ovators (S-400, 600, 800) production stopped

Wow! 123 replies and still going strong, don't you think for one minute that Focal/Naim isn't tuned in.

I'm quite sure, someone in charge will have Mr. Richard Dane confirm, the inevitable. But more important, which direction the company is headed as it relates to Active Speakers!

It only seems reasonable, that they would pick up where Naim left off. 

The Forum is Speaking loud and clear!!!!!!!

No need to bash the Ovators, the sales just weren't there!  I wouldn't be surprised if we seen Active Sopras or Scala's! 

Allante93!

I have owned my cherry Allaes since new probably 12/13 years old now, love them perfect for my British living room and the only change I will make is to a pair cherry SL2, dammmmm just missed a pair on PF 

james n posted:

If they move production East, they would be able to produce more product and increase profits, which when you are owned by an investment company profit IS the bottom line.

 

Surely that would be commercial suicide. Part of the appeal of a Naim product is that it's hand built in the UK. Take that away and you'd lose a lot of what Naim is as a brand. 

I honestly don't think that is true any longer. The sad fact that in todays world profit rules, and IS the bottom line. Just look at how the Muso line of products has expanded, and been accepted by traditional Naim owners and the members of this forum. Also it's universal appeal to what was once non Naim buyers because of it's affordability.  That mostly is due to it being manufactured in China, and also the Naim logo. Sentimental ideals are a thing of the past, business is business.

HiFiman posted:

I have owned my cherry Allaes since new probably 12/13 years old now, love them perfect for my British living room and the only change I will make is to a pair cherry SL2, dammmmm just missed a pair on PF 

You gotta be quick - they sold in an hour. 

Allante93 posted:

Wow! 123 replies and still going strong, don't you think for one minute that Focal/Naim isn't tuned in.

I'm quite sure, someone in charge will have Mr. Richard Dane confirm, the inevitable. But more important, which direction the company is headed as it relates to Active Speakers!

It only seems reasonable, that they would pick up where Naim left off. 

The Forum is Speaking loud and clear!!!!!!!

No need to bash the Ovators, the sales just weren't there!  I wouldn't be surprised if we seen Active Sopras or Scala's! 

Allante93!

Think you maybe right. My S400s were the only pair the local dealer stocked and had them for 2 years. They went on one demo, I bought them for a steal as pretty much new, they just weren't pushing them.

They explained the run-in and nurturing wasn't conducive to the regular punter. I also feel the dealer needs to want to sell the product in the case of speakers like the Ovators, if they believe then it does come across I feel.

Imagine trying to explain the Ovators to someone new to HiFi at that end, those who know would have probably made their mind up by the time of purchase. Possibly.....

badlands posted:

james n posted:

If they move production East, they would be able to produce more product and increase profits, which when you are owned by an investment company profit IS the bottom line.

 

Surely that would be commercial suicide. Part of the appeal of a Naim product is that it's hand built in the UK. Take that away and you'd lose a lot of what Naim is as a brand. 

I honestly don't think that is true any longer. The sad fact that in todays world profit rules, and IS the bottom line. Just look at how the Muso line of products has expanded, and been accepted by traditional Naim owners and the members of this forum. Also it's universal appeal to what was once non Naim buyers because of it's affordability.  That mostly is due to it being manufactured in China, and also the Naim logo. Sentimental ideals are a thing of the past, business is business.

The Muso is a cheap / high volume product though - not traditional Naim by any means. I doubt you'd get many stumping up for 500 series if it was made in China. Naim isn't for me anymore but apart from the Muso type products i wouldn't touch anything else in the range if it was made in China. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

HiFiman posted:

I have owned my cherry Allaes since new probably 12/13 years old now, love them perfect for my British living room and the only change I will make is to a pair cherry SL2, dammmmm just missed a pair on PF 

You gotta be quick - they sold in an hour. 

Yep, I guess it's just luck - guess I will have to slum it a while longer with the Allaes 

Allante93 posted:

The new Naim Sound comes at a Price!

A Dred front and rear end, with a capable source.

Followed by the Full Loom! 

Statement of course!

552/252/282/272

500/300/250,  the 200 doesn't 009 etc...

On the low end! All Dred

 Ndx/Xps/272/250 = 4 Box + Loom

Loom = Source IC/XLR IC/ Speaker Cable

 Don't fool yourself Mega Bucks, just ask HH!

"The V2 Scalas were developed after the merger with Naim, so I'm told are voiced to match Naim electronics. I've never heard the V1s so can't really comment further."

The above quote was taken from a post going on this very moment! But the important thing to note, not if it is valid or not, but the group represented by Individuals like Mr X.

The aforemention group above, is the very essence which drives the Firm!

Surely Focal wouldn't neglect the heartbeat of Naim!

Don't worry I'm sure Richard will respond soon!

This is Breaking News!

Allante93!

Darke Bear posted:

robert- posted:

Is it official. 

The lack of any comment on this thread from Naim would encourage the view it is.

Personally I'd be a bit sad if true, but pleased I got what I wanted while it was available.
Joining the many owning discontinued Naim speakers is no big deal for me, but sad for those that may have wanted the future choice.

DB.

You have a real rarity (and good investment) to treasure and enjoy, Gary. There must be only a handful of pairs of 800's out there.

John.

Well, I can't make any official comment for Naim, but I'd imagine that being part of the same group as one of the worlds largest speaker makers , who also happen to do a comprehensive line in proper hifi speakers from budget boxes right up to the highest of the high end, would perhaps have a profound influence on Naim's decision as to whether to continue developing and manufacturing their own speakers.

Hook posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

A question for those who have the Ovators : What is it that they do well in comparison to other brands (or types) of speakers ?

Any downsides ?

Hi Jan-Erik -

Back in the summer of 2011, I home demoed about a dozen speakers for my small (9.5'x12.5') listening room.  All posed challenges, but getting the 400s to sound good was pretty straight forward. I liked that they did not require a huge amount of back and side wall clearance, but it did take some time and patience to get the absolute best sound out of them. Small changes in position, and slight adjustments to toe-in were audible. But, in the end, locating their sweet spot was well worth the effort.

I think the 400's are relatively neutral, and ever slightly rolled off at both ends. In my view, this helps make them easy to listen to for longer periods of time. Also, being a sealed box helps them to be less likely to overwhelm smaller rooms with booming bass. But perhaps best of all (and not unlike my ESL 57's), the 400s deliver a very natural, cohesive sound. I have always assumed that this was attributable to the BMR driver eliminating the need for a crossover where our ears are most sensitive to it.

When I did my home demos, I eliminated from consideration a number of floorstanders because I was always aware of sound coming from the cabinets, ports, or from individual drivers. By contrast, the 400s did the "disappearing act" with ease.

We all know that speaker selection is a very personal. Our ears, brains, rooms and supporting electronics are all different. I feel very fortunate that the 400s were such a good fit for me. They erased my upgrade itch, and have given me many hours of great music. Even if Naim is exiting the Ovator business, I hope they will either build something new, or at least continue to influence Focal's new product development.

ATB.

Hook

Hi Hook,

Thanks for the detailed reply. That a speaker can erase an upgrade itch is no mean feat. Once you've heard what a (well-designed) speaker without a crossover between the midrange and the treble can do, it can be difficult to return to anything else. This type of speaker will generally present a certain accent, that may or may not agree with the ear. Once past that though, the rewards are clear, a directness and coherence that are addictive. While the Ovators are not my cup of tea, they are a very intriguing design.

Jan

It would be interesting to see if someone could supply a list of dealers that stock both Naim and Focal also are Naim going to update the details of their suggested systems to include a  Focal equivalent to the Naim speakers as recommended? 

badlands poste

The introduction of the Muso would seem to dispute that.

 If a NAP 300 could be made to the exact same standards for less and sell for the same money because it has the Naim logo on it, and you are able to make two to three times as many per year, that would be a hard reality to ignore.

Relocating manufacture to Far East would be a big big mistake

What about if high end brands like Ferrari, Aston or Mc Laren were manufactured in China ? what do you

think would be their customer reaction ?

Regards

Roberto

J.N. posted:

Darke Bear posted:

robert- posted:

Is it official. 

The lack of any comment on this thread from Naim would encourage the view it is.

Personally I'd be a bit sad if true, but pleased I got what I wanted while it was available.
Joining the many owning discontinued Naim speakers is no big deal for me, but sad for those that may have wanted the future choice.

DB.

You have a real rarity (and good investment) to treasure and enjoy, Gary. There must be only a handful of pairs of 800's out there.

John.

I' ve been told by my dealer that at least 3 pairs of S800 were sold in Italy, in a slow and depressed

market  like this i think it was a success.

Regards

Roberto

The R&D that went into the S800 Design and flat-panel Bass Drivers and improved BMR Unit - including the Active Crossover 'floaty' Snaxo for it cannot have been recouped I would  have thought.

The market is not for Active systems it seems, for very understandable reasons in terms of complexity and number of boxes required to do it properly. The newer versions of the Focals I liked a lot more than the ones I heard just when Naim joined with the company, so there is hope. Personally I like the 'non-traditional speaker'  signature the Ovators brought along and while realizing that was not for everyone's taste, it was good to have the option for those that liked it. The end-to-end design concept of the Naim system will be differently expressed with the present and future Focals.

DB.

I think in the grand scheme of things Focal & Naim users are a small minority just like Naim & Naim speaker users.

Cool, my gloss white S-400's have just become collector's items.

Allante93 posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I directly asked the question to naim representative at the Bristol show, the Ovator range will be going out of production, it's all about focal now...

When the merger was announced, Active Fans like myself, was concerned about the future of Naim Active Systems.

Articles was popping up like dandelions:

""Currently I think that only Linn and Naim promote active technology in the domestic hifi market, although it is common in pa/concert rigs. It will be interesting to watch developments as to whether the Focal/Naim merger leads to more or less active systems?

This very specialised expertise means that in practice few people will ever own an active system, even thought the rewards are great.""

""It's a good buy for Focal. Focal has mostly loudspeaker experience but they also have powered speakers and automotive amplifiers. Naim is skilled at making compact, clean amplifiers and digital gear, so they can help further develop the amplifiers used in the Focal lines. Focal also produces powered subwoofers of course and all need amp modules, so having a top quality source is a good thing. They also push the envelope with regard to state of the art loudspeaker innovations and we might find an active x-over or powered woofer, etc in use in their home loudspeakers as well as pro monitors. Further, it gives Focal a strong presence in the UK...""

Is the Glass half empty, or half  full!  

Time will Tell !

I for one would sure like to see Active Sopra’s or Scala’s V2!

Allante93!

Ok, most of us seen this coming, but what about us Active fans?

I would take a guess, and say since the Merger Focal Speakers sales have picked up.

Active Sopra's, and Active Scalas's.

That's all we ask of you!

Long Live Focal!

Time will tell!!!!

Allante93!

Well Let's hope Focal will start producing closed speakers ??? I know it is a dream.... So Naim will sound french now...

I watched the development of the Ovator range closely, and was one of the very first S600 owners. They are indeed rather special loudspeakers that certainly brought me closer to my music. I have also posted on several occasions that I don't like Focal speakers; too glassy, metallic and 'hi fi' sounding. Yet, here I am with a pair of Scala Utopia V2s in my living room and loving every second of it... so what changed?

2 things really: 1 - Naim and Focal merged, and it's pretty obvious to me that the combined teams have been working together to leverage their respective strengths and make some rather special new products, and 2 - I listened to them in my own room rather than the typically awful rooms at hi fi shows.

I have no idea whether active Sopras or Scalas will ever emerge - depends on market demand I guess, but the latest passive combinations are breathtaking.

Dave.

DaveBk posted:

I watched the development of the Ovator range closely, and was one of the very first S600 owners. They are indeed rather special loudspeakers that certainly brought me closer to my music. I have also posted on several occasions that I don't like Focal speakers; too glassy, metallic and 'hi fi' sounding. Yet, here I am with a pair of Scala Utopia V2s in my living room and loving every second of it... so what changed?

2 things really: 1 - Naim and Focal merged, and it's pretty obvious to me that the combined teams have been working together to leverage their respective strengths and make some rather special new products, and 2 - I listened to them in my own room rather than the typically awful rooms at hi fi shows.

I have no idea whether active Sopras or Scalas will ever emerge - depends on market demand I guess, but the latest passive combinations are breathtaking.

Dave.

 

 

""The V2 Scalas were developed after the merger with Naim, so I'm told are voiced to match Naim electronics. I've never heard the V1s so can't really reply""

Thanks for tuning in Dave!

Allante93!

Last night I was Roberto's guest for a musical evening, and the experience of his system – plus the return to mine, this evening – has suggested me a simple thought, that I'm finding more and more true as hours go by.

I realised that the spectacular sound I enjoyed there – tailored on Roberto's soul, as is for each of us I believe – would have been possible with different electronics if chosen carefully, but not with other speakers. I realised that it's not CD players or amps that makes Naim's own signature voice, but their loudspeakers, and that their loudspeakers have been their really groundbreaking designs, the proof of their claimed engineering vocation. All of their loudspeaker designs, from SBLs to n-Sats to, to a lesser degree, Ovators, have been innovative and truly defying the market commonplaces; while their electronics only pursued a certain sound along paths walked already perhaps. It's always been their loudspeakers, not their electronics, drawing a sharp line between friends and enemies: it's enough to go to PFM to see it.

The principle of mechanical suppression of interfering vibrations is evident in the wobbly sockets of amps and in the complex design of the preamps' boards, but it's the very chore and soul of the design of close to all their loudspeakers. I feel that abandoning speakers Naim is really abandoning its true soul, strange as this may seem; I understand this may sound silly speaking of a company famous for CDPs and amps, but I fear that this is the truth, and it will become evident in time.

I would not worry too much about a mass shift to Far East manufacturing. Above a certain level of attention to detail and human (not machine) skill, factories in China still fall way behind. We are not quite bombarded but get a steady stream of the latest manufacturing scandals here to know that you need to pick what you offshore carefully. Plus there are the constant bribes needed to get anything done there and the political environment. You need have a production line that can easily be removed and plugged in to some other country on short notice, and that might fit Muso but the Naim black boxes would be very unlikely to be shifted there.

Having lived almost my entire adult life in the Far East, I can confirm that even large Japanese manufacturers that own their own sites in China and South Asia employing thousands of staff, still manufacture products above a certain level locally in Japan where the process can be better controlled. Pioneer, Denon, Marantz etc. all do their mid to upper ranges in Japan and those ranges are generally still lower than Naim entry level. And this despite the considerably lower shipping costs due to the proximity of these lower cost neighbors.

So I would caution against seeing the discontinuation of Ovators as a sinister portent of a "New Naim" and merely a sensible business decision. I doubt that the decision would be completely revenue related too. After all, if it was all about profit, then mid-hi end hifi is NOT the industry to be in and never has. My guess would be more about whether it was actually costing them money or opportunity to work on other exciting things rather than merely not being profitable enough.

Massimo, I see the logic in your post, but I differ with your conclusion. Certainly Naim speakers are the leading (bleeding to some) edge of Naim's "sound", but not the core. Surely ?

Steve Crowe · August 19, 2011

"""Will the two R&D/design teams stay separate?

R&D is an area where we can pool our efforts to create something which is better than the sum of its parts. Both brands have outstanding R&D teams, which will continue to work as separate teams – with joint technology groups set up to look at big picture projects.

Any concerns about diluting the quality of the Naim/Focal brand/losing customers?

No. We are committed to running the two brands independently, so there will be no change to the customer’s experience of either brand.

What would you say to the loyalists of the brands who are concerned that their beloved brand will change?

I would assure them that we would do nothing to damage the unique qualities of either brand and we are committed to proving that to them over the coming months and years."""

Time will tell!

Allante93!