to many  of the standards here so they tend to get these things right. 

Simon

johnG posted:

Hi Ken  - could I suggest you try with the switch and the other white box off the UPS & located if possible with at least 0.5m horizontal separation away from the UPS and what looks like the modem.  I had 2 switches in a wooden teak cabinet on the top shelf immediately above a UPS, 2x NAS and associated power supplies. I just spent the afternoon (interrupted by a strong mag 5.7 quake!) rearranging things so the 2 switches are now on a separate stand, away from the NAS etc, reason being that the heat from the switches in the confined space was warping the top of my nice Indonesian plantation teak cabinet. A totally unexpected side-effect was a significant improvement in SQ to the extent that it sounds like a major system upgrade. It has really opened the sound up with more air and much better sound stage, I really can't believe how good it is. I think this illustrates how much potential interaction there can be with stacking components like this.

Thanks JohnG.

sorry i didnt say what box is what.

The big white one is the APC RS800 UPS. On top of that on the right is the GS108 switch and the little white box is the Airport-Express.

The virgin modem is in the corner to the left of the double mains socket.

One shelf down are - white box - NAS drive for all my PCs on the network -- for data, not music. This is net-plugged into the router which is to the right of the NAS drive.

The black box behind the data  NAS is the music backup -- connected via USB to the music Netgear ReadyNas Duo below the data NAS.

The ReadyNAS is net connected to the switch via the Meicord -- and as of late last night -- there is now a meicord also from switch to NDS. Bog std ethernet cable still on UnitiServeSSD and other components attached to my network.

If a special ethernet cable could improve my coding productivity -- i would also consider installing meicord to my PC 

Now, if you could explain again what you have in mind -- then i can see if its possible -- its a tight squeeze for space when the net equipment is right now in our conservatory.

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

 

Ken,   when you do write up the report can you remind us again what & where the other cables go to/from.    

 

Cheers ............  

Hi Mike-B, hope my answer to JohnG helps? all audio stuff is connected to the switch, which is atop the UPS. My unitiserveSSD is NOT on the main Fraim racks at all -- it sitting belong my printer shelf on the opposite side where the Fraim stacks are.

enjoy

ken

Mike-B posted:

Thanks for the info Simon,  its confirms my thinking that screening is something to consider.

My switch is an all metal Netgear Prosafe & its case - although not grounded - is capacitively connected to the PCB & DC 0v so there is obviously something in this that needs such attention. 

(My buddies old Cat5 BTW was something he installed - was a BT hub freebee methinks)  

Screening yes, or at least proper separation between noisy devices. I have my LAN gear tucked away in a cupboard and use an old Quadrasire stand with double height shelf legs to house them. Each of the following has a separate shelf on the Quadraspire from top to bottom: TP Unitiserve linear power supply, Unitiserve HHD, BT Home Hub 5 Router, Netgear Prosafe switch powered by the iFi iPower low noise SMPS. I also have a sprinkling of ferrite cores at various points on SMPS power cords and ethernet cables and paid attention to ethernet cable dressing behind the Quadraspire stand.

I have not done any A/B testing with these measures (other than trying out different ethernet cables and the introduction of the iPower), quite frankly life is too short. But it doesn't take long to install these precautionary measures and, as my system is sounding wonderful, I believe it is time well spent.

I would be interested to hear any other LAN tinkering that appears to enhance SQ by presumably reducing noise.

the idea of Farady cage is most interesting to me -- and i raised this issue somewhere in this thread. i would have thought this design would be quite common in this field but i guess cost comes into it as you say Simon. other than Cisco, who else is using such cages to protect senstive parts?

what sonic differences did the Faraday cage endowed router/switch bring to your system Simon?

enjoy

ken

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike ok, unless it's a very old patch cable I'd be suprised if it wasn't  a 5e from BT.

ken c posted:  

Hi Mike-B, hope my answer to JohnG helps?

100%  ...............  now all we have to do is wait for your report  ...........  

nigelb posted:    .............   quite frankly life is too short. .............  I would be interested to hear any other LAN tinkering that appears to enhance SQ by presumably reducing noise.

Mike-B posted:

nigelb posted:    .............   quite frankly life is too short. .............  I would be interested to hear any other LAN tinkering that appears to enhance SQ by presumably reducing noise.

Tend to agree about the life bit .......  I'm at a point were I don't think there is much else to do,  & it looks like its the same with yours.

I'm seriously overloaded with ferrite on 240v, DC & ethernets & all my mains power cables are screened & I know its effective as they do not cause my pro level cable finder to react at all.  

The iPower SMPS to the Netgear switch get its power via the UPS & its isolation transformer.

The switch is a metal cased ProSafe & although in the same cabinet as the UPS & NAS is on a shelf about 10cm (4 inches) above.  

Mike, can you tell me a bit more about screened mains power cables. Did you make these yourself with screened 3 core mains cable (and if so what is the spec.) or can you buy them off the shelf (if so make/model)? Lastly on which devices do you use the screened mains power cables. Assuming these don't relate to Naim products, there should be no issue with discussing them on here.

Sorry to be a pain with more questions but I am not familiar with screened mains power cables and their benefits.

ken c posted:

johnG posted:

Hi Ken  - could I suggest you try with the switch and the other white box off the UPS & located if possible with at least 0.5m horizontal separation away from the UPS and what looks like the modem.  I had 2 switches in a wooden teak cabinet on the top shelf immediately above a UPS, 2x NAS and associated power supplies. I just spent the afternoon (interrupted by a strong mag 5.7 quake!) rearranging things so the 2 switches are now on a separate stand, away from the NAS etc, reason being that the heat from the switches in the confined space was warping the top of my nice Indonesian plantation teak cabinet. A totally unexpected side-effect was a significant improvement in SQ to the extent that it sounds like a major system upgrade. It has really opened the sound up with more air and much better sound stage, I really can't believe how good it is. I think this illustrates how much potential interaction there can be with stacking components like this.

Thanks JohnG.

sorry i didnt say what box is what.

The big white one is the APC RS800 UPS. On top of that on the right is the GS108 switch and the little white box is the Airport-Express.

The virgin modem is in the corner to the left of the double mains socket.

One shelf down are - white box - NAS drive for all my PCs on the network -- for data, not music. This is net-plugged into the router which is to the right of the NAS drive.

The black box behind the data  NAS is the music backup -- connected via USB to the music Netgear ReadyNas Duo below the data NAS.

The ReadyNAS is net connected to the switch via the Meicord -- and as of late last night -- there is now a meicord also from switch to NDS. Bog std ethernet cable still on UnitiServeSSD and other components attached to my network.

If a special ethernet cable could improve my coding productivity -- i would also consider installing meicord to my PC 

Now, if you could explain again what you have in mind -- then i can see if its possible -- its a tight squeeze for space when the net equipment is right now in our conservatory.

enjoy

ken

Ken, the Meicord cable offers the highest possible fidelity, ensuring all your bugs are accurately recorded at time of creation with zero jitter.

nigelb posted:    

Mike, can you tell me a bit more about screened mains power cables. Did you make these yourself with screened 3 core mains cable (and if so what is the spec.) or can you buy them off the shelf (if so make/model)? Lastly on which devices do you use the screened mains power cables. Assuming these don't relate to Naim products, there should be no issue with discussing them on here.

Sorry to be a pain with more questions but I am not familiar with screened mains power cables and their benefits.

Mike-B posted:

nigelb posted:    

Mike, can you tell me a bit more about screened mains power cables. Did you make these yourself with screened 3 core mains cable (and if so what is the spec.) or can you buy them off the shelf (if so make/model)? Lastly on which devices do you use the screened mains power cables. Assuming these don't relate to Naim products, there should be no issue with discussing them on here.

Sorry to be a pain with more questions but I am not familiar with screened mains power cables and their benefits.

No pain at all,  its a pleasure & its what this forum is all about IMO  ...........

See my profile,  its  Supra LoRad,  its what I use to power all my equipment - wall to dist pad & to each Naim & all other black box's.

Its different to normal screened/shielded cable which has its screen/shield connected to mains earth at the power "in" end.     Supra LoRad has an alloy foil wrap around a 3 core LN&E that has a very tight twist rate, a lot tighter than yer average - this is good for noise rejection alone.  The screen is not actually connected to anything,  BUT,  the Supra earth wire has a semi conductive insulation that connects with the screen & takes away EMI & RFI into & out of the cable.    What impresses me is that my cable sniffer just doesn't see it.    

Thanks very much Mike. Interesting!