Are the days of HiCap/Supercap power supplies numbered?

I would think at some point in the future they will rethink their whole power external supply strategy and whether there are better technological solutions. 

I hope you are wrong, I personally wouldn't want a streamer in my preamp.  If I want a streamer I'd prefer to choose which one and I'd rather not be forced to spend money on something I don't want

I doubt it. The SuperCap is an integral part to the  252 like the 552PS ID to to the 552. It provides many decoupled regulated voltage lines required in the Naim higher end preamp architecture and design philosophy , and the PSUs like the XPS and 555PS just aren't functional enough and are designed primarily for sources including the 272 integrated.

when the new cases arrive as they will at some point, I expect the SuperCap, 555PS and HiCap etc will be released in the new cases.

i agree with DayJay, I keep my preamp and digital sources well seperated and decoupled. Also this seperation allows for the timeless quality of the NACs, which can't be really said in my opinion for digital source side..as digital audio technology is moving at quite a pace relatively. The top Naim preamps are the jewel in the Naim crown. I just hope Naim can keep them going for many years to come. They really are first class and totally timeless...

Simon

Mark J posted:

Assuming Naim re-do the preamplifier line up at some stage it seems to me that XPS type supplies are the way to go. Can't see Naim bringing out preamp replacement models without on board streaming capability.

I don't agree. I think a bare NDX/282 sounds better than a 272/XPS - to the point that I'm prepared to turn down a 250 in favour of a 200DR so that it can provide DR power to the 282. This is in the context of my self-imposed limit of 3 full sized boxes. 

ChrisSU posted:

Mark J posted:

Assuming Naim re-do the preamplifier line up at some stage it seems to me that XPS type supplies are the way to go. Can't see Naim bringing out preamp replacement models without on board streaming capability.

I don't agree. I think a bare NDX/282 sounds better than a 272/XPS - to the point that I'm prepared to turn down a 250 in favour of a 200DR so that it can provide DR power to the 282. This is in the context of my self-imposed limit of 3 full sized boxes. 

I have similar views of the V1 and bare 282.

Just wondering whether you have done a comparison of the 250 (DR or non-DR) with a HiCap DR vs. just 200DR? (as this is a route I may go down if the SQ brought about by the lower box count is not signicantly worse/different).

Jude

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

...I keep my preamp and digital sources well seperated and decoupled. Also this seperation allows for the timeless quality of the NACs, which can't be really said in my opinion for digital source side...

Until a little while ago I felt the same on both of these.
However, on the separation part, I don't think that many people care - after all most lived with CD players (both digital and analogue parts) in one box.
On the 2nd part, let me say it like this: the 202 is timeless until the moment you upgrade to the 282, which in turn times out the moment you upgrade to the 252, and so on. I doubt many folks on this board keep the same preamp for too long.

As for the OP, I must say I have recently heard some hair raising amps from the likes of Lavardin, LFD, AudioNote (UK), Ayon. Whether one prefers their sound is a matter of taste, but they prove you can have quality in a smaller number of boxes.

The Snaxos, Superline, Stageline, Headline also need or can use PSUs, so the *Caps are not in immediate danger, I think. 

Yanc, I grew up with digital hash and noise in my 'hifi'. It was a revelation when I discovered I could enjoy music without that digital mush or harshness. It was Cyrus and Naim with their separation philosophies on parts of their portfolios that allowed me to appreciate this. Don't get me wrong there is a time and a place for integrated components and for some people it will be the be all and end all and it was great for me at one time. But for others we have moved from that position to the point perhaps where its about the music and audio and not the kit. Since I got the 252 NAC there has been no urge to change my amplification - its right for me - and no irritating what if moments. Clearly this will be different for others - hence the choice.

But I don't think I get hung up on kit - I am also delighted with my ipad Air/ Tidal Hifi/Little Dot 3 valve headphone amp into my Senny 650 setups for those moments away from my main listening room. That is also divine. Its about what sound and audio experience is right to you and not what is necessarily a fashionable thing to do in my book. I tend to do most of my listening as immersive dedicated listening - and not casual background listening or listening whilst doing other things.

Simon

 Streaming’s had its day. The future is analogue, in the form of vinyl. With the resurgence of vinyl, I’d expect Naim to produce a pre amp with phono capabilities.

 I’d also expect the new pre amps to have numerous on-board DR regs, so hicaps/supercaps will still be required. Just imagine how good six on-board DR regs will sound. Dedicated regs for buffer, gain and phono stages, left and right will sound awesome.

fatcat posted:

 Streaming’s had its day. The future is analogue, in the form of vinyl. With the resurgence of vinyl, I’d expect Naim to produce a pre amp with phono capabilities. 

The streaming's had it's day comment was a little tongue in cheek.

However, the inclusion of a phono stage may be a factor for a lot of people when choosing an amp. The likes of Marantz and Pioneer now provide phono stages, I'd be surprised if Naim don't follow suit.

fatcat posted:

However, the inclusion of a phono stage may be a factor for a lot of people when choosing an amp. The likes of Marantz and Pioneer now provide phono stages, I'd be surprised if Naim don't follow suit.

Not necessarily included, but I'm surprised the 272 and 172 can't power the StageLine.  Same for the SuperUniti.

Not quite a "fail" but it does add to the number of boxes for those who want a smallish "all naim" system.

True volume control and other pre-functions are now quite often part of the Digital domain but by deduction if the pre/SC/HC are redundant so are the NDS and NDX.

Oh Naim are still making these strange objects called compact disc players.

Mark J posted:

I mean will anyone be interested in these in 5 years?

Assuming Naim re-do the preamplifier line up at some stage it seems to me that XPS type supplies are the way to go. Can't see Naim bringing out preamp replacement models without on board streaming capability.

Can you?

I would think so. I have just said in another thread that all these are just too complex - why should signals be routed through the power supply before going into the power amp?

We have NAP200 taking inputs via a 4 pin DIN and the rest of  the NAP taking XLR. (ok yes I know the 4 pin DIN is for powering a preamp). 

The geese of it is the concept of external power supplies for preamps and signaling to power amps should be standardized.

fatcat posted:

The streaming's had it's day comment was a little tongue in cheek.

However, the inclusion of a phono stage may be a factor for a lot of people when choosing an amp. The likes of Marantz and Pioneer now provide phono stages, I'd be surprised if Naim don't follow suit.

At the high end I think there is as much justification for keeping phono stages separate as there is for separate power supplies and separate digital boxes. The extremely low signal levels that phono stages must deal with require as much isolation from higher voltage and sources of inductive noise as is possible for best performance.

Dedicated high-quality linear power supplies seem to be key to the Naim sound. I guess Naim would love to have been able to engineer the Statement amps with space-saving, cost-cutting switched mode power supplies, but that ain't what they got!

Go figure.

John.

Meant to add ............. the EU electricity police will probably outlaw linear supplies (and permanently powered domestic kit) sooner or later. Our Dave at Number Ten never mentions that in his 'Vote In' speeches for some strange reason.

John.

J.N. posted:

Dedicated high-quality linear power supplies seem to be key to the Naim sound. I guess Naim would love to have been able to engineer the Statement amps with space-saving, cost-cutting switched mode power supplies, but that ain't what they got!

Go figure.

John.

True, but look at the work they are doing with the Mu-So series and their automotive work with Bentley. I would imagine a great deal was learned about power supplies etc. Personally, I think the external supply complexity is a competitive disadvantage and is difficult for people not intimately familiar with NAIM to understand. One of my key reservations when I bought my NAC-N 272 was whether it was committing me to another nearly equal expense to get it to perform. In the end I decided that even SANS XPS(DR) that I liked it better than the Akurate DSM and any of the other similarly priced offerings. However if you stack it up, it is a very attractive option as a stand-alone and a much less attractive option when you add the XPS-DR and there is no reason that can't be engineered in the box other than the PS technology is 50 years old. I didn't buy a NAIM phono-stage for the same reason, both the StageLine and Superline are great at their price point but when you factor that you can't use them without a high-cap there are better options on the market factoring in that cost. I really hope they rationalize their offerings as technology progresses as I think the PS situation just leads to a plethora of boxes and complexity that people just don't want. 

I rather suspect that they learned more from the statement than they did from the Muso although perhaps we will see some trickle up power supply technology in due course 

Flatcap XS coupled to my Nait XS2.....happy as Larry and long may it reign.

Jude2012 posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Mark J posted:

Assuming Naim re-do the preamplifier line up at some stage it seems to me that XPS type supplies are the way to go. Can't see Naim bringing out preamp replacement models without on board streaming capability.

I don't agree. I think a bare NDX/282 sounds better than a 272/XPS - to the point that I'm prepared to turn down a 250 in favour of a 200DR so that it can provide DR power to the 282. This is in the context of my self-imposed limit of 3 full sized boxes. 

I have similar views of the V1 and bare 282.

Just wondering whether you have done a comparison of the 250 (DR or non-DR) with a HiCap DR vs. just 200DR? (as this is a route I may go down if the SQ brought about by the lower box count is not signicantly worse/different).

Jude

 

Hi Jude

I'm afraid I didn't listen to anything with a Hicap, as I was just trying out complete 3-box systems that I considered buying. So the final showdown was between NDX/282/200DR and 272/XPS/250DR. Despite the obvious extra clout of the 250, I preferred the more refined sound of the NDX system. If I had a larger room with hard-to-drive speakers, that may have been enough to tip the balance in favour of the other system, but I don't.

Chris

So here we are questioning the product development strategy of arguably the most successful British hi-fi company ever.   What amuses me most is that only a little while ago there were threads running accusing Naim of selling out in launching the Muso and its little brother.  

It is good to have choice. Mixology can produce rather nice results though those attempts are sometimes despised or even derided.

ChrisSU posted:

Jude2012 posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Mark J posted:

Assuming Naim re-do the preamplifier line up at some stage it seems to me that XPS type supplies are the way to go. Can't see Naim bringing out preamp replacement models without on board streaming capability.

I don't agree. I think a bare NDX/282 sounds better than a 272/XPS - to the point that I'm prepared to turn down a 250 in favour of a 200DR so that it can provide DR power to the 282. This is in the context of my self-imposed limit of 3 full sized boxes. 

I have similar views of the V1 and bare 282.

Just wondering whether you have done a comparison of the 250 (DR or non-DR) with a HiCap DR vs. just 200DR? (as this is a route I may go down if the SQ brought about by the lower box count is not signicantly worse/different).

Jude

 

Hi Jude

I'm afraid I didn't listen to anything with a Hicap, as I was just trying out complete 3-box systems that I considered buying. So the final showdown was between NDX/282/200DR and 272/XPS/250DR. Despite the obvious extra clout of the 250, I preferred the more refined sound of the NDX system. If I had a larger room with hard-to-drive speakers, that may have been enough to tip the balance in favour of the other system, but I don't.

Chris

Understood, Chris. Thanks for replying.