Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

As I see it it's fairly simple. I'll vote whichever way is most likely to keep that gobshite Kinnock off of breakfast radio. This morning's session was a masterclass in lies, damned lies and statistics.

Willy.

So no deal today and they've all been told to book hotels for the night !

Can't see much enthusiasm for reform this weekend.

I think its about time we started planning for life outside the EU.

OOpps................2 hours is a long time in politics

Looks like all 28 have reached agreement. But agreement on what. This will slowly emerge I guess. With Nigel Farage suggesting it means one thing and David Cameron something else. Plenty to discuss before a referendum !!

And the referendum its self, I hope the outcome doesn't depend on a simple majority of those who can be bothered to vote !

I suggest it should require a majority of those who are eligible to vote.

The BBC website's summary of the key elements of the agreement don't look very substantive to me.  No doubt the PM will talk them up (understandably given the huge personal effort he's put into securing them) but I suspect the Europhobes and some of the right-wing press will rubbish the deal.

It will be interesting to watch the machinations among senior ministers now. Do they tuck in behind what their leader has secured or speak candidly, knowing that the latter will draw attention to the (long-held) divisions within the Conservative party? The Labour party's internal squabbling has distracted attention away from those divisions since the election, which the Conservative party must have enjoyed. Are we now on the cusp of those divisions breaking out again secure in the knowledge that the weak Opposition are unlikely to be able to take much if any advantage?

Don Atkinson posted:

I suggest it should require a majority of those who are eligible to vote.

Don, I don't think that will happen, although the Tories are trying to impose a similar thing on the unions when it comes to voting for strike action.

I don't think the nation will sleep walk out of Europe. I think they will vote to remain and it will be thanks to the people who aren't bothered either way. The die hard euro sceptic will vote out, no matter what, the die hard Europhile will vote in, no matter what. The majority aren't really bothered either way, they'll vote in, why would they risk leaving the EU. Compared to other countries worldwide, we're doing pretty well at the moment, inside the EU but not in the euro.

People fear change.

I think it will now be a "free-for-all" - which is another word for democracy, I guess.

It isn't the elected representatives who will vote, it's us, the electorate.

Sure, our elected representatives will be keen to persuade us one way or another, but so will other interested parties such as CBI, Farmer's union, bankers.....you name it, with a bit of luck they will present their case carefully and clearly to persuade us to vote their way.

I anticipate the SNP will be for the "In" campaign whilst UKIP will be for the "Out" vote.

Tories, Lib_dems and Labour MPs will be free to campaign as they wish.

Perhaps we should have a parallel vote regarding "In" or "Out" of the Commonwealth ?

fatcat posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I suggest it should require a majority of those who are eligible to vote.

Don, I don't think that will happen, although the Tories are trying to impose a similar thing on the unions when it comes to voting for strike action.

I don't think the nation will sleep walk out of Europe. I think they will vote to remain and it will be thanks to the people who aren't bothered either way. The die hard euro sceptic will vote out, no matter what, the die hard Europhile will vote in, no matter what. The majority aren't really bothered either way, they'll vote in, why would they risk leaving the EU. Compared to other countries worldwide, we're doing pretty well at the moment, inside the EU but not in the euro.

People fear change.

frank, I agree. Just because I make a suggestion here on the Naim Forum, doesn't necessarily mean it will happen

I agree that people avoid change. It will take a huge effort to motivate people to positively vote for change. And most people won't evaluate risk themselves, even if presented with verifiable facts. They follow their chosen leader (usually).

If the principles discussed are maintained ie greater flexibility and independence with the EU for the UK then I would not be surprised to see countries like The Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden also arguing for similar freedoms.

Dear Derek,

What you say may well be right. And this greater flexibility may allow the EU to be elastic enough to survive if it is allowed - and be a thoroughly good thing. 

All inflexible structures crack and fracture apart in time. 

ATB from George

Derek Wright posted:

If the principles discussed are maintained ie greater flexibility and independence with the EU for the UK then I would not be surprised to see countries like The Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden also arguing for similar freedoms.

100%,   the only problem I see is those countries using the Euro; so it will probably mean Nederlands is less able to move in that direction than is Sweden & Danmark (who were never too happy towards EU)

I think there are nine members of the EU who are not part of the Eurozone. Of those nine, only Denmark and th UK are not obliged to join the Euro.

However, the seven who are obliged to join only need to do what Sweden is doing, ie avoid meeting the criteria for joining the Euro. In Sweden's case, they haven't joined the voluntary  ERM which is the first requirement for joining the Euro................the others will have to find different means of "failing" to meet the criteria if they don't wish to join the Euro.

Quite separately, I agree with Derek that other countries might now wish to re-negotiate their terms of membership.

Perhaps one day we'll get around to re-organising the EU along more sensible lines.

Or the EU will comprise only three members viz, UK, Denmark and Eurozone. Each with equal voting rights

fatcat posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I suggest it should require a majority of those who are eligible to vote.

Don, I don't think that will happen,although the Tories are trying to impose a similar thing on the unions when it comes to voting for strike action.

Yes Frank, that's what was also in my mind when I drafted my "majority of thoseeligable  to vote" propsal as opposed to "majority of thosebotherd  to vote".

Hypocritical ?

The UK may begin leaving the EU within months - at least with any luck!

I hope that other countries will follow our [nascent] lead! A new organisation organised along the lines of the EFTA should replace the EU with all haste that can be managed. NATO should continue on the Military side of course.

ATB from George

George, I'm not sure why you are so keen for the UK to leave the EU ("at least with any luck"), given your previous opinion that life will continue more or less unchanged whether we leave or stay ?

PS. My lunch-break ends at 14:00 so please don't be offended if I don't re-appear unti later this evening

George - I think I increasingly share this view, i just can't help feeling the EU belongs to a bygone era and the world has moved on... and the lack of apparent democracy and seemingly accountability I find repugnant.

The Common Market was and is a great idea - but the EU with its of political harmonisation  - no thank you.

We complain about our first past the post electoral system, but to me it appears with the EU this is what we have too - but instead of seats we have countries.

Simon

Dear Don,

Because first and foremost I want each people of Europe in each European State to have their own national sovereignty, so that the democracies may best express the wishes of the peoples.

For trade an organisation based on EFTA would form a good basis for trade, but the political shenanigans that have been going on since the UK joined the EEC lead me to believe than my ideals of sovereign nations governed by democracy rather fudge is never going to be possibly with the dead weight of the EU bureaucracy able to over-rule each member State.

For defence, we already have the highly effective and successful organisation, NATO, to allow strategic co-opperation between allies.

It is a principled view based on a profound belief in democracy as the least deleterious way of forming state administrations.

As daily life will continue either way, one should in my select the way forward that maximises democracy over bureaucracy.

ATB from George

Daily life won't continue in the same way for the thousands who will be unemployed when their companies leave the UK and relocate to mainland Europe. 

Don Atkinson posted:

ERM which is the first requirement for joining the Euro

I am in favour of the UK joining a common market, ie trade zone, but not a federal Europe.  To remain in the EC our voice is only one of 28, so will not have a significant sway on EC policy - look what difficulties we had in negotiating these new terms.  If we remain in the EC we are effectively inward looking to the other EC members, whereas outside, there is the whole world.  The economic performance of the EC zone is hardly impressive!  I expect the vote will be to remain in the EC as the pro-Europe group, including the BBC, will play the "fear factor" and produce one scare story after another.  The various "out" groups hardly have a united and coherent campaign, at least not at the moment.

the lack of apparent democracy and seemingly accountability I find repugnant

As long as it's not the lack of real democracy, and real accountability, it's ok...

Some people in this thread (this is not meant for Simon) seem to have a bee in their bonnets abour bureaucracy - the bureaucrats in Brussels or elsewhere don't make decisions. Basic knowledge of how the European institutions work should be required before a referendum takes place. Personally, it's the posturing of the past 48 hours that I find repugnant. A total and absolute lack of vision on all sides, and that includes France, Germany, etc.

In my view, democracy hasn't been lessened by the whole European thing - our governments can still (unfortunately sometimes) pass most of the laws which they feel are necessary, consumer protection, for one thing, is far better today, there's greater concern for the environment as a whole, for our respective national heritages, and we are better protected against the excesses of our governments... Think of how some nations (Ireland?) have been transformed by joining Europe.

What are those laws that Europe stops you having? Only precise answers, please.

UK National Sovereignty.

Is that concise enough for you?

It is a philosophical point perhaps, but it is why millions gave their lives to defend a philosophy of existence.

ATB from George

Hungryhalibut posted:

Daily life won't continue in the same way for the thousands who will be unemployed when their companies leave the UK and relocate to mainland Europe. 

Or for those in employment whose rights, currently protected by EU legislation, then face the full, unfettered 'reforms' (sic) that many in the conservative party and their industry supporters would like to see implemented.  

Frenchnaim posted:

Some people in this thread (this is not meant for Simon) seem to have a bee in their bonnets abour bureaucracy - the bureaucrats in Brussels or elsewhere don't make decisions. Basic knowledge of how the European institutions work should be required before a referendum takes place.

 

Yes, I agree with that.  For many years there has been a lot of mis-information promulgated in the British Press about what 'faceless EU bureaucrats' impose or plan to impose on the UK.  The reality is very different.