Melco - a second opinion

GregW posted:

Allan Probin posted:

I started reading this thread and thought this looks interesting, I wonder how it would compare with my Mac-Mini into Chord 2Qute. Then I remembered I'm using a bit of room correction in Audirvana, which for me makes a considerable improvement. So not going to work for me whilst my hifi inhabits this problematic room unfortunately.

Having recently kicked the tires on Aurender's N100H I feel the improvement it brings to my modest setup is greater than the improvement room correction (Dirac Live), provides. I'm also using a Mac Mini with Audirvana.

As others have said computers provide a lot of flexibility, but the dedicated, audio optimised approach from companies like Antipodes, Aurender and Melco are simply better sonically.

I'm only left nervous about the range of streaming services supported both today and in the future. As a Deezer Elite user, I'm left rather underwhelmed when I use Tidal, which is unfortunate because it's pretty much the default choice on many of these devices. I hope the Deezer Elite Sonos exclusive ends soon!

Intersting to read that the Aurender makes a difference to SQ when feeding a V1

I'm very keen on a demo of the Melco and been watching afar for a long while now, initially their site was fairly functional.

In the opinion of those who have used the Melco recently what is it actually doing that is creating the cleaner playback?

Jitter removal, inky black playback, storage onboard that checksums files onto it is just a byte check verification of the original copy not a performance enhancer as such, what would be a short list of - this is what is does differently hence why it performs so well? Really curious to what it is doing technically (looking online also)

or is it one of this classic pieces of kit where we don't really know why but appreciate the playback is so much better so why look too deeply? Again just curious, cheers.

My hifi dealer confirmed, that the "upper end" customers moving to DAC + mac/pc or DAC + usb appliance (aurender, aries auralic etc.). We agreed that classical pre-amps will have a hard future because DACs w/ volume control ramping up, next big thing is A/D to digitalize the anlog source (entotem audio was mentioned here and PS audio adc)....

Dan43 posted:

I'm very keen on a demo of the Melco and been watching afar for a long while now, initially their site was fairly functional.

In the opinion of those who have used the Melco recently what is it actually doing that is creating the cleaner playback?

Jitter removal, inky black playback, storage onboard that checksums files onto it is just a byte check verification of the original copy not a performance enhancer as such, what would be a short list of - this is what is does differently hence why it performs so well? Really curious to what it is doing technically (looking online also)

or is it one of this classic pieces of kit where we don't really know why but appreciate the playback is so much better so why look too deeply? Again just curious, cheers.

Dan -

As a radicalised "BIts Are Bits" fundamentalist, I'd advise you don't inspect the Emperor's clothes too closely, lest they disappear.

Noogle

I always assumed the Emperor was a naturist...

Noogle posted:

Dan43 posted:

I'm very keen on a demo of the Melco and been watching afar for a long while now, initially their site was fairly functional.

In the opinion of those who have used the Melco recently what is it actually doing that is creating the cleaner playback?

Jitter removal, inky black playback, storage onboard that checksums files onto it is just a byte check verification of the original copy not a performance enhancer as such, what would be a short list of - this is what is does differently hence why it performs so well? Really curious to what it is doing technically (looking online also)

or is it one of this classic pieces of kit where we don't really know why but appreciate the playback is so much better so why look too deeply? Again just curious, cheers.

Dan -

As a radicalised "BIts Are Bits" fundamentalist, I'd advise you don't inspect the Emperor's clothes too closely, lest they disappear.

Noogle

and I would say its better to have a good look and know than to assume without looking

Some links to reviews for those interested, the HiFi Choice one they chat to Alan Ainslie, General Manager, Melco Audiophile NAS Project : (all links from PDFs on Futureshop site).

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/do...ifiChoice397_N1A.pdf

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/download/theEar_N1A.pdf

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/do...d_N1A_March_2015.pdf

Plus list below of tech info :

Light pipe isolated Gigabit Ethernet ports to eliminate interference. Illumination can be disabled

Specialised high performance TDK pulse transformers for precise network communcation

Ultra-low jitter system clock for outstanding audio quality

60w low noise power supply. Designed to be proof against unexpected power-down

Specialised low noise audio HDD on antivibration mounts

Japanese TAOC brand graded cast-iron with Oak wood isolation feet

Multiple low noise power regualtors for long term stability

If you read the full "USP" presentation (which I had the chance to do) you realise it's a different beast, far away from a "upgraded pc"....

Its "all the way" in so many areas compared to normal NAS

//Jonas

Dan43 posted:

I'm very keen on a demo of the Melco and been watching afar for a long while now, initially their site was fairly functional.

In the opinion of those who have used the Melco recently what is it actually doing that is creating the cleaner playback?

Jitter removal, inky black playback, storage onboard that checksums files onto it is just a byte check verification of the original copy not a performance enhancer as such, what would be a short list of - this is what is does differently hence why it performs so well? Really curious to what it is doing technically (looking online also)

or is it one of this classic pieces of kit where we don't really know why but appreciate the playback is so much better so why look too deeply? Again just curious, cheers.

Dan, just in case it has confused from elsewhere, on the ethernet using TCP (UPnP) there is no such thing as jitter - its a meaningless concept. With isochronous asynchronous audio USB there is flow variation in terms of the data frames that  are sped up or slowed down by by the sender in response to the receiver, but jitter as we understand in sampled audio is also absent and meaningless.

The key thing the Melco filter is doing is far as I can see is removing extraneous  EMI from the transport bearers ... like a kind of digital noise filter.  Certainly if you use cheap consumer network equipment or USB filtering i can see the Melco being a good mitigator of electrical noise.

Simon

Dan43 posted:

Some links to reviews for those interested, the HiFi Choice one they chat to Alan Ainslie, General Manager, Melco Audiophile NAS Project : (all links from PDFs on Futureshop site).

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/do...ifiChoice397_N1A.pdf

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/download/theEar_N1A.pdf

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/do...d_N1A_March_2015.pdf

Plus list below of tech info :

Light pipe isolated Gigabit Ethernet ports to eliminate interference. Illumination can be disabled

Specialised high performance TDK pulse transformers for precise network communcation

Ultra-low jitter system clock for outstanding audio quality

60w low noise power supply. Designed to be proof against unexpected power-down

Specialised low noise audio HDD on antivibration mounts

Japanese TAOC brand graded cast-iron with Oak wood isolation feet

Multiple low noise power regualtors for long term stability

A good sum up of the benefits, and it's clearly audible what happens...

@JUDE2012. Sometime sonic differences are quite subtle, even to point of being more about a personal preference for one presentation over another. In the case of my 2011 dedicated and audio optimised Mac Mini it's a very clear difference. 

Dan43 posted:

In the opinion of those who have used the Melco recently what is it actually doing that is creating the cleaner playback?.

I think it's three things: less noise; better timing; and dedicated audio optimised software.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

USB in my opinion is simply not an optimum interface by design for low noise.. probably why devices like Melco come into their own.

That's probably why most of the professional audio gear I have is FireWire. Alas, that ship has sailed. 

Well at the End of the day it's like a great transport or turntable, hooked to a DAC or used with a great tone arm and pick up, letting them do their job. 

Love the black inc effect

//Jonas

GregW posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

USB in my opinion is simply not an optimum interface by design for low noise.. probably why devices like Melco come into their own.

That's probably why most of the professional audio gear I have is FireWire. Alas, that ship has sailed. 

I wouldn't say Firewire is particularly low noise when compared to USB Greg. My old Weiss DACs (which used Firewire) were still sensitive to noise carried over from the host Mac. 

James

Bert Schurink posted:

Dan43 posted:

Some links to reviews for those interested, the HiFi Choice one they chat to Alan Ainslie, General Manager, Melco Audiophile NAS Project : (all links from PDFs on Futureshop site).

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/do...ifiChoice397_N1A.pdf

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/download/theEar_N1A.pdf

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/do...d_N1A_March_2015.pdf

Plus list below of tech info :

Light pipe isolated Gigabit Ethernet ports to eliminate interference. Illumination can be disabled

Specialised high performance TDK pulse transformers for precise network communcation

Ultra-low jitter system clock for outstanding audio quality

60w low noise power supply. Designed to be proof against unexpected power-down

Specialised low noise audio HDD on antivibration mounts

Japanese TAOC brand graded cast-iron with Oak wood isolation feet

Multiple low noise power regualtors for long term stability

A good sum up of the benefits, and it's clearly audible what happens...

It's very easy to get hung up on the specs (although Melco don't help here with vague descriptions like the light pipe isolated ports) but these don't really give the full story. I think it's just the optimisation of the design of the unit in the first place for its intended task that seems to make it so effective. I certainly didn't expect such an increase in performance over my Mac. One other non audio benefit is functionality to dim the power LED so i get a soft blue glow rather than a piercing blue distraction from the corner of the room 

GregW posted:

@JUDE2012. Sometime sonic differences are quite subtle, even to point of being more about a personal preference for one presentation over another. In the case of my 2011 dedicated and audio optimised Mac Mini it's a very clear difference. 

Don't fully get your post. Anyway, I may give it a try.

 

Plus list below of tech info :

Light pipe isolated Gigabit Ethernet ports to eliminate interference. Illumination can be disabled

Specialised high performance TDK pulse transformers for precise network communcation

Ultra-low jitter system clock for outstanding audio quality

60w low noise power supply. Designed to be proof against unexpected power-down

Specialised low noise audio HDD on antivibration mounts

Japanese TAOC brand graded cast-iron with Oak wood isolation feet

Multiple low noise power regualtors for long term stability

A good sum up of the benefits, and it's clearly audible what happens...

It's very easy to get hung up on the specs (although Melco don't help here with vague descriptions like the light pipe isolated ports) but these don't really give the full story. I think it's just the optimisation of the design of the unit in the first place for its intended task that seems to make it so effective. I certainly didn't expect such an increase in performance over my Mac. One other non audio benefit is functionality to dim the power LED so i get a soft blue glow rather than a piercing blue distraction from the corner of the room 

James you are right, I am just, for some reason, very curious to how this piece of equipment works. Other kit not so, I am not too worried how my speakers are built just the sound they produce, but this Melco N1A has got my curiosity radar on full.

I guess how can a NAS (Synology with 2TB single SSD drive running Minimserver) for under £500.00 be less capable than a £1750.00 dedicated HiFi built server system?

So I have been digging but driven more by natural curiosity than some deeper sense of breaking their tech apart. Not at all, probably will get one, but WHAT is it really doing for the price :-)

On UPnP media serving, if you want to see the differences from different media servers, use Wireshark or similar.. certainly you can see different ways that the TCP transfer is conducted (there are two main different techniques I have seen from different software/operating systems) and they do sound ever so slightly different in the MDP or renderer. Naim seems quite happy with both - albeit it can sound ever so slightly different - perhaps from cross talk from the streamer board.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Dan43 posted:

I'm very keen on a demo of the Melco and been watching afar for a long while now, initially their site was fairly functional.

In the opinion of those who have used the Melco recently what is it actually doing that is creating the cleaner playback?

Jitter removal, inky black playback, storage onboard that checksums files onto it is just a byte check verification of the original copy not a performance enhancer as such, what would be a short list of - this is what is does differently hence why it performs so well? Really curious to what it is doing technically (looking online also)

or is it one of this classic pieces of kit where we don't really know why but appreciate the playback is so much better so why look too deeply? Again just curious, cheers.

Dan, just in case it has confused from elsewhere, on the ethernet using TCP (UPnP) there is no such thing as jitter - its a meaningless concept. With isochronous asynchronous audio USB there is flow variation in terms of the data frames that  are sped up or slowed down by by the sender in response to the receiver, but jitter as we understand in sampled audio is also absent and meaningless.

 

The key thing the Melco filter is doing is far as I can see is removing extraneous  EMI from the transport bearers ... like a kind of digital noise filter.  Certainly if you use cheap consumer network equipment or USB filtering i can see the Melco being a good mitigator of electrical noise.

 

Simon

Simon forgot to say thanks for this information. Yes what you describe makes perfect sense, digging a little more on what you mention to self tutor my knowledge a little further, thanks again.

Just wondering whether folks using a device such as the Melco or Aurender have them connected to the same main circuit as the Naim boxes or not (for those that have dedicated mains for audio).

Jude

1. Jude2012 posted:

   Just wondering whether folks using a device such as the Melco or Aurender have them connected to the same main circuit as the Naim boxes or not (for those that have dedicated mains for audio).

   Jude

   I'm using a Naim / musicline Powerigel to connect everything to it.... NAP, DAC,Aurender etc...

Short update: decided to try a cheaper Ethernet cable between NDS and Melco, been using Chord Sarum Ethernet cables for some time and to these ears the Sarum cables where a lot better then Audioquests offering at that time. 

Well, not this time. Couldn't hear any difference at all now. Quite strange. Obviously Melco sort some stuff out...

Will do some more tests. 

//Jonas

Interesting. 

Just a couple of points about the Melco:

I understand that the SSD drives in the N1Z cost around $1k each to make.  If this is true then it obviously goes a long way to explain why that model is so much more expensive than the N1A.

The Ethernet ports are not optically isolated. They use TDK ALT series pulse transformers.

There is a long thread about the Melco on the MinimServer forum from about a year ago which is very helpful/ interesting.