Netflix and Naim streamer conflict
Posted by: Pezetas on 07 March 2016
Hi,
I have come across something very strange, and I can't seem to find any explanation to it wherever I look. So I thought I'd post here and see if anyone has had any similar experience.
To give some background I have a fiber connection 100/10Mbps. To start with there is a CPE switch supplied by the operator of the net. This device it standard and makes sure I get an IP-signal. I have a Apple airport extreme router connected to this and this is set to distribute wireless signals to iPad, iPhone, a few computers in my home. Connected via cable from this router (airport extreme) is also my Naim NAC-N 172 XS streamer. Also connected via cable to the router is my Synology NAS with ripped music.
I have been using this setup for a couple of years and everything has been working just fine.
Now to the problem. Every time I start the Netflix app on either my iPhone 6 or the iPad it shuts down the connection of my Naim streamer. It doesn't matter if I'm listening to local music on my NAS or Radio or Tidal. I just shuts down instantly when I start the app, even though I'm not even streaming any movie yet. And it only happens with IOS devices. If I go to Netflix on my macbook pro or any other computer I can watch movies and still listen to music on the Naim streamer. There is some sort of conflict there. No other app on my IOS devices causes this behavior, I even have other video streaming services like Viaplay (viasat player) and that works fine.
I tried calling Netflix support although I knew that would be a long shot. No help there, they thought there was something with the apple router so their advice was to call Apple support. I have tried with another Apple Time Capsule, which is basically a similar router but with a backup hard drive included in it. Same thing! I'm guessing there must be some setting that I'm not familiar with in the router.
Lately I've been using TIDAL straight on the streamer a lot and I like it very much. Until someone in the household starts looking at a movie on Netflix. As a workaround I then fire up my Mac mini that is connected to the streamer and I play Tidal on that computer through Naim instead. The mac mini does not shut down if someone else on the network is watching Netflix. But it's more convenient using the onboard Tidal service in the Naim streamer of course.
I have tried connecting the Naim streamer both wireless and as I usually have it, wired.
Any suggestions are most welcome. :-)
Regards,
Per
Harty601, Malware is a term or was a term we used describe any software whether intentionally or unintentionally that produced an undesirable outcome without the user necessarily knowing or being aware of this.
Simon
Weegie, there is a problem with the Netflix app on both Panasonic and LG televisions where Netflix always defaults to outputting Dolby+ regardless of your TV settings, which is not able to be decoded by the mu-so. My understanding is that you can change the output to PCM, however that only works on the movie/tv show being played, and the next clip played will be Dolby+ again. Your previous soundbar could most likely decode Dolby+ as it was a true soundbar, hence why Naim don't market the mu-so as one.
An Apple TV device may be a good work around, as that can be forced to output PCM through HDMI.
Or, using an external DAC ( I believe Gefen make a good one) and an RCA to 3.5mm cable, however I feel that this would be an uglier workaround.
J Saville posted:Weegie, there is a problem with the Netflix app on both Panasonic and LG televisions where Netflix always defaults to outputting Dolby+ regardless of your TV settings, which is not able to be decoded by the mu-so. My understanding is that you can change the output to PCM, however that only works on the movie/tv show being played, and the next clip played will be Dolby+ again. Your previous soundbar could most likely decode Dolby+ as it was a true soundbar, hence why Naim don't market the mu-so as one.
An Apple TV device may be a good work around, as that can be forced to output PCM through HDMI.
Or, using an external DAC ( I believe Gefen make a good one) and an RCA to 3.5mm cable, however I feel that this would be an uglier workaround.
And, intriguingly, Netflix on the Apple TV (3) does not conflict with the Mu-so! At least when connected to the network via ethernet.
I know this because I have the Apple TV Airplay settings to play audio through the Mu-so I am using with the TV. Netflix play fine and does not affect my other Mu-so or Qb. The Airplay route only kicks in once a show starts to play. I have the analogue out from my TV connected to the Mu-so for ordinary listening, partly because of the compression problems but to my ears the Airplay option gives a much better result than taking the digital output, from my Sony TV at least.
There is a direct digital audio output from the Apple TV 3 (not the current 4) but I do not use this because of lip-sync problems and also because using the TV output takes care of switching the TV HDMI input between the Apple TV and the Human PVR.
Weegie, is your TV connected over Wi-Fi or ethernet to your network?
Roger
Kevin Richardson posted:I am really hoping Naim will take an active role in determining the cause of this problem. I imagine it could be fairly easy to analyze network traffic to locate the interference. I imagine Naim has a test lab already available to debug / troubleshoot their streamers as part of their ongoing R&D.
Hi Guys,
We have already (several weeks ago) been in contact with Netflix regarding this issue ... We have provided them with information as to what it is that they are doing 'wrong' (they are sending a malformed SSDP packet), they have assigned it a support ticket so they are aware of this issue and they have stated to us (in writing) that it will be looked into however they would not commit to a time to fix.
In the meantime we have been looking into implementing a filter in our own codebase to trap that specific instance which will hopefully be a part of the next code release however we really don't like this as it's something that we shouldn't be having to trap and of course could have implications further down the line which we need to be aware of.
Cheers
Phil
Thanks Phil, very much appreciate the effort you and the guys put into making the software what it is and very frustrating that something that has always been very stable is being so badly affected by a third party.
I will threaten Netflix with cancelling my subscription - I'm sure that will put the fear of God up them 
Thanks Phil.
G
Hi Phil, thanks for your addition to this topic! Really appreciate the openness from Naim on this issue and hope you'll keep us updated the coming weeks on the progress.
Kind regards,
Peter
Phil Harris posted:Kevin Richardson posted:I am really hoping Naim will take an active role in determining the cause of this problem. I imagine it could be fairly easy to analyze network traffic to locate the interference. I imagine Naim has a test lab already available to debug / troubleshoot their streamers as part of their ongoing R&D.
Hi Guys,
We have already (several weeks ago) been in contact with Netflix regarding this issue ... We have provided them with information as to what it is that they are doing 'wrong' (they are sending a malformed SSDP packet), they have assigned it a support ticket so they are aware of this issue and they have stated to us (in writing) that it will be looked into however they would not commit to a time to fix.
In the meantime we have been looking into implementing a filter in our own codebase to trap that specific instance which will hopefully be a part of the next code release however we really don't like this as it's something that we shouldn't be having to trap and of course could have implications further down the line which we need to be aware of.
Cheers
Phil
Phil -
Thank you for this additional information. I suspect this "malformed SSDP packet" is related to Netflix's new: Discovery And Launch protocol [DIAL] which is built on top of SSDP. [Designed to allow Netflix to display on a second screen controlled by the iOS app] Has anybody confirmed that the same issues exist with the Android Netflix app?
Phil - thanks I thought it was probably Simple Service Discovery Protocol related in reading the various posts and I suspect on the multicast group address 239.255.255.250 which of course if malformed will splat over UPnP discovery... and I would have thought AirPlay.. and anything else using SSDP which is very common - especially within the 'Internet of Things' type apps
My son very thoughtfully has set us up with Netflix via the Chromecast widget and controlled via the Netflix app on my wife's iPad. I am sure you can guess what I am going to say next. Each time she goes onto Netflix my NDS loses its connection. Very annoying.
Does anyone have an update on a fix for this?
Phil, I can quite understand Naim not wishing to mess with its own software to fix an issue generated by a third party. Any news from Netflix yet on a fix?
I am currently watching a movie on Netflix streaming from an Apple TV box and getting the audio on my muso. The Apple TV box is hard wired via an Ethernet connection and an HDMI to the TV. Just thought I'd pass this along.
My understanding is that it is particularly the Netflix app on iOS devices affecting Naim Streamers but it could be more prevalent than this.
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:I agree with Aleg, in fact I did suggest to one member on this forum that they report to Apple .. I wonder if they did and what the response was.
from what I hear this problem is far from specific to Naim and sounds potentially dangerous by damaging or corrupting other home applications on the network.
In a commercial (non domestic ) environment the Netflex app would be almost certainly banned until Netflex isolated the issue.. including working with affected parties.. But in the domestic environment anything appears to go.. Quite shocking really.. If a web malware infected or corrupted my computer I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of my computer.. I would blame the user for not being vigilant and using the suspect software until it was remedied.
Certainly all Netflex apps banned in SinS towers until Netflex resolve or provide a clear usage advisory and I strongly advise members of this forum to do the same... Or if not use the Netflix app purely at their own risk. Naim audio replay is one of the least of my concerns...I take errant software seriously, I know the damage it can cause... I suspect this is some kind of buggy promiscuous layer two discovery or multicast implementation on the Netflex app. With the Internet of things and more devices being controlled using network access this situation could possibly be even dangerous in some circumstances.
Simon.
Hi Simon,
As you will see above I am now suffering from the dreaded Netflix app bug. Your above reply earlier in this thread indicated that you feel this problem could be potentially dangerous and you have clearly banished the Netflix app. Are you still of the opinion that this app could endanger other devices including Naim streamers? If you still recommend removing the Netflix app, is there another way of controlling Netflix on a non-smart TV so I can remove the app from my house? Apologies, this last question is not really one for you but I thought you might know as you have removed the Netflix app from your household.
I can watch Netflix through Apple TV on our Panny plasma with no problems. It's only when the kids watch it on their iPads that nstream stalls.
G
Nigel, regard to actually being dangerous its a hard to one shout with what I have read on this forum recently - it perhaps is somewhat unlikely - but it appears it is being promiscuous with it discovery protocol use and inappropriately sending data in malformed packets to unsuspecting hosts. This is not good.. either way it going to invite instability to anything on your home network that uses these standard discovery methods.
Simon
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:Nigel, regard to actually being dangerous its a hard to one shout with what I have read on this forum recently - it perhaps is somewhat unlikely - but it appears it is being promiscuous with it discovery protocol use and inappropriately sending data in malformed packets to unsuspecting hosts. This is not good.. either way it going to invite instability to anything on your home network that uses these standard discovery methods.
Simon
Simon, thanks for the reply. I have decided to get the wife a smart TV (the old one she was using in the bedroom was too small anyway) which will have access to Netflix without the need for a separate Netflix iOS device remote control. For the main TV I am going to buy an Amazon Fire Stick dongle which again has access to Netflix with its own remote and again no need to use the Netflix iOS device control app. This way I can remove the Netflix iOS app from my household which I assume will solve the problem. Is this correct?
as a workaround, can you not simply use the (safari) browser to watch netflix on your ipads?
I have a Panasonic smart tv with the Netflix app included but this method of connection still does not give audio to the muso using the optical connection. My only method of successful connection thus far is to use an Apple TV box. This works with no audio loss to the muso.
Weegie posted:I have a Panasonic smart tv with the Netflix app included but this method of connection still does not give audio to the muso using the optical connection. My only method of successful connection thus far is to use an Apple TV box. This works with no audio loss to the muso.
Bugger!
nigelb posted:Weegie posted:I have a Panasonic smart tv with the Netflix app included but this method of connection still does not give audio to the muso using the optical connection. My only method of successful connection thus far is to use an Apple TV box. This works with no audio loss to the muso.
Bugger!
Please all be aware that this is not the issue that this topic was started to discuss which is the bug in the Netflix iOS App that causes Naim Streamers to become unavailable over the network (the best suggestion to work around this for those actually wanting to watch Netflix on an iPad without disrupting their streamer is Timster's - just log in to your Netflix account from the Safari browser).
The most likely explanation of getting no sound with digital input from TV to a Mu-so is given by Phil Harris in his featured topic on this forum: The mu-so - in common with our other streamers - does not have any form of multi-channel audio decoding and so expects a regular PCM stereo audio input. If fed with bitstream Dolby Digital or DTS then the unit will either output 'noise' or will be silent.
Apparently some Panasonic TVs, and possibly others, only switch to PCM on a per video basis.
In an attempt to reduce the confusion being caused by discussing two different issues on one thread, I have taken the liberty of copying this note under a new topic on the Hi-Fi Forum. It has nothing directly to do with streaming.
I suggest people affected by this follow-up there. I hope you do not mind Weegie!
Roger
noname posted:nigelb posted:Weegie posted:I have a Panasonic smart tv with the Netflix app included but this method of connection still does not give audio to the muso using the optical connection. My only method of successful connection thus far is to use an Apple TV box. This works with no audio loss to the muso.
Bugger!
Please all be aware that this is not the issue that this topic was started to discuss which is the bug in the Netflix iOS App that causes Naim Streamers to become unavailable over the network (the best suggestion to work around this for those actually wanting to watch Netflix on an iPad without disrupting their streamer is Timster's - just log in to your Netflix account from the Safari browser).
The most likely explanation of getting no sound with digital input from TV to a Mu-so is given by Phil Harris in his featured topic on this forum: The mu-so - in common with our other streamers - does not have any form of multi-channel audio decoding and so expects a regular PCM stereo audio input. If fed with bitstream Dolby Digital or DTS then the unit will either output 'noise' or will be silent.
Apparently some Panasonic TVs, and possibly others, only switch to PCM on a per video basis.
In an attempt to reduce the confusion being caused by discussing two different issues on one thread, I have taken the liberty of copying this note under a new topic on the Hi-Fi Forum. It has nothing directly to do with streaming.
I suggest people affected by this follow-up there. I hope you do not mind Weegie!
Roger
Roger, thanks for the clarification. Yes I am only interested in the original topic of this thread, namely the Netflix iOS app for iOS devices causing Naim streamers (not the Mu-so) to loose their connection. I do not want to watch Netflix on my iPad, I just want to use the iPad as a remote control for Netflix using the Netflix iOS app to watch Netflix on a normal TV (or rather the wife does while I listen to my Naim NDS). Clearly though this is the cause of the issue. I was hoping that the introduction of a smart TV (with Netflix installed - no need for the iOS app) and the introduction of Amazon Fire Stick dongle on our existing non-smart (stupid?) TV (again negating the need for the Netflix iOS control app) would solve my problem as we can then remove all the Netflix iOS control apps from our iPads. Do you think this will solve my problem?
nigelb posted:noname posted:nigelb posted:Weegie posted:I have a Panasonic smart tv with the Netflix app included but this method of connection still does not give audio to the muso using the optical connection. My only method of successful connection thus far is to use an Apple TV box. This works with no audio loss to the muso.
Bugger!
Please all be aware that this is not the issue that this topic was started to discuss which is the bug in the Netflix iOS App that causes Naim Streamers to become unavailable over the network (the best suggestion to work around this for those actually wanting to watch Netflix on an iPad without disrupting their streamer is Timster's - just log in to your Netflix account from the Safari browser).
The most likely explanation of getting no sound with digital input from TV to a Mu-so is given by Phil Harris in his featured topic on this forum: The mu-so - in common with our other streamers - does not have any form of multi-channel audio decoding and so expects a regular PCM stereo audio input. If fed with bitstream Dolby Digital or DTS then the unit will either output 'noise' or will be silent.
Apparently some Panasonic TVs, and possibly others, only switch to PCM on a per video basis.
In an attempt to reduce the confusion being caused by discussing two different issues on one thread, I have taken the liberty of copying this note under a new topic on the Hi-Fi Forum. It has nothing directly to do with streaming.
I suggest people affected by this follow-up there. I hope you do not mind Weegie!
Roger
Roger, thanks for the clarification. Yes I am only interested in the original topic of this thread, namely the Netflix iOS app for iOS devices causing Naim streamers (not the Mu-so) to loose their connection. I do not want to watch Netflix on my iPad, I just want to use the iPad as a remote control for Netflix using the Netflix iOS app to watch Netflix on a normal TV (or rather the wife does while I listen to my Naim NDS). Clearly though this is the cause of the issue. I was hoping that the introduction of a smart TV (with Netflix installed - no need for the iOS app) and the introduction of Amazon Fire Stick dongle on our existing non-smart (stupid?) TV (again negating the need for the Netflix iOS control app) would solve my problem as we can then remove all the Netflix iOS control apps from our iPads. Do you think this will solve my problem?
If you want to control Netflix via iPad and not have it disable your NDS, the solution I've found is to use an Apple TV with the Apple Remote app on the iPad. This works AFAIK. [Tested it a few weeks ago]
Hi Nigel
So long as you did not need to use the Netflix iOS app then it should, yes. But I would think carefully that this is a route you would choose to take if the app is fixed soon as we all hope it will be.
My personal preference is, like Weegie, to use an Apple TV. I admit to being suspicious of apps built-in to so-called smart TVs. How often will these be updated and how easy is it to do so? Again, just my personal preference, but I prefer to use a TV just as a screen. I do not even feed an aerial into my Sony.
Roger
There is no need to use the Apple Remote App. Just use the remote control that comes with the Apple TV.
i am still happily using an Apple TV 3, but take the audio out from the TV to a Mu-so to simplify switching between other HDMI inputs to the TV. This is the way it has to be done anyway with the Apple TV 4.
Roger
Roger, Kevin thanks. I have mainly decided to go for a smart TV because the non-smart TV the wife was using (which causes all the Netflix/Naim streamer problems) is way too small and we need a new TV anyway. I toyed with the idea getting the Apple TV (£120) for our main TV in the lounge but the Kindle Fire Stick is cheaper at £80 and is only needed to solve the problem with the Netflix iOS control app.