Had some problems, probably fixed, but what now? (about Supernait and NacA5)

Is the harshness with the record player too, or only when you run the CD5i into the SN?

Chris

Hi Smaug, hoe is het in Nederland tegenwoordig?,  1st the Supernait should NOT run hot,  mine runs slightly warm, maybe about 5'c above ambient,  so it seems you nailed that problem with whatever it was in the speakers. 

The speakers with a 18uF cap (?) - it depends where it is in the xover.  A 2 way speaker will have a cap of approximately 18uF in only one place -  the  bass circuit will have a series inductor first & after that a capacitor,  this is a 12dB/octave low pass filter & 18uF will be very normal.     

2.5m of NAC5 is perfectly OK for the Supernait,  it is an amp that is not so sensitive to speaker cable inductance load.

................   So whats the problem ??  I would go back to those speakers again,  it is not normal to have poor soldering & as whatever you did to fix the hot amp problem inside the speakers,  it makes me suspicious they have another problem.  It does not sound to me like the quality of Sonus Faber.

Bad news you had to perform open heart surgery on the speakers to cope with understanding the situation. Let the solder job run in for a while,   Maybe scratch it and start anew !

Christopher_M posted:

Is the harshness with the record player too, or only when you run the CD5i into the SN?

Chris

I have experienced it with digital sources only, both CD5i2 and the TV/RADIO with coaxial connection trough the internal dac, as I actualy don't realy listen to vinyl that much. I havn't tried though, because I always liked the sound of my CD player better

Mike-B posted:

Hi Smaug, hoe is het in Nederland tegenwoordig?,  1st the Supernait should NOT run hot,  mine runs slightly warm, maybe about 5'c above ambient,  so it seems you nailed that problem with whatever it was in the speakers. 

The speakers with a 18uF cap (?) - it depends where it is in the xover.  A 2 way speaker will have a cap of approximately 18uF in only one place -  the  bass circuit will have a series inductor first & after that a capacitor,  this is a 12dB/octave low pass filter & 18uF will be very normal.     

2.5m of NAC5 is perfectly OK for the Supernait,  it is an amp that is not so sensitive to speaker cable inductance load.

................   So whats the problem ??  I would go back to those speakers again,  it is not normal to have poor soldering & as whatever you did to fix the hot amp problem inside the speakers,  it makes me suspicious they have another problem.  It does not sound to me like the quality of Sonus Faber.

Koud! Het "lijkt" hier wel winter.

I have had these speakers for about 4 years and have Always played them to great satisfaction with the Nait 5i2, The imaging problem I experieced could have been there before the Snait took over but with the Nait 5i2 I didn't pay attention to imaging all that much. Also, the "bad" speaker was positioned furthest away in the room so it was less aparent sitting at the kitchen table.

What was not there before was the harshness.

It's best described as an edge to the vocal area, a grainy edge to the midrange particularly aparent at recordings i have Always concidered to be realy, realy good. The live recordings on Hell Freezes Over for example.

TOBYJUG posted:

Bad news you had to perform open heart surgery on the speakers to cope with understanding the situation. Let the solder job run in for a while,   Maybe scratch it and start anew !

I honestly don't think it's the speakers for I have checked and swapped every componentent in the proces of finding a latent defect in ONE of the filters. The speaker with that filter had sound sticking to the cabinet while the other was imaging perfectly, resulting in wierd imaging best described as where one side of a center positioned singer was very contoured and the other side absent. Not joking here, I have tried to explain and have had others listen to it, but they didn't understand it at all and always blamed my absolute hearing

Resoldering both brought filters (while i was ad it) the imageing restored and treble of both speakers came back to life. Bonus, the supernait runs colder.

But the harshness stays

Can you borrow some longer Naca5 with Naim bananas on both ends?

C.

Christopher_M posted:

Can you borrow some longer Naca5 with Naim bananas on both ends?

C.

I'll try.

One more thing, I have little pops when I unmute or switch inputs on the Snait.

My supernait is quite noisy when no music is playing, a slight hiss is constanly there but this is normal I guess.

SmauG posted:

One more thing, I have little pops when I unmute or switch inputs on the Snait.

 

Me too. Mine, though, are more like little ticks. And a slight hiss is perfectly normal (in NaimWorld).

SmauG posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Can you borrow some longer Naca5 with Naim bananas on both ends?

C.

I'll try.

 

 

One more thing, I have little pops when I unmute or switch inputs on the Snait.

My supernait is quite noisy when no music is playing, a slight hiss is constanly there but this is normal I guess.

Ah, the many quirks of Naim ownership, I sure do miss it. I honestly don't think you have a speaker problem from your description, and the taking apart of your speakers and re-soldering the filters was an extreme action. From the above quote there is a definite problem with your six year old SN, personally I would have sent it off to Naim for a look see before I would have tore into my speakers, I believe what you are hearing and experiencing is more of a placebo effect that anything else.

Kind of reinforces why I never buy used.

Massimo Bertola posted:

SmauG posted:

One more thing, I have little pops when I unmute or switch inputs on the Snait.

 

Me too. Mine, though, are more like little ticks. And a slight hiss is perfectly normal (in NaimWorld).

I guess this description better fits the scenario.  (Noting like the thump i get when switching on my trusty Nait 5i2)

badlands posted:

SmauG posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Can you borrow some longer Naca5 with Naim bananas on both ends?

C.

I'll try.

 

 

One more thing, I have little pops when I unmute or switch inputs on the Snait.

My supernait is quite noisy when no music is playing, a slight hiss is constanly there but this is normal I guess.

Ah, the many quirks of Naim ownership, I sure do miss it. I honestly don't think you have a speaker problem from your description, and the taking apart of your speakers and re-soldering the filters was an extreme action. From the above quote there is a definite problem with your six year old SN, personally I would have sent it off to Naim for a look see before I would have tore into my speakers, I believe what you are hearing and experiencing is more of a placebo effect that anything else.

Kind of reinforces why I never buy used.

Yes, The taking the speakers apart was quite extreme, but í'm quite comforable with that, and my actions have been for the better. Both speakers have regained their beautifull imaging capabilities and sound alike again (trust me when I say one was WAY off). 

I guess i should explain what my first steps were, for I seriously doubted the freshly installed Supernait.

After contacting the dealer and importer, i have been invited with the Supernait to have a listen together with the technician and compare my supernait to their demo model in a controled environment. So in isolation only the Supernait was swapped in and out along the course of a morning (beiing left powered on). i a small but great system consisting of a CDX2 and Neat Momentum SX7i speakers.

While some minor but not alarming differences were notable, both Snaits perfomed in a musical engrossing way without any of the effects I experienced at home. We actualy both concluded the Snait to be functioning perfectly, and only the balance seemd somewhat off. This was fixed by putting the balance knob in the right position (!!!!!) Somewhere in its life it had been put on wrong. but that was it realy.

So, my Supernait perfomed in such a way, The technician felt was not necessary to take it to the bench for further testing/stressing or otherwise servicing. He also stated there hasn't been one recap performed on a Supernait as of yet.

So, what am I experiencing?

Has the Christmas tree and my cold in december influenced the way I hear my system?

Has my system become to transparant for the quality of digital sources I use? 

Is there any form of instability present in the system?

Smaug, What happened next?

Chris

It's like a mid season break in your favorite tv series!! 

BTW my SN is singing beautifully tonight.

Adam

Quite right. And just like a viewer of a TV series, I like a beginning, a middle and an end   :-)

C.

Agreed! How long will Smaug may keep us hanging?  

Well, I just don't know, but certain happenings have rightfully gained priority over this matter. Since then though, music has been playing and it sounds mostly fine. But every now and then on sudden peaks in volume of speach on radio or TV trough the DAC sound distorts. Also I have discovered a subtle grainy texture on vocals trough the CD player, even on decent recordings.

I guess for now I have come to peace with it. It's more a source(material) quality issue than anything else probably.

Could just be me but that's not the Happy Ever After that I hoped for   ;-)

(but it sounds like there's more important stuff going on)

C.

Hi Smaug,  first question is how is the Supernait overheat,  is that fixed ??

My Supernait DAC playing TV via an 8m optical was distorted.  I'm pretty sure the digital feed was not not suited to the SN,  no idea why.  Other digital sources into SN were just fine - a test CD player feeding via coax & optical & three different MP3's into the front panel   When I got my NDX I moved the TV optical feed to the NDX & the distortion was gone;  it confirmed my thinking that the TV signal was missing or carrying something that was not acceptable to the SN.

My SN is now connected to analogue sources,  NDX, NAT05 & Creek phono amp;    100% no distortion 

My SN is ONLY connected to digital sources and shows no distortion on any source. Foxtel (Sky) box, Blu-Ray player, Airport Express, & TV.

Christopher_M posted:

Could just be me but that's not the Happy Ever After that I hoped for   ;-)

(but it sounds like there's more important stuff going on)

C.

Very True.

Amongst other things I'm working on an important project of which I'm writing my thesis. Also, my savings have vanished when my trusty Rover K had the famous head gasket failure. I was saving for an ex-dem CDX2.2 which I have missed by this drawback.

Mike-B posted:

Hi Smaug,  first question is how is the Supernait overheat,  is that fixed ??

My Supernait DAC playing TV via an 8m optical was distorted.  I'm pretty sure the digital feed was not not suited to the SN,  no idea why.  Other digital sources into SN were just fine - a test CD player feeding via coax & optical & three different MP3's into the front panel   When I got my NDX I moved the TV optical feed to the NDX & the distortion was gone;  it confirmed my thinking that the TV signal was missing or carrying something that was not acceptable to the SN.

My SN is now connected to analogue sources,  NDX, NAT05 & Creek phono amp;    100% no distortion 

Actualy. The supernait remained cool to slighly lukewarm when playing loud. So i'm very pleased with the results of my efforts.

I use the DAC with the coaxial connection on the settopbox of my provider. Depending on the broadcast this sounds stunning or distorted in the way I described earlier. It's almost as if this sudden increase in volume input causes the DAC to overdrive the pre-amp. This happens even at moderate volume so I'm sure it is not  the poweramp which clips. (This doens't rule out the microphone or pre-amp used in the broadcast however).

The analog outputs of the CD5i2 sound fine most of the time, but a certain faint grainy quality can be heard and I'm not sure if this is the way it should be. It could actualy be a resolution thing, but again, this is an assumption.

blythe posted:

My SN is ONLY connected to digital sources and shows no distortion on any source. Foxtel (Sky) box, Blu-Ray player, Airport Express, & TV.

Any difference in connection method?

SMUG,

Following the beginning of your post here the grainy term I used in the other thread was nothing more than what one experiences in general as one moves up the Naim or any other ladder with improved more closely matched parts and superior power regulation etc. I loved the SN1 as I did my Nait3r. The Nait3r ran stone cold no matter what I threw at it...SN1 barely above tepid and the SN2 slightly warm due to the different class operating design. It's all good and looks like you have it all sorted out. I just returned from my cousins who has a Line Magnetic 518A SET tube amp with 845 tubes, 22 watts per channel...runs way hot but smooth as glass presentation with loads of PRAT.

Cheers

Dear Mackb3, Any particular reason for spelling Smug everytime you reply?

Back to the problem, for i just can't enjoy my system anymore the way i have done for the past three years (from december)

Facts:

Position of the speakers is exactly the same as ever, for they were marked on the ground, so no acoustic errors should be expected here.
The only new item in the chain is the Snait;
The NACA5 cables are a little shorter than before (3m v  around 2,5m);
The digital sources are the internal DAC (setopbox with Coax assigned to AUX, TV optical assigned to AV) and a CD5i2 to CD din Input;
Analog Source, A project TT with Stageline N conneced to Tuner DIN input;

This easter, i'm going to experiment some more trying to point out the culprit, using the Nait5i2, another source, another amp, other cabling alltogether.

Any secure 100% way to either rule out the AMP or the Speakers?

SmauG posted:

Dear Mackb3, Any particular reason for spelling Smug everytime you reply?

Back to the problem, for i just can't enjoy my system anymore the way i have done for the past three years (from december)

Facts:

Position of the speakers is exactly the same as ever, for they were marked on the ground, so no acoustic errors should be expected here.
The only new item in the chain is the Snait;
The NACA5 cables are a little shorter than before (3m v  around 2,5m);
The digital sources are the internal DAC (setopbox with Coax assigned to AUX, TV optical assigned to AV) and a CD5i2 to CD din Input;
Analog Source, A project TT with Stageline N conneced to Tuner DIN input;

This easter, i'm going to experiment some more trying to point out the culprit, using the Nait5i2, another source, another amp, other cabling alltogether.

Any secure 100% way to either rule out the AMP or the Speakers?

 

SMAUG...sorry man just read it wrong. Many apologies.

Some items listed below on the front end to optimize. Past these just trial and error with other pieces.

1. Install dedicated electrical mains.

2. Are you using a power strip or wall receptacles. If strip avoid protected like the plague.

3. Check polarity and ground and insure correct.

4. Don't have cable or satellite or cable boxes close or plugged into the same electrical circuit.

5. Insure all connections are correct and secure.

M

mackb3 posted:

SmauG posted:

........

SMAUG...sorry man just read it wrong. Many apologies.

Apologies accepted

Some items listed below on the front end to optimize. Past these just trial and error with other pieces.

1. Install dedicated electrical mains.

I have, though it's shared with TV, Setopbox and LED controller (might be something there)

2. Are you using a power strip or wall receptacles. If strip avoid protected like the plague.

I am using an Industrial grade 10fold powerstrip, rewired by myself with solid isolated copper instead of the plated strips. The Strip is directly connected to the cable of of the dedicated spur. I figgured, this is the best way to do it.

3. Check polarity and ground and insure correct.

I did when I installed everything 3,5 years ago. The Power cables of the equipment have never come out since. But i'l recheck.

4. Don't have cable or satellite or cable boxes close or plugged into the same electrical circuit.

 well........ I am sharing the strip.

5. Insure all connections are correct and secure.

I will recheck everything.

M

 

 

 

See my answers,

I have managed to get a hold of a 12m long stretch of speakercable with a similar layout as NACA5. The core though, are fine stranded.
If the problem has anything to do with the incorrect loading of the amps output, or the cable has flaws in any way this should become apparent.

Other than that, i'm goin to unplug everything except the Snait and the CD player and go from there.
With two sets of speakercable, two different style interconnects (one DIN and multiple RCA), A perfectly fine working Nait5i2, An equaly fine Marantz amp with DVD player (with optical output) and i have three different sets of speakers.

But actualy the goal is to determine if either the amp, speakers, or cabling is causing this strange, minor but undeniable flaw in the replay.

Happy easter!

Have done some extended testing today, and i'm glad to tell that "almost everything" is fine.

I have had my system with only the CD5i2, Supernait and later the Nait5i2 on a dedicated spur, everything else disconnected. All sounds great, and what should have been a search for a flaw has actualy become a showdown between the Supernait and the Nait5i2. What a lovely little, musicaly satisfying amp this is with it's joyful character and it's midrange as it's absolute partypiece. The Former obviously being superior with better and deeper botom end and a more natural high end. A more complete and mature amplifier altogether.

I said "almost everything" because one major thing I have found out when I accidentally plugged the CD player in the Tuner input is that the Supernait has a fair amount of easily audible crosstalk. 

Is it normal that I can clearly hear music playing trough the Tuner input when the CD input is selected and vice versa??? This happens at normal, dare I say, any volume level, but I noticed it when the volume was at 8:30.

Strangest thing is, the crosstalk only appears on one channel.
I.e. on the right channel when the source is connected to the CD input and Tuner input is selected, but the on the left channel when connected the other way around.
It then switches to the right again when selecting AV input.

Normaly, my Stageline N is connected to the tuner input.
If the stylus or any part of the phono chain picks up any resonance and amplifies it, thus possibly creating an oscillating loop, could this then be the cause of my problems?

I have checked, but the Nait5i2 has no crosstalk whatsoever.

My SN1 had the similar issue but can't remember which channel but was intermittent...strange. Sold off my SN1 last year.

Contacted the importer. This precieved level of crosstalk is not normal, and might be caused by a bad relay 
The Supernait goes on a trip again