Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Florestan posted:

Innocent Bystander, this is now about 1 1/2 years after Brexit intent of separation papers were filed and y'all sound as feckless a group as it can be?  Classic dominant submissive power struggle with Britain obviously the weaker partner.  Oh, they are so bad for us and abuse us but we need to stay suckled to the breast of the EU for our own good.  We'll die if we don't!  Oh, woe is us, why are we sleepwalking out of Europe?  Boo hoo hoo.

Seriously, you all need to start planning to succeed rather than spend these years planning to fail?

On an individual basis, those of us that can plan, can do what we can to make the best of whichever way it goes. But that is not what my post was about.

The UK is a representative democracy, and the public have to let their elective representatives get on with the job and do it. That does not mean people cannot or should not voice their views when they think what is being done is wrong, nor does it mean that the elected representatives should carry on regardless without lifting their heads to see if they are doing things right. This particular matter is fundamentally complicated because the original referendum two years ago a) did not address any aspect of the terms of exit from the EU, while b) the information as to what Brexit would ‘mean’ was largely speculative, full of inaccuracies and media hype, and far from a complete, so other than no longer being a member no-one had any idea of what leaving actually entailed, or how it would affect them, their families and their country. Even the very basic claim that the UK would immediately benefit from the saved cost of its annual membership fee was incorrect as there are financial commitments that the country entered into that will contnue for a long time.

As a consequence the UK is in a very difficult position, having committed to something with noidea of the outcome, then with politicians warring over the process while, it seems, having more interest in their own futures than that of the country and people they serve.

So the process is for people to engage in whatever way they can to try to get politicians to genuinely do what is right, which is what triggers all the discussion and argument - and my post was simply flagging up a view that I had not considered, in case also new to others.

My own view, as expressed many times in this forum, is that given the circumstances of the original referendum outlined above (which incidently had only a small majority of a low turnout in favour), coupled with the realities of what Brexit actually means only now becoming ckear, and in awareness this is an action that has far-reaching consequences, the only wise and sensible thing for the UK government to do is to have a confirmatory referendum that says this is what Brexit means (with full disclosure) - please confirm whether or not you, the people, want to proceed. And then act on the outcome of that.

Dave***T, no, I am just speaking some common sense which isn't so common these days.

My sense of the situation is that the majority of people in Britain want this.  The Naim forum tends to be overly populated with elite dissenters and doesn't represent what is really going on.  The decent, hard working people who want this don't follow poles, read the 'fake news' press headlines or hang around the elites to understand how to think or know which way is forward.

The other problem you have is your government.  Cowards, who are just keeping their heads down in order not to offend anyone so they can get re-elected.  Now, 1 1/2 years on you have all the academic professional pundits and ditherers coming out of the woodwork claiming to be so smart.

Best advice I have for you all to not destroy your country further is to get unified on the objective of leaving, roll up your sleeves and get to work on this.

All the people here complaining and crying about this will surely be the first ones to blame those who voted to leave the EU when your country inevitably fails but some of the blame must fall back on these smart devisive elites.  They didn't get their way so now all they do is obstruct and pull harder the other way.  Nothing will or can succeed in a house divided.

Florestan posted:

 

My sense of the situation is that the majority of people in Britain want this.Your sense is probably incorrect. The referrendum was pretty well even, and since then, I perceive a slight shift in the overall population towards remaining. But certainly there is no overwhelming majority either way IMHO.

The other problem you have is your government.  Cowards, who are just keeping their heads down in order not to offend anyone so they can get re-elected. Quite a few people will agree with this sentiment. 

I can't really follow what you are trying to say in the other parts of your post, so i've deleted them from my response.

Florestan posted:

 

My sense of the situation is that the majority of people in Britain want this.  

 

Where do you get that from?

in the vote two years ago there was a very small majority who voted for it, we have no idea how they feel now that infinitely more is known about the consequences - two years ago tgere was no talk of hard Brexit, no customs arrangements, border with Ireland, etc etc, so any number, on either side, may now think differently.

that is why I say there should indeed now be a poll to confirm before the deed is finally done, and there is no argument as to why that should not be done.

Don, so I am incorrect based on your perception?  Somehow can't follow your logic.  Last time I checked, the referendum ended in the people voting to leave?

"Pretty even?"  What does that even mean?  Close usually only counts when playing horse shoes or around hand grenades.

This is the classic loser sentiment you have.

Last I checked, a majority still happens to be 50% + 1.  You may not like this outcome but this has nothing to do with me or my observations. 

If it were the other way around, would you and your likeminded sleepwalkers give the time of day to anyone saying it was too close and we should have a second referendum?  

No, I didn't think so...The people have spoken, you will say, after all.

What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Don Atkinson posted:

Florestan posted:

 

My sense of the situation is that the majority of people in Britain want this.Your sense is probably incorrect. The referrendum was pretty well even, and since then, I perceive a slight shift in the overall population towards remaining. But certainly there is no overwhelming majority either way IMHO.

The other problem you have is your government.  Cowards, who are just keeping their heads down in order not to offend anyone so they can get re-elected. Quite a few people will agree with this sentiment. 

I can't really follow what you are trying to say in the other parts of your post, so i've deleted them from my response.

Not really wishing to rejoin this topic, as I had plenty of posts early on, pre-referendum, but I feel bound to question the notion that there has been a shift towards remaining .............. based on what, exactly?

Surely not the UK media's continual reporting of opinions, rather than facts?

As for the Government's handling of negotiations, it may well be true that they can be criticised over the apparent slow progress thus far, but I would suggest that the main reason for this lies with the EU and their intransigence, "pour encourager les autres".

Florestan posted:

Don, so I am incorrect That's correct  based on your perception? Somehow can't follow your logic.  Last time I checked, the referendum ended in the people voting to leave? Your words implied an overwhelming majority. The vote was marginal.

"Pretty even?"  What does that even mean? See above.  Close usually only counts when playing horse shoes or around hand grenades.Sure, but your words implied virtually all of us want to leave and with a hard Brexit to boot !

This is the classic loser sentiment -Boll*cks. A majority happens to be 50% + 1.Not in the sense that you intended in your post above.  You may not like this outcome but this has nothing to do with me or my observations.Well there you go. You have no understanding whatsoever of the situation. There's a LOT more to the situation than simply LEAVE.

If it were the other way around, would you and your likeminded sleepwalkers give the time of day to anyone saying it was too close and we should have a second referendum?  Stop the drivel.

No, I didn't think so...The people have spoken after all. Drivel.

What Britain needs is some real leadership Quite agree with you on that  to move you all forward. Drivel

"Pooh?" said Piglet.

"Yes, Piglet?" replied Pooh.

"Is everything going to be OK?"

"In what way, Piglet?" asked Pooh.

Piglet rubbed his nose in a nervous sort of way.

"You know, with Brexit. And rationing. And 729 international treaties to re-negotiate from scratch just to get back to here.  And," Piglet ran out of breath then made a small choking noise and swallowed. "And all that?" he finished and looked over at Pooh with a hopeful look.

Pooh Bear rubbed his nose too, but didn't find it quite as comforting it seemed to be for Piglet.

"Well, Piglet." Pooh said and then stopped to think some more, for this was a Very Big Thing for a Bear of Very Little Brain to consider. "Well, Piglet," he finally continued, "It all sounds like a very silly idea to me."

Pooh and Piglet looked out over the Hundred Acre Wood and contemplated the matter. Quietly, Piglet slipped his paw into Pooh's.

"We're totally f**ked, aren't we?" the Piglet managed in a hoarse whisper.

"Oh, yes." replied Pooh, patting his paw. "Completely f**ked." 

Florestan posted:

Don, so I am incorrect based on your perception?  Somehow can't follow your logic.  Last time I checked, the referendum ended in the people voting to leave?

"Pretty even?"  What does that even mean?  Close usually only counts when playing horse shoes or around hand grenades.

This is the classic loser sentiment you have.

Last I checked, a majority still happens to be 50% + 1.  You may not like this outcome but this has nothing to do with me or my observations. 

If it were the other way around, would you and your likeminded sleepwalkers give the time of day to anyone saying it was too close and we should have a second referendum?  

No, I didn't think so...The people have spoken, you will say, after all.

What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

From IB who has unique and privileged knowledge from Government officials...

'...there is considered to be a very real risk of food shortages immediately after Brexit, exacerbated by associated panic buying, with real potential for riots and lawlessness if the worst scenarios come to pass.'

and even better...

'.time to hole up, stock up, and prepare to sit it out.'

Ladies and Gents we have a new phenomenon..the Brexit Preppa.

And to think it wasn't that long ago we were brave enough and sufficiently stoic to face down the tyranny of European Facism. And not too long before that we were confident enough to oversee and a global trading empire.

Ray

Florestan posted:

Don, so I am incorrect based on your perception?  Somehow can't follow your logic.  Last time I checked, the referendum ended in the people voting to leave?

"Pretty even?"  What does that even mean?  Close usually only counts when playing horse shoes or around hand grenades.

This is the classic loser sentiment you have.

Last I checked, a majority still happens to be 50% + 1.  You may not like this outcome but this has nothing to do with me or my observations. 

If it were the other way around, would you and your likeminded sleepwalkers give the time of day to anyone saying it was too close and we should have a second referendum?  

No, I didn't think so...The people have spoken, you will say, after all.

What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Someone like the orange moron perhaps?

Not really, just the hoards of I’ll informed folk who voted Brexit landing us all in this mess. I really do worry for my children - most Brexiteers I know are retired and are on healthy public sector pensions (GPs in the main) - their response - I’ve got nothing to worry about. Selfish or what?????

Don, I realize you believe what you say so badly but intellectually, using the word "drivel" after everything doesn't typically work for winning in a sensible conversation.

Overwhelming majority vs. pretty even.  This is just talk of those who tend to like to get their own way all the time.  You don't get your way so becoming a bully and putting down your opposition is the only way to go.

You aren't seriously suggesting that if Britain voted to remain (with a similar margin reversed ie. 'pretty even') you would be here fighting tooth and nail for a second referendum?  Your responses of bollocks and drivel suggest that you would not be.

Somewhat hypocritical, don't you think?

The only conclusion then is that you are all fighting and acting this way because you are sore losers.

Seems only reasonable that someone here sticks their neck out and says what none of you can get yourselves to accept.

Get unified and you will have a better outcome than most of you being resistors only to confirm later that it could never work.  Somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy.

thebigfredc posted:

From IB who has unique and privileged knowledge from Government officials...

'...there is considered to be a very real risk of food shortages immediately after Brexit, exacerbated by associated panic buying, with real potential for riots and lawlessness if the worst scenarios come to pass.'

and even better...

'.time to hole up, stock up, and prepare to sit it out.'

Ladies and Gents we have a new phenomenon..the Brexit Preppa.

And to think it wasn't that long ago we faced down the tyranny of European Facism.

Ray

Please do not quote out of context, as you certainly have with the “time to hole up...” Twas, as it said, for the pessimistec. I.e. who believe that it does mean the end of the world as we know it and that there is no hope of it being anything else, and - I hoped clearly, but evidently not to clearly enough for all - intended more as a suitably lighthearted and far from serious round-off

Time for dinner...Ceasar's salad....best I eat it quick before IB's impending food shortages.

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

If I understand the need to stay, the remainers (remoaners?) [spell check is having issues?] want the dominant EU to continue dishing out the rules for how things are going to be.  ie: unbelievable regulation / control / costs but most importantly - open borders.  Is their anything else here I have missed?  Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

thebigfredc posted:

Time for dinner...Ceasar's salad....best I eat it quick before IB's impending food shortages.

Might not have that if this drought continues and sea levels rise

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

If I understand the need to stay, the remainers (remoaners?) [spell check is having issues?] want the dominant EU to continue dishing out the rules for how things are going to be.  ie: unbelievable regulation / control / costs but most importantly - open borders.  Is their anything else here I have missed?  Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Working in a global business and having worked in and around a number of geographies including APAC it’s easy to see what an insignificant island we are - wake up folks were a shadow of our former selves on the world stage with a teeny weeny manusfacturing base.

Florestan posted:

Don, I realize you believe what you say Not much point in saying things you don't believe especially when there is ample evidence to support that belief. so badly but intellectually, using the word "drivel" after everything doesn't typically work for winning in a sensible conversation.I didn't use use "drivel" after everything. Just the parts that are drivel.

Overwhelming majority vs. pretty even.  This is just talk of those who tend to like to get their own way all the time.  You don't get your way so becoming a bully and putting down your opposition is the only way to go. Your opening post stated "My sense of the situation is that the majority of people in Britain want this."  These words are so far out of touch with the situation that they expose your lack of understanding. I have underscored two words which should help you to understand how this sentence reads. Sense = no facts. "Majority" in this sentence implies virtually all the people, not 50% + 1 as you subsequently claim. This typical of the irrationality and illogicality of many of your posts.

You aren't seriously suggesting that if Britain voted to remain (with a similar margin reversed ie. 'pretty even') you would be here fighting tooth and nail for a second referendum?  Your responses of bollocks and drivel suggest that you would not be.Again, this is pointless drivel.

Somewhat hypocritical, don't you think? You are unsuccessfully trying to put words into my mouth, then claim that I am being hypocritical. This is most politely referred to as drivel.

The only conclusion then is (what follows is NOT the only conclusion. It might be your conclusion, but it's not the only conclusion)  that you are all fighting and acting this way because you are sore losers. First, nobody is fighting. A fair number of good people are clarifying what the main issues are and discussing what might be the best way forward. It isn't just a case of Remain v Hard Brexit. For example, there are c.500 EU Agencies that the UK  and EU need to decide whether we remain members or not and if we remain, on what terms. I have illustrated this several times with EASA, of which Iceland Norway and Switzerland are members. That is your conclusion, but it isn't the case.I really don't know what you are attempting to say here, But you clearly don't have clue about the details of the Brexit negotiations.

Seems only reasonable that someone here sticks their neck outit's not reasonable at all and says what none of you can get yourselves to accept. as I say, you clearly don't have a clue about Brexit.

Get unified and you will have a better outcome than most of you being resistors only to confirm later that it could never work.  Somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps you could outline what your version of "unified" would look like and you never know, we might all decide that YOU should be our next leader.

Don,

I know you started the thread but the red, italics thing is wearing a bit thin now and may be counterproductive in that it may be deterring people from reading your replies rather than attracting folks to them. Its just a thought.

Ray

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Respectively:

No, it's not.  It's one part of a huge number of hugely complicated issues.

Without getting into specifics, no, you're completely wrong.

No, millions of people are very concerned about something completely different.

It remains the name for the island of which England, Scotland and Wales are parts, and it's probably debatable whether it includes the other smaller islands.  The 'great' part is not an evaluative term in the way you seek to imply.  Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland, which, ironically, is a bit of a statement about how much you understand whereof you speak.

thebigfredc posted:

Don,

I know you started the thread but the red, italics thing is wearing a bit thin now and may be counterproductive in that it may be deterring people from reading your replies rather than attracting folks to them. Its just a thought.

Ray

Thanks for the thought Ray.

Florestan's threads are difficult to follow and I find the best way is to pin my responses directly to the bits that I hope I understood.

You will notice that I don't do this bold/red/italics too often.

Cheers

Don

Dave***t posted:

<

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

Please explain? 

.sjb

A brief summary of the Brexit situation – as I understand it.

The referendum was in favour of Leaving the EU

Referenda aren’t generally binding, but the Government said it will honour the outcome

The Conservative Government has said we WILL leave

Most of our MPs voted to Remain and consider this would be in our best interest

However, most MPs claim that the principles of democracy demand that we do leave

We could have just stated that we have left (at least I think we could have). We didn’t

We have agreed how much we are willing to pay to settle our obligations to the EU

We would like to reach agreement on a number of other issues before leaving

As an aside, Canada has a new trading agreement with the EU

It seems sensible to me to try to put in place a trading agreement before we leave rather than after we leave.

It also seems sensible before leaving to agree which, if any, EU Agencies we would mutually like to remain part of, the cost and the terms and conditions.

If more time is required, or a transition period is appropriate, so be it

If we can’t reach agreement on all these issues and a practical way forward then

It looks like a No-Deal departure. The Government has said it will allow MPs to have a meaningful vote

Before we leave !

No doubt followed by UK/EU discussion post Brexit in much the same way as Canada.

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.