NDX vs Naim DAC

Posted by: Patu on 09 March 2016

So as I have written earlier in few threads, I recently auditioned NDX in my home setup and to my surprise, am now a new owner of NDX streamer. How did I end up to this decision? Well I've been using Naim DAC as my primary source for five years now. I've used PC as source for the music for over 15 years. I've actually newer owned a proper CD-player in my life. Transports between PC and Naim DAC have changed and have had effect to the sound but Naim DAC has stayed there for a good time now. I have my computer quite close to my hifi setup so this hasn't been a problem to me. Five meter USB cable has done the job connecting the PC to the system.

Anyway, streaming has always interested me to some extent and recently even more. I think that's the future of digital audio and probably the best way to do it in the end. You can completely separate your audio setup from the computer with NAS if you like. Even with PC as server, no electrical connection is needed (like with USB connection). I still use my PC as server since it's always on when I'm home so why bother with one more gadget in the apartment. 

A fellow Naim enthusiast (same guy who introduced me to this brand and craziness about 6-7 years ago) have had Naim NDX pretty much since it was released on 2011. He also had Naim DAC before that and after careful consideration and auditioning, decided to stick with only NDX in the end. He even had XPS2 in the mix but decided to let it go also. Why you may ask? Well his primary source is vinyl and Linn LP12 so digital audio has always been the second option after that. We had planned to do NDX vs Naim DAC comparison at my place since over a year ago and finally two weeks ago we did. 

Now based on what I've read on the forum, I was pretty much 100% positive that NDX wouldn't have a chance against my TeddyPardo U2S (transport) + Naim DAC combo. Majority of people here seem to prefer Naim DAC, and even more with upgrade PSU. Well we did the comparison bare and I've never had upgrade PSU on Naim DAC. I did audition few though but that's another story. 

My equipment chain: PC -> Chord Silver USB -> TeddyPardo U2S -> Naim DC1 BNC -> Naim DAC -> Tellurium Q Black -> Naim SuperNait2 + HiCap DR -> NAC A5 -> ATC SCM40 v2

First we played few familiar tracks through my setup and after that switched to NDX. Ethernet connection with basic CAT5e cable, foobar2000 + foo_upnp plugin as server and everything worked immediately. First we had 4.3 firmware in NDX and started the audition. Immediately there was a clear difference in the sound. It wasn't as polite and clean than it was with Naim DAC but to my surprise, it sounded more Naim. It was more exciting, involving and fun, slightly more forward than Naim DAC. It grabbed my attention better and made listening easier. After about 45 minutes of listening through familiar tracks, we decided to update the firmware to 4.4 with Tidal support. The change was clear again. Sound changed same way as it did with recent Naim DAC firmware update. Slightly more towards hifi with better separation and clarity but it didn't kill the fun from the sound. Now I liked NDX even more. I was extremely surprised. Based on what I had read, I expected warmer, not as clear and duller sound but IMO NDX had more engaging, punchier, livelier sound and even the PRaT was slightly ahead of Naim DAC. 

Now some of you will say that my transport sucks but it doesn't. I've gone through several USB to S/PDIF converters and before that, sound cards, and the one I currently have is the best one I've auditioned. It clearly beat the previous transport I used, Stello U3. 

After few hours of weighing my options, I knew I had to go for NDX. I could live with nDAC perfectly fine, it's even handier option for me since I need to get occasional Youtube, Netflix etc sounds out of my PC also and that can't be done by streaming. Luckily there's digital inputs on NDX. Anyway, my decision was mostly based on the sound quality difference. Also it feels good that the equipment chain is now fully Naim, no third party transport needed. Tidal and Spotify work nicely through the Naim app also.

I found a great December 2013 unit in mint condition from eBay for a reasonable price so I pulled the trigger. It arrived yesterday. I got myself Chord C-stream ethernet cables from PC to router and router to NDX. No switch here, even though many of you seem to prefer to have one there. I think D-Link DIR 868L is more than capable to handle the traffic on its own. Everything's working perfectly (except small adjusting with the server software) and it's playing sweet music here as I write this post. 

My equipment chain now: JRiver MC Server -> Chord C-stream -> Naim NDX -> Tellurium Q Black -> Naim SuperNait2 + HiCap DR -> NAC A5 -> ATC SCM40 v2

By the way if anyone knows how to get seek bar to work when playing tracks with JRiver MC Server + Naim app for iPhone/iPad then please let me know. Though I'm afraid that JRiver MC Server just doesn't support that function. With Asset and foobar2000 + foo_upnp the seekbar works great. 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Patu. surely the NDAC and NDX are very different audio devices? The NDAC is a general purpose high end DAC and the NDX is a streamer with an 'X' quality DAC in built.

So yes you might use the NDAC with an NDX but they are hardly suited to compare for the same function.

Anyway the main thing is that  you have a system that works for you and sounds satisfying.

Simon

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by TOBYJUG

I would think that when Naim were designing the Ndac they were interested in the concept of an outboard dac - in as much as - Naim never subscribed to the idea of an outboard dac when first bringing out its digital products. Perhaps befitting the nature of the device they sought to make it sound less Naim and more universal and able to work outside the context of an all Naim system.

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by cvrle

Try to google wtfplay-project, it's about a Linux player, that may surprise you once you try it with nDac, or any other Dac. I use it with Chord Hugo. It is fantastic, but I can't post the link, sorry...forum rules.

 

 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by kaydee6

Wait for naim new dac... it will be interesting how it will compare.

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by analogmusic

I doubt a new Naim dac is coming.

 

They just updated the firmware on all their digital products (that can be updated) and while they aren't really making a big deal of it, to me it seems like the DAC V1, NDAC.NDX, NDS and ND5XS got the new digital filter that the 272 has, which has a patent application (calls the sells-nielsen) filter.

So until Naim decide to stop using off the shelf DAC chips and design their own FGPA like Chord does, there is nowhere to go from here, everything has been optimized to the maximum now and it sounds really good to me and a number of other people too.

 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Patu

I guess I made a poor choice with the topic. My intention was to just tell you how I ended up with the NDX. 

Simon:

That's how I saw things earlier also. Naim DAC is dependant on the source and how you feed it. There are even better solutions than mine but when using PC and USB connection as source, I guess it will get super expensive before clear improvement. Now with U2S, DC1 and the USB cable added to the nDAC, these two source setups are pretty much on the same price as new so the comparison should be fair.

Of course you can still compare them by their sound quality. Not directly but that's why I described my whole equipment chain there. Of course all the cabling, transport etc have some effect but I know the base sound of Naim DAC very well by now. Now I also can say that NDX is just as much a high end source than Naim DAC is. Its DAC clearly isn't just 'X' quality as you described but of very high qualty. In my system with the given setup and connections, I can say that these two were pretty much on the same line but with different kind of sound. One likes the other and so on but I decided to go for NDX. Not regretting it!

Luckily Naim DAC's go for ridiculously low price second hand so it's not difficult to get one later on if I start to miss it. 

I could also add that there seems to be definite synergy between NDX and SN2. What I also noticed that my setup now sounds better with low volume than it did before, when it really started to sing only when turning up the volume. Living in a small apartment, this works very well for me!

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by analogmusic

so are you keeping the NDAC? 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Patu

No, I'm planning to sell it. 

It just feels wrong to have NDX level of equipment working only as a transport. At least in my small setup. 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk

For me, the NDX acting as a renderer transport is where it excels... I have always used my NDX that way.. Originally with NDAC/555PS and then with the Hugo. The NDX in built DAC is fine, but gives no where near the performance that I expect from  my replay system, but I look at it as a resident back up... but then I am a network and multi media systems engineer.

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk
analogmusic posted:

They just updated the firmware on all their digital products (that can be updated) and while they aren't really making a big deal of it, to me it seems like the DAC V1, NDAC.NDX, NDS and ND5XS got the new digital filter that the 272 has, which has a patent application (calls the sells-nielsen) filter.

I see no mention of this filter, and a search on Google seems to return only one valid hit that I can see which is related to a query of yours on this forum sometime back..

The information I have is that the NDAC and I believe the NDS and NDX use an IIR designed modified Buttorworth filter that's encoded within 5 lines of assembley code on the SHARC DSP processor .. The number of poles of this filter appear not stated, but I expect it to be a standard standard playoff between degree of slope ( order of filter) and artefacts caused..  all fairly standard stuff.. the interesting bit is usually whether to go FIR or IIR and that is often down to implementation choice and resources available and electrical noise created by the implementation and other compromises such as phase distortion/errors.

Finally the analogue filter is a 6th order filter on the analogue output.

Have you a patent number for this so called Sells-Nielson filter, if indeed it is patented .. It would be interesting to see what it is.

Simon

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Patu

Simon:

I'm surprised you feel so strongly against NDX as a standalone player. Of course I could compare only the DAC sections on both devices using U2S as a transport, now when I still have all the pieces at home. Let's see if I have energy to do that. 

I feel like the setup is more straight forward and more Naim (by sound mostly) now with NDX. 

I have once tried UQ2 as transport for my Naim DAC years ago. It fell clearly behind my USB transport back then (which wasn't even the U2S I last used). 

Have you directly compared Naim DAC and NDX bare or both upgraded with PSU? How do you manage to hear so huge difference between them? IMO it's clearly more about taste and flavor than a fact that one would be clearly better than another. 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by analogmusic

Simon this filter is mentioned on a review of the NAC 272, and the mention of patent is there.

I am only assuming they have now updated all their digital products to use the same one as the sound quality of my DAC V1 changed quite a bit (for the better) after the firmware update

Seems like the NDX has also improved. Did you get a chance to update the firmware yet on your NDX?

I 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Patu, please don't get me wrong, I am certainly not against it.. it works well within its performance budget/window. Simply when you are used to a high level of replay performance you do feel the replay experience is missing something when you revert to the NDX. And it's true, I don't think the NDX has that magic appeal that the CDX2 appears to have with some music.. Clearly subjective.  

Before I used Naim streaming, I used a CDS3, and it was not until I demoed a NDX with NDAC/555PS at home did I feel I had a source that could replace my CDS3, and the NDX/555PS was not for me at all. At that time my mind was focussed on one source.. I have since learnt to appreciate the diversication of sources.

Simon

 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Analogmusic, absolutely my NDX is updated, and also running beta firmware...no major or even moderately signicant changes here in its audio performances when acting as a DAC only, although most firmware updates slightly modify the sound due to the slightly different noise profile caused when executing the code.

As far as I understand it the recent DAC firmware updates were about adding DSD playback and perhaps more importantly optimising the DSP code / functions so as to allow more efficient assembley code execution so as to cause less perturbations and electrical noise (what some refer to as RF) when executing the DSP code. The digital processing noise created becomes the limiting factor on many high end DACs 

Simon

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Patu

Simon:

There definitely is some kind of magic in the sound of NDX and I feel that it's missing with Naim DAC. It's easy to understand why so many prefer the nDAC since it has more correct sound by the hifi terms. Though NDX after the firmware update comes very close.

Also we have to remember that our setups are on different levels. I could only dream of 555PS on my setup, at least for the moment. 

Though IIRC you use ATC SCM19 as speakers? So there must be quite similar end results with our setups. New active version of SCM19 paired with 272 would be an interesting audition. 

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I agree and I wonder if Naim 252DR or higher on the active 19s would be significantly more mouth watering.. I suspect so.. In the Naim line up I have learnt that the  heart of the higher end system is the preamp.. Once you have that right for you everything snaps into place.. and allows you to enjoy the various qualities of different sources and amps for a given speaker/room setup...

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by analogmusic

it is reflected in the price of the Naim preamps 

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by Gandalf_fi
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree and I wonder if Naim 252DR or higher on the active 19s would be significantly more mouth watering.. I suspect so.. In the Naim line up I have learnt that the  heart of the higher end system is the preamp.. Once you have that right for you everything snaps into place.. and allows you to enjoy the various qualities of different sources and amps for a given speaker/room setup...

Naim line up preamp is important but in future high end preamp is not needed at all like MSB select or coming Chord setups. Hope Naim is doing similar to statement level streamer as well.

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by analogmusic

Although the Chord Hugo has a really good preamp, somehow a Naim power amp needs a Naim preamp to give the Naim sound.

I tried it, but much prefer having a Naim preamp.

In other setups, may be different.

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by Patu
analogmusic posted:

Although the Chord Hugo has a really good preamp, somehow a Naim power amp needs a Naim preamp to give the Naim sound.

I tried it, but much prefer having a Naim preamp.

In other setups, may be different.

Is the effect same other way around, Naim preamp with third party poweramp? 

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by feeling_zen

Indeed an apples to apples test would be using the same transport and feeding the digital input on the NDX to use it as a DAC only. That may be a different story entirely in terms of which is best - but since they have such different sonic character I really couldn't say which one would be preferred.

But I totally understand the OP's main post. As a whole source chain, seperate transport+nDAC may be outperformed by a single NDX. The sum of its part does, of course contain an excellent transport, excellent DSP, an acceptable DAC and a carefully matched analogue output stage.

 

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by Patu

Well said feeling_zen! Once again, my choice of title was slightly poor and misleading since we aren't comparing only the DAC sections here. 

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by King Size

This time last year I was in the process of making the switch away from CD replay.  I had already settled on the UnitiServe-SSD as my initial source component and auditioned both the DAC and NDX fed by SPDIF and ethernet respectively.  While I understand that these are effectively different components the end result is the same in that the can both playback music from the UnitiServe (although they achieve this in different ways).  My primary criterion was which sounded best and I felt that UnitiServe into NDX over a wired network was superior to UnitiServe via SPDIF into the DAC.  Of course I accept that in different set ups the DAC may well be superior but in this particular instance it wasn't.  

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by GraemeH

NDX > NDAC:XPS2 (again) here, all latest firmware. I find this the most satisfying source after the CDS3:555PS I used to have. The NDX:XPS sounds a tad smaller and flatter to me by comparison - the addition of the NDAC:XPS2 opening things up and increasing scale.

G

Posted on: 10 March 2016 by Simon-in-Suffolk
analogmusic posted:

Although the Chord Hugo has a really good preamp, somehow a Naim power amp needs a Naim preamp to give the Naim sound.

I tried it, but much prefer having a Naim preamp.

In other setups, may be different.

Absolutely. I have plugged Hugo effectively directly into the NAP  - and gone via Naim 252.. to me the 252 as preamp is so much better than with the Hugo directly into  Naim amp. I must admit it would have been nice if that want the case.

With all the multiple sources for some of us the multi input analogue Preamp is now more important than ever.

S