Is Melco the new Hugo...

Halloween Man posted:

Hifi is technology and will evolve over time so it's only natural that certain products such as Hugo will move the techonology forward and become popular.

I think the Melco is getting a hard time on this thread. It seeems pretty good value when compared to Naim's equivalent products including Unitiserve. Would anyone care to comment on Naim's internal screening and floating leads? It scores one above these because it offers usb audio output so can act as an audio store, streamer, and player. Perfect product for feeding the Hugo directly. To me looks like a well made and well thought out product, it has a high quality power supply and other high grade components optomised for audio. Would I hear any improvement compared to my Mac Mini feeding Hugo TT? If so the only explanation would be the rfi radiating from the Mac Mini. Maybe its worth a try and see...

All good points, well made. We do tend to judge kit on how it measures or how in our view it is deficient in some way, but in the end, the only way we get to know is to use it in our own systems. I take the point about Naim's equivalents, but then I'd never dream of dropping £19-odd K on a streamer without spending considerable time listening to the alternatives.

I haven't heard a Melco, but what it probably does very well (from what I read) is to avoid any kind of injection of noise into the DAC or streamer.

it probably also reduces timing errors.

However at that prices it is really only for the hi-end systems, NDS/555 with a 252/300 as a minimum

is it a Hugo? No, not at the price.

As someone said, we all love a giant killer but not actual giants.

Having said that I did listen to a full Naim CD555/552/500 system yesterday, I did love it.

Hugo tt usb has galvanic isolation so injection of noise not an issue

There appears huge confusion about galvanic isolation. Galvanic isolation prevents earth loops - ergo it isolates DC and very low frequencies. Electrical noise from PCs is higher frequency or what we often term Radio Frequency. Galvanic isolation does nothing for this noise. Different isolation and filtering techniques are required for RF/EM voltages.

Analogmusic - couldn't quite follow your point about timing errors- what are you referring to with regard to the Melco? BTW all devices create noise - all you can do is to work to reduce it.

What it appears to boil down to is pedigree vs actual performance or VFM. Take your pick.

Simon the radio/high frequency you mention, does this penetrate the dac via usb cable or is it emitted/radiated from the noisy device? I was under the impression galvanic isolation eliminated high frequency noise getting into the DAC from the usb connection. It does nothing about the high frequency noise generated from the pc

I wasn't in the market for one, and it took months of casual investigation, but I eventually realized what the Melco NA1 was. I now have one in my system connect to and using the DAC of the ND5-XS. I think it is an outstanding digital library. I ripped everything to it using the "0" option compression FLAC with DBpoweramp. The Melco SW is intuitive and the unit works as advertised. Previously, digital was a secondary source for me via a dedicated MBP operating as a dedicated server. The sonic improvements that were obvious to me  (darker background, slightly better dynamics, slightly "cleaner" presentation) all were welcome improvements--subtle, yes, but neverthess obvious. The ineffable part was that I was enjoying digital much more. Again, I can't quantify why but it is just one of those things. What is very interesting is that when I compare a identical track against a "premium" Tidal rendering, the Melco often seems to sound a wee bit "better" to my ears. Again, no idea why but it is what I hear. If I had it all to do again, (I purchased the ND5-XS the same week) I would probably forego the Melco--not because it doesn't do what it is supposed to, rather, I now find myself totally enamored with Tidal which through the Naim gives me everything and more that I could want from a digital source (not the least of which is being able to discover new music based of my existing preferences). 

Current configuration: Naim ND5-XS, Melco N1A, Primaluna Dialogue Premium, KEF LS50s, (2) REL T/7i, Well Tempered Amadeus/Lyra Helikon SL, Musical Surrounds Nova II, Chord Cadenza, Chord Epic Twin.

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's new, it's different, it's better. But is it really? Is it better because others say it is? Is it just the new must-have box? 

Better is the bait word. We use it to grab attention and inject an air of authority, omitting how the new improves on the old. We might even throw in a substantially before the better, for facile emphasis (guilty as charged).

Better has a short shelf life ; there's always something better.

Better settle for the best. But at what ?

Or perhaps just the really good.  But is really good good enough ?

What do you use as your yardstick ?

no different to the new and better 'dr'. we should listen to new gear blind so our bias does not get in the way. the listening test should determine we can distinquish between the two 10 out of 10 times and that we prefer one sound over the other. try this with different brand speakers, its easy, try this with same brand power amps, not so easy.

Halloween Man posted:

Simon the radio/high frequency you mention, does this penetrate the dac via usb cable or is it emitted/radiated from the noisy device? I was under the impression galvanic isolation eliminated high frequency noise getting into the DAC from the usb connection. It does nothing about the high frequency noise generated from the pc

Hi, RF noise in our applications tends to couple in common mode into interconnects and other leads. Typically the return path is capacitively coupled to your ground in your room, or perhaps the mains earth as well.

Galvanic isolation is used to break earth loops.. This is where a ground loop is caused and low frequency EM fields, typically the background mains field is induced into the loop.

Galvanic isolation can stop lower frequency audible noisy modulation of the earth current from say a floating PC ground passing through the signal or interconnect ground... but RF will couple across this. RF needs other methods to filter.

Simon

thanks simon. its difficult to understand the theory as a layman. an important consideration for me was that i read rob watts (we are influenced by what we read online), designer of hugo, explain that he now considered galvanic isolated usb from a computer superior to optical (zero rf) into hugo tt. surely if there was a real issue with rf from the computer affecting sound quality he would not come to this recommendation?

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's interesting how certain products somehow capture the zeitgeist, bubble up to the top of the pond, and take on a life of their own. 

Perhaps we're just suckers for better.  Maybe we're enjoying the upgrade journey. Possibly, we're dazzled by technology (Hugo). Or not (Melco). Or tantalized by the promise of relief from all of that. 

i recently read my 3 year old the emperor's new clothes. at the end i thought, my god, that's me and one believes what everyone else believes.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Simon the radio/high frequency you mention, does this penetrate the dac via usb cable or is it emitted/radiated from the noisy device? I was under the impression galvanic isolation eliminated high frequency noise getting into the DAC from the usb connection. It does nothing about the high frequency noise generated from the pc

Hi, RF noise in our applications tends to couple in common mode into interconnects and other leads. Typically the return path is capacitively coupled to your ground in your room, or perhaps the mains earth as well.

Galvanic isolation is used to break earth loops.. This is where a ground loop is caused and low frequency EM fields, typically the background mains field is induced into the loop.

Galvanic isolation can stop lower frequency audible noisy modulation of the earth current from say a floating PC ground passing through the signal or interconnect ground... but RF will couple across this. RF needs other methods to filter.

Simon

 

this issue is very relevant  to me right now, as you know, so i read this kind of posting with great interest :-)

Not sure i full understand the issues though -- as they seem to be multi-faceted.

enjoy

ken

Halloween Man posted:

thanks simon. its difficult to understand the theory as a layman. an important consideration for me was that i read rob watts (we are influenced by what we read online), designer of hugo, explain that he now considered galvanic isolated usb from a computer superior to optical (zero rf) into hugo tt. surely if there was a real issue with rf from the computer affecting sound quality he would not come to this recommendation?

I suspect RW was comparing several things together - as clearly a Toslink fibre connection is galvanically isolated, He was perhaps comparing his USB and Toslink SPDIF.

I found a layman's description of Galvanic isolation - I hope it helps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_isolation

S

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Halloween Man posted:

thanks simon. its difficult to understand the theory as a layman. an important consideration for me was that i read rob watts (we are influenced by what we read online), designer of hugo, explain that he now considered galvanic isolated usb from a computer superior to optical (zero rf) into hugo tt. surely if there was a real issue with rf from the computer affecting sound quality he would not come to this recommendation?

I suspect RW was comparing several things together - as clearly a Toslink fibre connection is galvanically isolated, He was perhaps comparing his USB and Toslink SPDIF.

I found a layman's description of Galvanic isolation - I hope it helps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_isolation

S

 

I love your idea of a layman's description

SJB

Thanks. I found the quote -  'The USB input on 2 Qute sounds slightly better than the optical - as the galvanic isolation eliminates RF' - rob watts

I've borrowed an NA1 from my dealer, Signals, for a bit of a play. A couple of minor glitches - the Melco doesn't "see" my Chord QBD76 DAC when using the latter's USB input, so I've needed to use my Luckit USB to SPDIF convertor. Then the Melco wouldn't allow me to create a folder, or import music, the latter cured by a reformat.

Anyway, I've been having a good listen and I'm pretty impressed. There's a weightiness and a more layered, cleaner sound. I'm now wondering what more the better one brings to the party. The app. seems to work well, albeit it's a generic one.

Mmm. Promising...

tonym posted:

I've borrowed an NA1 from my dealer, Signals, for a bit of a play. A couple of minor glitches - the Melco doesn't "see" my Chord QBD76 DAC when using the latter's USB input, so I've needed to use my Luckit USB to SPDIF convertor. Then the Melco wouldn't allow me to create a folder, or import music, the latter cured by a reformat.

Anyway, I've been having a good listen and I'm pretty impressed. There's a weightiness and a more layered, cleaner sound. I'm now wondering what more the better one brings to the party. The app. seems to work well, albeit it's a generic one.

Mmm. Promising...

Come on Tony - you're not supposed to actually make the effort and try one before expressing your opinion 

Shame it's not compatible directly with the QBD though.

James

james n posted:

tonym posted:

Anyway, I've been having a good listen and I'm pretty impressed. There's a weightiness and a more layered, cleaner sound. I'm now wondering what more the better one brings to the party. The app. seems to work well, albeit it's a generic one.

Mmm. Promising...

Come on Tony - you're not supposed to actually make the effort and try one before expressing your opinion 

 

Indeed that's a very dangerous precedent being set there. 

SJB

The Melco is a nice looking piece of kit, however all it provides is the NAS component (or UpNP server if you want to be picky), no audio processing is occurring on that device and it is really no different than a QNAP or Synology.. It uses Twonky and a x86 motherboard. I guess I have trouble seeing it's value proposition especially since it is still using spinning disks and is a fairly well packaged set of commodity hardware.. If your looking for lower noise I would think a SSD solution with a Synology or QNAP is the way to go. Also the lack of swappable drives seems a odd omission in something this high end. The Auralic & Aurender are different animals they are actually streamers/renderers where there is a lot of room for diferentiation 

Probably best to hear it first Dupree, don't you think. Speculation is pointless in this game.

tonym posted:

I've borrowed an NA1 from my dealer, Signals, for a bit of a play. A couple of minor glitches - the Melco doesn't "see" my Chord QBD76 DAC when using the latter's USB input, so I've needed to use my Luckit USB to SPDIF convertor. Then the Melco wouldn't allow me to create a folder, or import music, the latter cured by a reformat.

Anyway, I've been having a good listen and I'm pretty impressed. There's a weightiness and a more layered, cleaner sound. I'm now wondering what more the better one brings to the party. The app. seems to work well, albeit it's a generic one.

Mmm. Promising...

It probably works perfectly fine with a DAVE, and might even cure that bit of brightness you were experiencing.

Have N1A here playing now and also have SSD 1TB in a Synology running minimServer. The Melco does present the audio differently. I understand that it appears to be a DIY project that can save money and if I knew how to make a SL cable I would too, but this is better playback than the Synology. Why??? Don't know, but its cleaner, high frequencies are ringing longer, bass is fuller, more layers and presentation slightly up and more forward. It is adding more, but like others its just a set of drives etc etc so why is it performing nicely. Hmmm....

I'm not defending it as such adding my own views, but it is playing back my 24 & 16 bit WAV library better than the Synology for me, is it £1600 better well thats the judgement I guess. 

Mine was used so cost a lot less and I'm keeping it and prefer it, but I will admit I am a sucker for this sort of thing too.

It reminds me of HCDR plus SL speaker I tried on another system, like a little bit of both opening the taps a bit more and adding a touch of sparkle to the high end and a bit more bass. I like it but can see where the scepticism is coming from.

Allan Probin posted:

tonym posted:

I've borrowed an NA1 from my dealer, Signals, for a bit of a play. A couple of minor glitches - the Melco doesn't "see" my Chord QBD76 DAC when using the latter's USB input, so I've needed to use my Luckit USB to SPDIF convertor. Then the Melco wouldn't allow me to create a folder, or import music, the latter cured by a reformat.

Anyway, I've been having a good listen and I'm pretty impressed. There's a weightiness and a more layered, cleaner sound. I'm now wondering what more the better one brings to the party. The app. seems to work well, albeit it's a generic one.

Mmm. Promising...

It probably works perfectly fine with a DAVE, and might even cure that bit of brightness you were experiencing.

Chord used it to demonstrate the DAVE at the Whittlebury show.

Keith