NAC282 vs NAC252 - Which is Best? Only One Way to Find Out. Fight!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Well it must be how you hear things, to me the emotion, sheer musicality and vibrancy of the 252 makes the 282 sound like a like a slightly rude guest who has had a little too much to drink at a dinner party by comparison.. the two really are  so different... But yes my 252 DR was a very recent model... The 552DR brings me more insight but to my ears and brain not really more musical enjoyment... It really demonstrates the importance of auditioning...

However all of these preamps are very capable, and I suspect tuned differently for different tastes and differences on how we listen and enjoy music... and for me (and perhaps fortvuately) the 552DR  just doesn't bring much else in musical enjoyment over the 252DR (with various power amps )..but it does give me added insight...

if you really want a 552DR they can be found used at a significant discount..and if you are in the market for a new 252DR then a used 552DR is not that different... 

Does that mean if you put on any Amy Winehouse through a 252 it won't sound as good as through a 282 ?

analogmusic posted:

I value AMA's experience, found that 282 was exactly as he described, massive soundstage, imageing, PRAT, musicality. I often think about 252, but if it is only marginal improvement, and need to buy SCDR and also 252, then that is lots of money for not night and day improvement. I think AMA also once said the 282 and 252 could easily be an audiophile's final preamp.

As a combo, the 282HCDR/250DR is one hugely musical amplifier, I don't find myself wishing for anymore more now especially after 250 DR. (and that is after hearing 552/500 many many times now)

Anyway to each their own, if in isololation the 282 is a fantastic preamp, then for me at least (and my wallet), ignorance is bliss.

I would never pay full prices for preamps after 282 level anyway (I do understand this is not ideal for dealers), I bought mine used at 50 % off retail price and already had a HCDR.

for me the issue of a 252 is that a SCDR is needed, and then a 300DR.

I somehow think this amount of cash is better spend on a source, and then on a 552. Or maybe 552 then source.

the 252 appears to be too expensive to me, sitting between the accomplished 282 and the superb 552 

Also any issues with 282 being harsh are more source/speaker issues to me, since I moved to Chord Hugo and Dynaudio, my Naim setup sounds very sweet to me.

 

NigelB you also mention this " Indeed I very occasionally miss the vitality and sheer exuberance the 282 exhibits. It is just that the 282 is a bit like puppy, full of life but occasionally can get out of hand and needs to be controlled."

For me this is a positive feauture of the 282, as I love the drive and groove this preamp has, and it is all about the music rather than a smaller degree of being smoother for me at least, but thanks for the excellent write-up !

 

I have explained how, moving from 282 to 252, might be 'expensive' for some, particularly if you need to acquire a SupercapDR. For me however the costs are far less as I already have the SupercarDR and the chance of a secondhand 252 with a sensible allowance offered for my 282.

Yes, I do value the vitality and exuberance of the 282 but it can tip over into a degree of hardness that just doesn't happen with the 252. I have described the 252 as smooth but this might be a misleading term. By smooth I do not mean dull. The 252 can and does kick butt when the music demands it. I listened to 'Drum & Bass Intro' on the Nils Lofgren Band Live album which is impressive on the 282. But on the 252 it was like being smacked around the head (in a good way) by a drum kit and bass guitar. Those two instruments just sound more real with greater texture, depth and slam to them. So 'dull', certainly not. More realistic, yes. Having said this the 252 is more mellifluous and silky than the 282. Instruments sound more real with more tone and timbre than with the 282.

The differences are not night and day but they are clear and in the areas of music reproduction that I value. I guess we are reaching the realms of diminishing returns but I have such a good deal on offer that gives me more of what I value, and in that sense it is a bit of a no-brainer.

When you get to these levels in the Naim hierarchy, it is possible for many (most?) to settle. The superiority of the next black box up only becomes apparent with a direct comparison. So as the old addage goes, if you can't afford it, don't listen to it.

glad you like it Nigel, as long at it floats your boat musically.

Again, thanks for a nice write up. 

The thing about Naim systems is that they all sound fantastic to me (from the Unitiqute upwards)

I recently heard a 552/500, then a top Linn KDS/KK/350A active set up (top of the line) and then a UQ2 with modest speakers, and you know what, the UQ still sounded very engaging and musical to me.

It isn't about affordability to me, just whether the kit is engaging, or not, whatever the budget.

Watching this closely. I have the same speakers as you, I don't think many people use them.

How do you find them with the super lumina? 

Who is 'you'? If only people would put their system details in the profiles, it would be much easier sometimes. 

Sorry op with gx300's 

I guess Pawson6844 is referring to me as I have unusual speakers (MA GX300) with the SL speaker cables, both of which I mention in the opening post.

When I tested the SL speaker cables with my GX 300s I had just upgraded to the NAP250DR from 250.2. The improvement from the NACA5s was significant and I remember the SLs removing some thickening/congestion that I didn't even realise was there with the A5s.

The MA GX300s have clearly revealed all my Naim upgrades over the last few years, including the uplift in SQ I am hearing going from 282 to 252. When the MAs will become the significant weak link I cannot be sure, they may possibly be holding things back now. I can only determine this by demoing alternative speakers at home. But for the time being I am very satisfied with them. These relatively large speakers are designed to work well in smaller rooms where I currently use them so will need to think carefully before I upgrade them.

Seriously underrated speakers though IMHO that work really well with Naim gear.

HH - I am a naughty boy and will update my profile. Thanks for the reminder.

nigelb posted:

I guess Pawson6844 is referring to me as I have unusual speakers (MA GX300) with the SL speaker cables, both of which I mention in the opening post.

When I tested the SL speaker cables with my GX 300s I had just upgraded to the NAP250DR from 250.2. The improvement from the NACA5s was significant and I remember the SLs removing some thickening/congestion that I didn't even realise was there with the A5s.

The MA GX300s have clearly revealed all my Naim upgrades over the last few years, including the uplift in SQ I am hearing going from 282 to 252. When the MAs will become the significant weak link I cannot be sure, they may possibly be holding things back now. I can only determine this by demoing alternative speakers at home. But for the time being I am very satisfied with them. These relatively large speakers are designed to work well in smaller rooms where I currently use them so will need to think carefully before I upgrade them.

Seriously underrated speakers though IMHO that work really well with Naim gear.

HH - I am a naughty boy and will update my profile. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks, yes I love mine, seem to work best with a little toe in. I have just upgraded to the 250dr also. Looking to go 282 this year so at least I know I've got more to come from them. I think the super lumina is a way off though. 

The 282 and 250DR are a smashing combo and work really well with the MA GX300s. The SL speaker cables also have great synergy with the new DR power amps IMHO. So you have even more to come if and when you get there.

By the way I have my GX300s in an equilateral triangle with the listening position toed in to face the listener straight on about 2 feet from side and rear walls. Having said that I have found them rather unfussy about positioning. I also have now put the port bungs in as my listening room is a little on the small side. But I digress.

Enjoy the ride!

TOBYJUG posted:

Does that mean if you put on any Amy Winehouse through a 252 it won't sound as good as through a 282 ?

 Very good.. Amy Winehouse and her albums sound superb through the 252 - they were good on the 282 as well - but the 252 get me closer to the emotion - and with Amy that is such a key part of her music - and was not her drunken drug induced latter day demeanour her cry for help rather than gratuitous drunken vulgarity?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Does that mean if you put on any Amy Winehouse through a 252 it won't sound as good as through a 282 ?

 Very good.. Amy Winehouse and her albums sound superb through the 252 - they were good on the 282 as well - but the 252 get me closer to the emotion - and with Amy that is such a key part of her music - and was not her drunken drug induced latter day demeanour her cry for help rather than gratuitous drunken vulgarity?

Ah, what a generously-spirited fellow you are, Simon.  

Amy Winehouse would sound good on apple stock in ear phones in a howling gale. Love Is A Losing Game, what a magnificent song.

I'm listening to Noir Désir through my 252. It rocks. I'm with Simon and others on the 252 and wouldn't go back to 282. But I got a great deal on mine and had it serviced. If anyone can point me in the direction of a 552 for less than 5 figures, I might resurrect some lost dreams...

So the final round is over, the judges scores are in - so which pre-amp won? Well I can tell you now it went the full distance and there were certainly no knock out blows. Both the 282 and the 252 are fine pieces of equipment but are rather different in how they go about presenting music. You can see from my OP a direct A/B comparison on 16 of my favourite tracks but the rest of this post are my impressions gathered over the subsequent week when I only listened to the 252.

I wanted to see if I could live with the 252 long term as I had got so accustomed to the way the 282 goes about its business so I concentrated on listening to the 252 for a few days. Earlier I described the 282 as exuberant and the 252 as smooth, but agian I would like to stress this does not mean dull as others have described it. The main point of difference for me was the added composure the 252 brought when the going got tough in the mix, when sometimes the 282 would harden up a little as it tried to control things. What I noticed about the 252 is that I would feel far more relaxed during challenging pieces of music, whereas, although superficially more exiting, the 282 would occasionally go over the edge and it could turn a little uncomfortable for want of a better word. This was never extreme with the 282 and often its exuberance was exciting. But I gradually grew to appreciate the subtle and controlled presentation of the 252.

Now some of you will be thinking, 'subtle', 'controlled', 'smooth' - how boring! The 252 is neither boring nor dull. When called upon it will knock your socks off with say incisive percussion, powerful drums, hugely impressive vocals when a signer is belting it out, added timbre and texture to instruments. There was more clarity and sublety across the frequency spectrum from beautifully defined plucked double bass to precise portrayal of delicate cymbals previously unnoticed on several tracks. But I am starting to pick things apart here. The 252 produces an entirely cohesive presentation of instruments and vocals that just hangs together and often makes more sense of the music and the emotions that are being conveyed by a particular group of musicians and/or vocalist. I am not going to use the word musicality because I believe many of us are unsure of what it means despite (or as evidenced by) the recent debate on here. OK I have used the word and according to my dictionary the 252 displays 'musicality'.

It does however take some time to tune yourself in to the subtle charms of the 252. I previously likened the 282 to an excitable puppy, keen to make friends but occasionally getting out of control and needing a little discipline to be instilled. Well the the 252 will never soil the carpet and will never chew your slippers. It will however reward you with wonderful music-making if you are prepared to get to know it. I can understand the attraction of the 282 and also see how some have decided to stick with the 282 even after a comparison with the 252. Indeed I have lived with a 282 for a few years and have been delighted with it.

The differences are not night and day but there are noticeable improvements in the way music is presented and in areas I value. The 282 is an exciting listen and may suit other systems better. For me however the 252 with a NDS and a 250DR was a jump in sophistication, resolution and subtly. There I go, describing the 252 as grown up, I get it now. I should also mention of course that what I am hearing is not just a pre-amp but an entire system and I should not underestimate the part the NDS, 250DR and SL/Chord Sarum Tuned Aray cables are playing.

So to cut this rather long story short, I am now the proud owner of a 252 and my dealer has my beloved 282 waiting to go to a new home where I am sure it will give its next owner as much pleasure it has given me. Well my pre-amp has just grown up. I just need to fully acclimatise to the new found maturity and get used to playing with the older kids.

Thank you Nigel for a great write up of a lovely tale.  Enjoy.

Best regards, FT

Thanks FT. I remember you from the Sopra/250DR/300DR demo at that new dealer near Harlow. I very much enjoyed the day.

Hope you are well and maybe we'll meet up at another demo one day. Geez that makes us sound like anarchists!

Cheers

Nigel

nigelb posted:

... The main point of difference for me was the added composure the 252 brought when the going got tough in the mix ... 

... subtle and controlled presentation...

... When called upon it will knock your socks off with say incisive percussion, powerful drums, hugely impressive vocals...

... more clarity and subtlety across the frequency spectrum...

... an entirely cohesive presentation of instruments and vocals that just hangs together and often makes more sense of the music and the emotions...

... It does however take some time to tune yourself in to the subtle charms of the 252...

Fine words that neatly sum up the 252's strengths. A true endgame preamp.

It also excels at low-level listening, a mode that I find increasingly useful.

Well done Nigel. You may also wish to consider an audio writing sideline...

Jan

Thank you Jan.

Yes, I must admit I haven't fully explored the low level listening abilities of the 252 but I am sure its added subtlety will certainly preserve detail and communication at lower levels. I often find these aspects disappear when you turn the wick down.

I have also noticed benefits at the opposite end of the scale. That is the 252 doesn't tend to harden up (quite so much as the 282 can) when you turn the volume up. So it seems that the 252 has abilities at both ends of the volume range. Interesting!

Congratulations and thank you for the assessment. Some of it sounded familiar.

Thank you Nigel for the the review. Thoroughly enjoyed your writing!

The low-level listening test is one of my favourite routines when putting a component through its paces. That, plus seeing how well the device maintains composure on complex music at high volumes, will tell you a lot about its strengths.

Perhaps it is age (61 in a few days) or oversensitivity to disagreeable sounds, but exploring low level listening (when the system does it well) can be highly rewarding. We dance less now but are still moved by the music.

Jan

Ok, here we go again, but please just try to understand the logic, it makes sence to me!

And this quote is coming off the internet, Richard and the Forum deemed it as a garbage statement, so I of course I accepted it as an garbage statement. 

And mind you, I own a 282! 

""Naim NAC282 The Naim NAC282 is poor value, but still popular, this is largely a NAC202 with the ability to add a second HiCap. Not much else is different in real terms except some marginal improvements in earthing arrangements. Optimum configuration is two HiCaps and a NAPSC. From £1500 second hand.

Naim NAC252 As far as comparisons go with the NAC252 and NAC52 they ought to be similar, but they sound quite different. It's a long way off a NAC552 and not a massive improvement over a NAC282. Again, the ability to power this unit from a SuperCap is the secret, giving it far more individual supply rails raises the performance of an other similar design. Optimal configuration is with a SuperCap PSU. From £2,000 second hand.

Naim NAC552 Naim's outstanding product of the moment.""

552, Well Naims best PS is powering the 552, Hence the best Pre Amp when the garbage statement was transformed. 

252, Once again Powered by the Naims second best power supply SC

282, with two Hi caps improvement over the 202, and with a SC, we have the fight

202, similar to the 282

Hence, I asked Richard was the difference between the 202 & 282, as far as the guts!

""SN2 Vs NAC 200 + NAR 250 ( non DR )

 RICHARD DANEADMINISTRATOR
1/19/163:47 PM
The difference between a NAC202 and NAC282?  Well, apart from looking quite different inside and out, there's a simple answer Allante - just listen.""

I jumped in with a 282, to for-go this upgrade game, and I'm happy with it.

Never heard a 252, or 552, less known a 202, did hear the Statement, Hell of an Amp! 

a Burst of 9K watts into 1 ohm. 

What I would like to know just for sake of argument, what does the 202 and 282 share, what does the 282 and 252 share, and for that matter, what does the 552 share. besides the ability to accept an upgraded PS, which is a big deal, just saying! 

The ArmChair QB!!!!

As I don't understand your question(s), I am afraid I have no answer.

1st the garbage statement clearly states the 552 is supreme, I simply added to the garbage statement by acknowledging, it is powered by Naim's best PS. 

2nd the garbage statement clearly states that the 252 is slightly better than the 282. 

3rd The garbage statement states that the 282 is of poor value, because it is similar to the 202.

But to validate, that the statement is garbage. 

What is the difference between the 202, and the 282?

quite different is vague, what internal parts do they share? 

If they share 70% then similar, if 50% or less not similar. 

Simple Nigel, if two components share the 90% of the internal parts, then they should sound similar.

If two components don't have any internal parts in common they should sound different. 

That's all Nigel B. 

Example:  a regulated 250 should sound better than a non regulated 200, why they don't share the same internal parts. Simple!!!

Sorry English was not my Major!  Math ok, y = mx + b

x raised to the n + 1 divided by n + 1 , etc..

Simple logic, ok! 

Just food for thought! 

The Armchair QB!

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

The low-level listening test is one of my favourite routines when putting a component through its paces. That, plus seeing how well the device maintains composure on complex music at high volumes, will tell you a lot about its strengths.

.... exploring low level listening (when the system does it well) can be highly rewarding.

Jan,

I've just come 'round to this same notion. I find low level listening can be more telling of the true system sound. Louder volume exposes weaknesses; although distinguishing whether these come from the room, the rack, the speakers, or a particular component may be difficult. HP listening is an alternate means to rule out some of the external effects though it introduces its own set of colorations.

Nigel, an enjoyable read, and happy listening.