Moving on from Mu-so - newbie

Skinnypuppy71 posted:

I have pmc twenty 21's with nait xs and it sounds very good.the twenty 21's are very forgiving about positioning and should be fine in your room,definitely worth an audition along with a superuniti or uniti2 as space looks as though it's at a premium in the room.

As you may have seen, I don't have a PMC dealer near. I have seen that many naim users like these units, but my location is working against me.

Hungryhalibut posted:

You could lose the CDs and put a SuperUniti or 272/200 on top of the yellow chest - the two boxes should sit side by side. So long as you could place the right hand speaker 20cm in front of the cabinet you should be fine. There is no problem in buying a used SU, even if you buy from the uk and have it shipped. I used to have an SU, and now have a 272/250, which is just so much better it's unbelievable. That was the thinking behind the 272. If you got that new, and a used 200 you'd have plenty left for some speakers. Being in Le Marche, some little Sonus Faber standmounts could work. I've not heard them - in fact the only small speakers I've heard in the past couple of years are the PMC 21s, which are really good and easy to place.

I did a fuller response earlier. Any suggestions where I can try the speakers you have suggested nearby?

Hi BLAG

Is Audio Video News in Forli within reach of you in Le Marche?  We have friends who live near Sarnano, so appreciate that Forli is a little north of you, depending where in Le Marche you live.

They are a Naim stockist and also stock a range of decent loudspeakers, sufficient for you to have some choice - KEF, Sonus Faber, Monitor Audio etc. (though not PMC)

Best regards, FT

Foot tapper posted:

Hi BLAG

Is Audio Video News in Forli within reach of you in Le Marche?  We have friends who live near Sarnano, so appreciate that Forli is a little north of you, depending where in Le Marche you live.

They are a Naim stockist and also stock a range of decent loudspeakers, sufficient for you to have some choice - KEF, Sonus Faber, Monitor Audio etc. (though not PMC)

Best regards, FT

Hi

Forli is about two-and-a-half hours from us. We're in the southern Marche, in the Province of Ascoli Piceno.

On that basis, it might be making a day of it, but if their stock situation is anything like that of the dealer I've already encountered here, it could be a long way to go for a poor outcome. I'll contact them on Tuesday. Thanks for the info. If you find a PMC dealer nearer, I'd be interested.

The only PMC dealer seems to be in Pisa. Why not book a mini break - nip though Umbria, up a bit and you are there. We have family in Trevi, just north of Spoleto, and usually fly to Ancona. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The only PMC dealer seems to be in Pisa. Why not book a mini break - nip though Umbria, up a bit and you are there. We have family in Trevi, just north of Spoleto, and usually fly to Ancona. 

Sounds so simple, but Pisa is 5 hours each way - and we have a cat that has a broken spine, and cannot use his bladder so needs to go to the animal hospital in Tolentino when I'm away from home, who seem to be the only ones with the resources to look after him. It's a two-person job, and my wife cannot manage it, so he will have to go to the hospital.

Forgive me if I sound stupid, but if the source isn't naim, how can I have any degree of certainty that the speakers will sound the same at home, because I don't want to commit to purchasing source until I know that the whole set-up will suit me? Having anything on trial at home could involve a lot of travelling, and, in any case, I doubt whether at such a distance, any organisation would extend such largesse.

Ho-hum. If only the local dealer had the resources and stock that his web site would suggest.

You can safely buy the electronics and then find speakers to suit. It is buying speakers and then finding electronics that will cause problems. Why not ask the people in Pisa if there is a way of sending the 272/200 and twenty.21s over to you. Maybe you could do a sale or return? There is always a way. 

You don't come across as stupid at all! And we have three cats that rule our lives here so I understand your problem completely.

i suspect that you could get a pretty good idea on the speakers without it having to be a Naim front end. So maybe you could borrow something else from the dealer to test the speakers with in your listening room.

best

David

Hungryhalibut posted:

You can safely buy the electronics and then find speakers to suit. It is buying speakers and then finding electronics that will cause problems. Why not ask the people in Pisa if there is a way of sending the 272/200 and twenty.21s over to you. Maybe you could do a sale or return? There is always a way. 

I'm going to slightly disagree here, which isn't a common thing with me and HH, but while I completely agree that you can buy the electronics and then worry about the speakers, I do think the speakers/room interaction is much larger than the electronics/speaker interaction and so the right speakers will be determined largely by the room not by the Naim kit which is pretty special with anything that is itself good.

best

David

Hungryhalibut posted:

You can safely buy the electronics and then find speakers to suit. It is buying speakers and then finding electronics that will cause problems. Why not ask the people in Pisa if there is a way of sending the 272/200 and twenty.21s over to you. Maybe you could do a sale or return? There is always a way. 

I am not sure that the Pisa dealer has naim kit: hence a fundamental problem.

David - quite so. What I was getting at is that if you get the electronics, you can then find speakers that work with them, and in the room. There have been lots of examples of people buying speakers, which are often power hungry, and then needing to spend massively on sources and amplification to drive them properly. You could happily get a 272/200 and run them with thirty quid speakers off eBay while searching for a longer term solution. 

David Hendon posted:

You don't come across as stupid at all! And we have three cats that rule our lives here so I understand your problem completely.

i suspect that you could get a pretty good idea on the speakers without it having to be a Naim front end. So maybe you could borrow something else from the dealer to test the speakers with in your listening room.

best

David

On the basis that if you don't ask, you don't get... I'll try.

Now. The 'local' naim dealer claims to have spendor, harbeth, proac and graham, although so far there is no evidence to support this claim. Is there anything there that I should give serious consideration, bearing in mind the space limitations. It looks as if the 272/200 combination (if bought new here) would limit my options on speakers because I have a strict budget.

Are you suggesting that I buy the naim kit first s/h or whatever, at UK prices, and then look for speakers, if necessary transporting the kit to the dealer's listening room?

Without any doubt the most important thing is to get the speaker you like that works in your room and then get the amplification that works the speaker set properly.

The source component should be of the highest quality that you can afford, but it is no good buying anplification only to find that the speakers you like best make it unsuitable.

As usual the conventional Naim Forum received wisdom needs taking with slightly more than a pinch of salt.

ATB from George

Hungryhalibut posted:

David - quite so. What I was getting at is that if you get the electronics, you can then find speakers that work with them, and in the room. There have been lots of examples of people buying speakers, which are often power hungry, and then needing to spend massively on sources and amplification to drive them properly. You could happily get a 272/200 and run them with thirty quid speakers off eBay while searching for a longer term solution. 

Now. The 'local' naim dealer claims to have spendor, harbeth, proac and graham, although so far there is no evidence to support this claim. Is there anything there that I should give serious consideration, bearing in mind the space limitations? It looks as if the 272/200 combination if bought new here would limit my options on speakers because I have a strict budget.

Are you suggesting that I buy the naim kit first s/h or whatever, at UK prices, and then look for speakers, if necessary transporting the kit to the dealer's listening room? I see the logic in  getting some cheapo speakers whilst I conduct my search: it might be the most sensible approach. Besides which, I started this quest on February 4th with the local dealer, and - so far - despite being utterly charming, he has only proposed speakers that are almost totally unsuitable (with the possible exception of the Rogers LS3/5). If I was to get the electronics, at least I would have made a start.

Food for thought and glad that I posted...

blag posted:

David Hendon posted:

You don't come across as stupid at all! And we have three cats that rule our lives here so I understand your problem completely.

i suspect that you could get a pretty good idea on the speakers without it having to be a Naim front end. So maybe you could borrow something else from the dealer to test the speakers with in your listening room.

best

David

On the basis that if you don't ask, you don't get... I'll try.

Now. The 'local' naim dealer claims to have spendor, harbeth, proac and graham, although so far there is no evidence to support this claim. Is there anything there that I should give serious consideration, bearing in mind the space limitations. It looks as if the 272/200 combination (if bought new here) would limit my options on speakers because I have a strict budget.

Are you suggesting that I buy the naim kit first s/h or whatever, at UK prices, and then look for speakers, if necessary transporting the kit to the dealer's listening room?

Of those, the Spendor D1 sounds as though it's worth looking at, as it's a sealed box. The Proac Tablette is good but rear ported, and the Harbeth P3ESR needs to work in free space. That's what's nice about the PMC - they are transmission lines, but because the hole is at the front, they will go near to the wall without booming. 

I know what George is saying, but an amplifier like the 272/200 will be fine with any of the sort of speakers you are looking at in the up to £2,000 price range. 

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Without any doubt the most important thing is to get the speaker you like that works in your room and then get the amplification that works the speaker set properly.

The source component should be of the highest quality that you can afford, but it is no good buying anplification only to find that the speakers you like best make it unsuitable.

As usual the conventional Naim Forum received wisdom needs taking with slightly more than a pinch of salt.

ATB from George

Uh. This seems to contradict most of the foregoing, and throws a spanner into the works. So, where do I start? With the speakers, with the electronics, or do I have to get the lot simultaneously? If you have been following the thread here, you will perhaps appreciate that my options appear to be quite limited, because the naim dealers don't necessarily have the speakers that seem to be most suitable. Or, are you suggesting that I should forget the naim kit?

If it's the latter that you are proposing, I'm lost, because having had naim kit in the past, having now got the mu-so and been very happy with it, I though it was a pretty good place to start from.

I suppose it's a bit like asking someone how to get to B from A, and receiving the answer, 'Well, if you want to get to B, you'd be far better off starting at C'

Start with the electronics, then find speakers you like in your room. It's the sensible way to go. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

blag posted:

David Hendon posted:

You don't come across as stupid at all! And we have three cats that rule our lives here so I understand your problem completely.

i suspect that you could get a pretty good idea on the speakers without it having to be a Naim front end. So maybe you could borrow something else from the dealer to test the speakers with in your listening room.

best

David

On the basis that if you don't ask, you don't get... I'll try.

Now. The 'local' naim dealer claims to have spendor, harbeth, proac and graham, although so far there is no evidence to support this claim. Is there anything there that I should give serious consideration, bearing in mind the space limitations. It looks as if the 272/200 combination (if bought new here) would limit my options on speakers because I have a strict budget.

Are you suggesting that I buy the naim kit first s/h or whatever, at UK prices, and then look for speakers, if necessary transporting the kit to the dealer's listening room?

Of those, the Spendor D1 sounds as though it's worth looking at, as it's a sealed box. The Proac Tablette is good but rear ported, and the Harbeth P3ESR needs to work in free space. That's what's nice about the PMC - they are transmission lines, but because the hole is at the front, they will go near to the wall without booming. 

I know what George is saying, but an amplifier like the 272/200 will be fine with any of the sort of speakers you are looking at in the up to £2,000 price range. 

Spendor D1's retail at about Euros 2.5k. I have no idea whether the dealer here has them in stock. He is saying that to get a Superuniti to test will take three working weeks, so good ness knows how long the process is going to take.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Start with the electronics, then find speakers you like in your room. It's the sensible way to go. 

I am inclined to agree with you.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Without any doubt the most important thing is to get the speaker you like that works in your room and then get the amplification that works the speaker set properly.

The source component should be of the highest quality that you can afford, but it is no good buying anplification only to find that the speakers you like best make it unsuitable.

As usual the conventional Naim Forum received wisdom needs taking with slightly more than a pinch of salt.

ATB from George

Hi

That throws a spanner in the works. I was asking how to get from A to B, and it seems as if your advice is not to start from A, but to start from C. 

blag posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Without any doubt the most important thing is to get the speaker you like that works in your room and then get the amplification that works the speaker set properly.

The source component should be of the highest quality that you can afford, but it is no good buying anplification only to find that the speakers you like best make it unsuitable.

As usual the conventional Naim Forum received wisdom needs taking with slightly more than a pinch of salt.

ATB from George

Uh. This seems to contradict most of the foregoing, and throws a spanner into the works. So, where do I start? With the speakers, with the electronics, or do I have to get the lot simultaneously? If you have been following the thread here, you will perhaps appreciate that my options appear to be quite limited, because the naim dealers don't necessarily have the speakers that seem to be most suitable. Or, are you suggesting that I should forget the naim kit?

If it's the latter that you are proposing, I'm lost, because having had naim kit in the past, having now got the mu-so and been very happy with it, I though it was a pretty good place to start from.

I suppose it's a bit like asking someone how to get to B from A, and receiving the answer, 'Well, if you want to get to B, you'd be far better off starting at C'

Firstly get the speakers you want into your room with the dealers recommended amplification. 

Then audition other suitable amplification for an informed choice. Then you stand a very fine chance of getting the system that works for you.

Trying to narrow down your choice of speaker that suits the amplification you have bought is the route to immediately finding the amplification unsuitable.

It is the cart that heeds hauling. The cart is the speaker, and the amplification is the horse that must pull the cart. The cart is the thing that is crucial. It must do the job and the amplifier is its servant. It is really simple to get this right.

ATB from George

blag posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

blag posted:

David Hendon posted:

You don't come across as stupid at all! And we have three cats that rule our lives here so I understand your problem completely.

i suspect that you could get a pretty good idea on the speakers without it having to be a Naim front end. So maybe you could borrow something else from the dealer to test the speakers with in your listening room.

best

David

On the basis that if you don't ask, you don't get... I'll try.

Now. The 'local' naim dealer claims to have spendor, harbeth, proac and graham, although so far there is no evidence to support this claim. Is there anything there that I should give serious consideration, bearing in mind the space limitations. It looks as if the 272/200 combination (if bought new here) would limit my options on speakers because I have a strict budget.

Are you suggesting that I buy the naim kit first s/h or whatever, at UK prices, and then look for speakers, if necessary transporting the kit to the dealer's listening room?

Of those, the Spendor D1 sounds as though it's worth looking at, as it's a sealed box. The Proac Tablette is good but rear ported, and the Harbeth P3ESR needs to work in free space. That's what's nice about the PMC - they are transmission lines, but because the hole is at the front, they will go near to the wall without booming. 

I know what George is saying, but an amplifier like the 272/200 will be fine with any of the sort of speakers you are looking at in the up to £2,000 price range. 

Spendor D1's retail at about Euros 2.5k. I have no idea whether the dealer here has them in stock. He is saying that to get a Superuniti to test will take three working weeks, so good ness knows how long the process is going to take.

I realise that my choices are severely restricted by the constraints of the environment, and I know that lots of speakers are offered 'paired' with naim components, but my quest is to find speakers that will provide me with the sound - and this may be near-heresy to purists - that I like and get from my mu-so. I started this post in the hope that I was not alone, and that someone out there had made the same progression as I am looking for. Please don't take this as a criticism of your suggestions and recommendations. For example, I had heard good reviews of the B & W standmounts that the dealer demo'd, and I agreed with the dealer that they have a BIG soundstage, and the stereo image was very precise, but I found them - difficult to put in words - 'forward', and harsher than the mu-so. The fact that they are not suitable for the room didn't help, either. Obviously my ears are my ears, and one man's speaker is another man's noise, but I hope that you will appreciate that I don't want to spend hours and hours travelling to test speakers that are really not like the mu-so sound.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

blag posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Without any doubt the most important thing is to get the speaker you like that works in your room and then get the amplification that works the speaker set properly.

The source component should be of the highest quality that you can afford, but it is no good buying anplification only to find that the speakers you like best make it unsuitable.

As usual the conventional Naim Forum received wisdom needs taking with slightly more than a pinch of salt.

ATB from George

Uh. This seems to contradict most of the foregoing, and throws a spanner into the works. So, where do I start? With the speakers, with the electronics, or do I have to get the lot simultaneously? If you have been following the thread here, you will perhaps appreciate that my options appear to be quite limited, because the naim dealers don't necessarily have the speakers that seem to be most suitable. Or, are you suggesting that I should forget the naim kit?

If it's the latter that you are proposing, I'm lost, because having had naim kit in the past, having now got the mu-so and been very happy with it, I though it was a pretty good place to start from.

I suppose it's a bit like asking someone how to get to B from A, and receiving the answer, 'Well, if you want to get to B, you'd be far better off starting at C'

Firstly get the speakers you want into your room with the dealers recommended amplification. 

Then audition other suitable amplification for an informed choice. Then you stand a very fine chance of getting the system that works for you.

Trying to narrow down your choice of speaker that suits the amplification you have bought is the route to immediately finding the amplification unsuitable.

It is the cart that heeds hauling. The cart is the speaker, and the amplification is the horse that must pull the cart. The cart is the thing that is crucial. It must do the job and the amplifier is its servant. It is really simple to get this right.

ATB from George

I see the point that you are making. So, do you have any suggestions of speakers that sound similar to the mu-so and would work within the environment that I have described?

The dealer here seems to be offering me what he has got, irrespective of their suitability. I understand his approach - until he has me in the listening room he has no idea of how discerning my aural pallette is, and hopefully, he will adjust his thinking now that he knows  more about my preferences.

Maybe I need to kick him in to touch and find someone who can respond - in a way, that is way I have decided to post here!

There is no substitute for listening to many auditions of good loudspeakers firstly at dealers. Make yourself a nuisance. Make a choice, and allow the dealer to bring them to your house with suitable amplification. Listen - like or not. Do this more than once. 

Then optimise the amplification.

Otherwise you are stuck with what someone else thinks is best for them, and may very well not be best for you.

Only speaking as an old fart who has been round the round-about more than once to find optimal replay.

I will add that this work will save you a lot of money as well, as the most expensive replay is not always what you might prefer.

The most expensive speakers are so often eccentric and exaggerated, while more modest ones are more real world replay of a type this easily driven [cheaper amplifier] and actually more balanced.

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Without any doubt the most important thing is to get the speaker you like that works in your room and then get the amplification that works the speaker set properly.

The source component should be of the highest quality that you can afford, but it is no good buying anplification only to find that the speakers you like best make it unsuitable.

As usual the conventional Naim Forum received wisdom needs taking with slightly more than a pinch of salt.

ATB from George

I agree. Get the speakers that work optimally in your room, then get the amp that drives them well. I guess  typically the preamp can work with most amp/speaker combos - although there are a few exception imo such as the 202/250.

I have found the speaker the most challenging to get right - but boy when its right it makes a world of difference. The electronics are far easier, although not all amps are happy with all speakers. I find infinite baffle designs are more sensitive than many designs on their amp - but match them to their optimum amp and they sing, punch and time wonderfully.

Simon