CD 555 vs NDS in naim demos?

Stefan Vogt posted:

I'm just asking since a friend mentioned to me, to my surprise, that high-calibre CD players still have an edge over any streamers / DACs?

Do they ?

I can't remember the last time I went to a demo and they used a CD player, which probably says something given that the purpose of the demo is to sell kit.  The last one I attended was for the range of DR amps (compared to non DR) through Sopra 2s.  The source was an NDX with power supply.  funnily enough I also can't remember the last time I saw an amp/speaker demo using a turntable either

Stefan Vogt posted:

I"'m just asking since a friend mentioned to me, to my surprise, that high-calibre CD players still have an edge over any streamers / DACs? "

I agree with the comment from JAMES N. I very much doubt that this is the case. I guess that there may be examples in manufacturers' ranges where some people prefer the sound of a CD player to the equivalent streamer in a product range (eg CD555 vs NDS). However I suspect that the majority of Naim users would plump for the NDS or nDAC over the CD player.

Certainly, there is no way that Naim would demonstrate their hi-end gear using an NDS at prestigious Hi-Fi shows if they believed it to be inferior. Linn no longer market their CD player range, and I haven't heard anyone in the Linn camp lament this fact, or claim that their CD players sounded as good as their top-of-the-range 'Klimax' streamers. I suspect that in the course of time, Naim will also completely phase out their CD players in favour of local Network or Internet based streamers.

Naim are just following market trend to stay in business, simple as that really, and if you believe Naim have your best interest at heart then i don't really know how to answer that.

I thought the market trend was Bluetooth speakers designed to play mp3s from an iPhone?  If I was auditioning an amp or set of speakers why would I have any interest in anything other than how good they sound - doesn't bother me what the market is doing as a trend because I want to hear what the amp and speakers are capable of.

You can argue which sounds best but no one can dispute that both are high quality sources. However, I very much suspect in terms of sales the NDS outsells the 555 by a considerable amount. When it comes to demonstrations, it's a lot easier to stream than having to swap over CDs.

Of course, its always about sells!

However, Naim being a Reputable Company puts forth an effort to market it's products in the same fashion they manufacture their products!

One can read the lines

One can read between the lines

One can read beyond the lines

@ 13K, Our reference network player, the NDS, is an audiophile-quality music source, every bit the sonic EQUAL of the very finest high-end CD players and turntables.

But more than any one particular aspect of its presentation, @ 25K, the CD555’s genius is the way it brings each disparate strand of your music together into one fluid, NATURAL and involving performance. This, WE BELIEVE, is how hi-fi should sound.

The Armchair QB!!!

To answer the original question, I've attended 3 Statement demonstrations and it was NDS every time - it's unlikely they'd hobble their flagship system with  a source they thought was inferior.

I doubt that one could design, manufacture, or justify offering a high-end Compact-Disc only player in 2016, and I'm sure that it was almost as much a doubtful enterprise ten years ago.

In speaking with other manufacturers' R&D folks, there is a definite cynicism regarding disc players in general, with a tempered reliance upon the goodwill of long-term, devoted customers to make the choice to upgrade or avoid altogether a new disc-spinner (regardless of the choice of primary format - SACD, Blu-ray, or Red Book CD). And that's ignoring the obvious issue with key modules availability (transport mechs, chipsets, etc.), which no longer becomes an issue (mostly) with networked sources.

Allante93 posted:

Of course, its always about sells!

However, Naim being a Reputable Company puts forth an effort to market it's products in the same fashion they manufacture their products!

One can read the lines

One can read between the lines

One can read beyond the lines

@ 13K, Our reference network player, the NDS, is an audiophile-quality music source, every bit the sonic EQUAL of the very finest high-end CD players and turntables.

But more than any one particular aspect of its presentation, @ 25K, the CD555’s genius is the way it brings each disparate strand of your music together into one fluid, NATURAL and involving performance. This, WE BELIEVE, is how hi-fi should sound.

The Armchair QB!!!

These are direct quotes from Naim's website, Remember many have suggest Naim introduce a more expensive streamer to match The Statement!

As far as sales and Marketing, Naim has no choice, but to cater to the younger generation!

Naim Speaks!!!

Read beyond the lines!

Allante93!!!! 

Well I'm not sure how you would establish which sounds best.  The nearest you'd get is to rip a particular piece of music WAV and playback through a NDS/555 and directly compare with the same piece played on a CD555. 

All I can say is that having several times heard a CD555 through a full 500 series it is literally breathtaking. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Well I'm not sure how you would establish which sounds best.  The nearest you'd get is to rip a particular piece of music WAV and playback through a NDS/555 and directly compare with the same piece played on a CD555. 

All I can say is that having several times heard a CD555 through a full 500 series it is literally breathtaking. 

Wow Strat, looks like you and Naim are on the same page!

""But more than any one particular aspect of its presentation, the CD555’s genius is the way it brings each disparate strand of your music together into one fluid, natural and involving performance. This, we believe, is how hi-fi should sound.""

I never heard a CD555, not to popular in the US, if One is lucky, Ndx/250.2, I'm still waiting on local dealer to demo a 250DR. 

Hence, I coin myself the Armchair QB!

However, was lucky enough to attend a Seminar, hosted by the Esteem Manu!

Statement/2 x 555PS/NDS

You guys are lucky, with so many Naim Dealers, that actually allow take out demo's!

The Armchair QB!!!!

I marginally prefer the 555 to the NDS, although the latter can sound stunning with certain hi-res files. I already have a 555 but if I was buying now, though, there's no doubt I'd go for the NDS, partly for the convenience and partly to declutter. As things stand, though, I'm sticking with the 555, partly because of the sound but mostly because I couldn't be bothered to go ripping all my CDs. Also, I'm convinced there's a nice step change about to happen in how files are stored and managed, and I'd rather wait for that to happen than futz about. Some of the high-end CD players can , of course, also be used as DACs, giving on the best of both formats (if you like their sound). The Rega Isis is a rather tempting offering on that score, but then there are also (pricer and more resolving) alternatives from Soulution and Vitus amongst others.

I did the home demo comparison a year or two ago and still prefer my 555 source in terms of musical presentation and specifically clarity of top end and percussion at bass-end. But the NDS had things going for it too, so it was not all one way and would understand why many would go for the NDS.

I think it is easy for a single-box dedicated CD-only solution to out-perform a distributed system that NDS really needs to work.
I will re-try the NDS again sometime, perhaps even this year, as I want to hear it have the edge on the 555 as some things have moved along perhaps for the NDS, but it didn't last time I tried is where I am at present.

There is a different presentation from the NDS, much of which I liked a lot, but I missed the way the 555 presented things too and wanted to really have both! In the end I may well just do that.

Naim are committed to streaming as the business case for them makes obvious sense - and it is right IMO.
But there will still be people spinning their CDs and Vinyl for a while I suspect.

DB.

I've attended 3 Statement demos run by Naim and at each they have had NDS and CD555.  At none of them did they use the CD555.

That doesn't imply that the CD555 is "no good" or "worse than NDS", I suspect simply a combination of understanding where the market (sales) are and the convenience of being able to play a variety of tracks without a lot of disk swapping.

I suspect that the only people still buying new CD555s are those upgrading from earlier CDPs who remain totally committed to CD replay.  I wouldn't go near a 20K CDP now because there are long term question marks over the availability of the laser mechs (already unavailable in some earlier Naim models) and the fact that any future trade in value now would be pitiful given such a small demand in second hand market.

However none of those points detract from the SQ of the CD555; it's still an excellent player.

From a technical point of view, it should be easier to get better sound from a cost no object streamer than cost no object CD player due to the mechanical and real time reading nature of reading a CD vs the do it once and store in memory nature of ripping a CD.  The actual music "data" you are playing is identical however so fundermentally both if playing perfectly should sound the same!

Michael_B. posted:

I marginally prefer the 555 to the NDS, although the latter can sound stunning with certain hi-res files. I already have a 555 but if I was buying now, though, there's no doubt I'd go for the NDS, partly for the convenience and partly to declutter. As things stand, though, I'm sticking with the 555, partly because of the sound but mostly because I couldn't be bothered to go ripping all my CDs. Also, I'm convinced there's a nice step change about to happen in how files are stored and managed, and I'd rather wait for that to happen than futz about. 

 

Michael - just about my take.  I reckoned I needed to buy a NDS Unitiqute or ripper of some type, NAS and then spend an eternity ripping and tagging 000s of CDs where the alternative is putting the disc in the superb CDS3 and pressing play. 

Incidentally I never hear of people pairing NDS with the XPS.  I say this because a marginally interesting comparison would be with my CDS3/XPS.  

Gentleman, Simon said it best, we are entering a new Paradigm. Where we now have two digital Sources to go along with the Analog TT. 

That's right TT, Digital CD, and Digital Streaming, depending on Music Preference and Mood!

Personally, I never got caught up in the TT vs CD Era, had both LP 12, and Linn Genki.  However my quest for Naim gear, got a bit expensive,  and  decided to sale the LP 12, didn't want to invest the 6K to bring it up to date!

Now its The Flat Room, Cdx2>282>HCDR>3 x 250.2>Fraimlite>Briks, and Round Room, Primare Pre 30> Arcam P1 mono Blocks>Vienna Acoustics Baby Grands!  I'm old school don't really understand streaming, I guess I'm streaming in a way, purchase music from iTunes, for $1, add it to my Library, rip Cds with my Mac Mini, add those to my library, Then Stream from my Airport Extreme, to my Airport Expresses. Flat Room, Round Room, and Rec Room! But at the end of the Day, The Flat Room is for Serious Listening, The Round  Room is the sleek and convenient with the Emotive dac 1, clearly outperforming the dac within the $100 Airport Express! Well I'm getting a little long winded, Out! 

Oh, The Rec Room is for those who don't have a Clue, and guess what, they think it Kick But!!!  Emotive UMC 1> Arcam FMJ>Klipsch!

Enjoy your Music!!!

The Armchair QB!!!!!!

I think there are multiple potential reasons at stake here:

- they might think the NDS is superior, I personally have never heard a 555 so I can't compare;

- the NDS seems to benefit more from adding another 555PS so has more potential, I have heard it with two 555PS's on statement and it sounded like heaven;

- with high res files you can top the performance of a cd replay as such;

- and I think the most important reason is the ease of doing a demo when you do it with a streamer, it's more convenient to quickly switch and make comparisons.

If you've heard a CDS3, you've heard Naim's best CD player. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

If you've heard a CDS3, you've heard Naim's best CD player. 

A view which I also hold.

The CDS 3 had everything in my view. No replay is perfect, but the CDS 3 made a remarkable stab at it. I preferred it to the 555 CD, but then I prefer small amplifiers as well!

ATB from George

As a CDS3 owner - albeit with non dr XPS - I don't agree.  The 555 gives another dimension and staging that the CDS3 just doesn't reach.  

What convinced me to change from CD555 to NDS, both powered by 2*555ps, was the availability of 24 bit recordings, most of which are, to me, a step above the CD555 capability. I think the CD555 playing a CD is different, and probably better than the equivalent 16 Bit rip heard via NDS, but it is such a close run thing, that once I made the change, I did not miss the CD555, and the way the NDS opens up your collection, while doing away with little piles of Jewel cases, is the icing on the cake. 

DavidDever posted:

I doubt that one could design, manufacture, or justify offering a high-end Compact-Disc only player in 2016, and I'm sure that it was almost as much a doubtful enterprise ten years ago.

So that means some of us may be fortunate to hold one of the best CD players ever made (CD555). Others, possibly the best FM tuner (NAT01 - not me).

At least some comfort until the next generation streamer appears!

An NDS can play bit perfect files ripped by unitiserve and HDX.

According to some (please see Barry Diament post on this), there is no CD transport that can recover the data as well as a specialized computer transport like that in HDX.

The HDX reads data at least twice - the CD player has to do this in real time and can only read data once.

with DBpoweramp and accuraterip, by comparing against a database, the program can report back if you have a perfect rip or not. 

A perfect rip into a lesser DAC is allegedly better than a compromised rip into the better DAC.