NDX vs Naim DAC

Ok small update here, or actually quite big. I'm back to Naim DAC.

During my initial demo of NDX, I got super excited of the more aggressive, lively and funnier presentation. What I didn't hear in that demo, was the slight tightness and hardness of the sound with NDX. When I had it home and listened longer periods, it started to annoy me, a lot. Listening fatigue is something I won't tolerate at all. I tried to tweak it out and got quite close with changing the stock power cord from wall socket to Wireworld Matrix to Naim PowerLine. This brought more weight and authority to the sound but same time killed some of the liveliness. Anyway, I decided that NDX must sing without PowerLine and if not, then back to Naim DAC. And here I am, back with Naim DAC. 

I'm actually quite relieved now. I don't have real need to move to streaming yet since my computer is so close to my hifi set and I live in a single room apartment. With PC + foobar2000 as my source, I'll do just fine for now and last.fm scrobbling works flawlessly. This was pain in the ass to get to work with streaming. 

Oh, what I also did, was to borrow Naim ND5XS from my dealer to try out purely as a transport. There's actually two ex demo units for sale at the moment. It did work well but I must say that the sound quality was extremely similar to the USB to S/PDIF converter I currently use. No big differences here. USB to S/PDIF converter is four times cheaper than ND5XS and ten times cheaper than NDX so I guess it's a killer deal. I only briefly tried NDX as a transport though, can't comment on that. 

And about the sound quality differences between NDX and Naim DAC. They are different for sure, pretty much as I described earlier. I do miss some attributes of NDX sound but Naim DAC has its own qualities. It sounds like you're few rows further in the audience with nDAC when with NDX you're right in front of the stage. Also NDX had much more analytical sound and to my ears it dug more details out of the records but with too much edge which quickly became fatiguing and annoying. First impression is "WOW" of course but not so good in the long run. With Naim DAC, the bass hits deeper and with more power but the upper register is smoother and finer IMO. All in all more relaxed presentation which still rocks. 

Fascinating update!

One point strikes me as important to keep in mind when comparing borrowed and demo Naim kit is that there have been some significant SQ improvements with recent firmware upgrades for streamers and Naim dacs. New units direct from Naim will have the latest firmware version, but that may not be the case with stock, or used or demo kit.  I know one might expect a Naim dealer to put the latest firmware versions on their demo kit, but my experience is that they sometimes do and sometimes don't.  So worth having a little look to see which firmware version you are listening to.

best

David

David,

We started the demoing with old firmware NDX and updated during the session. Also Naim DAC has been updated on the same day the newest firmware was released. There are clear differences between the sound quality of the firmwares. My NDX also had the newest firmware. 

Very good! As I said before, it's a fascinating comparison you document. Thanks for the feedback!

best

David

Patu, interesting to follow this thread.  Thank you for sharing your experience.  I have no experience with the NDX, but have enjoyed the nDAC for several years.  I am relieved to hear that you are keeping it.  When some day you add an XPS to the nDAC, you will be very glad you did.

Cheers,

Charlie

Patu, you say you only briefly tried it, but I ran a NDX driving a NDAC/555PS for a few years and I thought it great fun and very enjoyable...the NDAC like most DACs I know need the best transport quality they can get to sound their best.

Simon

Patu posted:

So as I have written earlier in few threads, I recently auditioned NDX in my home setup and to my surprise, am now a new owner of NDX streamer. How did I end up to this decision? Well I've been using Naim DAC as my primary source for five years now. I've used PC as source for the music for over 15 years. I've actually newer owned a proper CD-player in my life. Transports between PC and Naim DAC have changed and have had effect to the sound but Naim DAC has stayed there for a good time now. I have my computer quite close to my hifi setup so this hasn't been a problem to me. Five meter USB cable has done the job connecting the PC to the system.

Anyway, streaming has always interested me to some extent and recently even more. I think that's the future of digital audio and probably the best way to do it in the end. You can completely separate your audio setup from the computer with NAS if you like. Even with PC as server, no electrical connection is needed (like with USB connection). I still use my PC as server since it's always on when I'm home so why bother with one more gadget in the apartment. 

A fellow Naim enthusiast (same guy who introduced me to this brand and craziness about 6-7 years ago) have had Naim NDX pretty much since it was released on 2011. He also had Naim DAC before that and after careful consideration and auditioning, decided to stick with only NDX in the end. He even had XPS2 in the mix but decided to let it go also. Why you may ask? Well his primary source is vinyl and Linn LP12 so digital audio has always been the second option after that. We had planned to do NDX vs Naim DAC comparison at my place since over a year ago and finally two weeks ago we did. 

Now based on what I've read on the forum, I was pretty much 100% positive that NDX wouldn't have a chance against my TeddyPardo U2S (transport) + Naim DAC combo. Majority of people here seem to prefer Naim DAC, and even more with upgrade PSU. Well we did the comparison bare and I've never had upgrade PSU on Naim DAC. I did audition few though but that's another story. 

My equipment chain: PC -> Chord Silver USB -> TeddyPardo U2S -> Naim DC1 BNC -> Naim DAC -> Tellurium Q Black -> Naim SuperNait2 + HiCap DR -> NAC A5 -> ATC SCM40 v2

First we played few familiar tracks through my setup and after that switched to NDX. Ethernet connection with basic CAT5e cable, foobar2000 + foo_upnp plugin as server and everything worked immediately. First we had 4.3 firmware in NDX and started the audition. Immediately there was a clear difference in the sound. It wasn't as polite and clean than it was with Naim DAC but to my surprise, it sounded more Naim. It was more exciting, involving and fun, slightly more forward than Naim DAC. It grabbed my attention better and made listening easier. After about 45 minutes of listening through familiar tracks, we decided to update the firmware to 4.4 with Tidal support. The change was clear again. Sound changed same way as it did with recent Naim DAC firmware update. Slightly more towards hifi with better separation and clarity but it didn't kill the fun from the sound. Now I liked NDX even more. I was extremely surprised. Based on what I had read, I expected warmer, not as clear and duller sound but IMO NDX had more engaging, punchier, livelier sound and even the PRaT was slightly ahead of Naim DAC. 

Now some of you will say that my transport sucks but it doesn't. I've gone through several USB to S/PDIF converters and before that, sound cards, and the one I currently have is the best one I've auditioned. It clearly beat the previous transport I used, Stello U3. 

After few hours of weighing my options, I knew I had to go for NDX. I could live with nDAC perfectly fine, it's even handier option for me since I need to get occasional Youtube, Netflix etc sounds out of my PC also and that can't be done by streaming. Luckily there's digital inputs on NDX. Anyway, my decision was mostly based on the sound quality difference. Also it feels good that the equipment chain is now fully Naim, no third party transport needed. Tidal and Spotify work nicely through the Naim app also.

I found a great December 2013 unit in mint condition from eBay for a reasonable price so I pulled the trigger. It arrived yesterday. I got myself Chord C-stream ethernet cables from PC to router and router to NDX. No switch here, even though many of you seem to prefer to have one there. I think D-Link DIR 868L is more than capable to handle the traffic on its own. Everything's working perfectly (except small adjusting with the server software) and it's playing sweet music here as I write this post. 

My equipment chain now: JRiver MC Server -> Chord C-stream -> Naim NDX -> Tellurium Q Black -> Naim SuperNait2 + HiCap DR -> NAC A5 -> ATC SCM40 v2

By the way if anyone knows how to get seek bar to work when playing tracks with JRiver MC Server + Naim app for iPhone/iPad then please let me know. Though I'm afraid that JRiver MC Server just doesn't support that function. With Asset and foobar2000 + foo_upnp the seekbar works great. 

I would have stuck to your NDAC as well and would have wanted to connect the NDX to the NDAC and see if you liked that combination, with an option to later upgrade the NDAC with a power supply.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Patu, you say you only briefly tried it, but I ran a NDX driving a NDAC/555PS for a few years and I thought it great fun and very enjoyable...the NDAC like most DACs I know need the best transport quality they can get to sound their best.

Simon

I respect your experience with NDX + nDAC but then again, did you ever compare it to a proper USB to S/PDIF converters? To justify 4-10x price difference on some component, I expect night and day difference and improvement. At this level it rarely happens though. But this kind of improvements happened when I moved to SN integrated DAC to Naim DAC or SN to SN2. 

Would've loved to have full Naim equipment chain with NDX or ND5XS as transport but not yet. Probably some day when I move to bigger apartment.

Also this experience with NDX slightly concerns me about 272 + 250DR combo. Does 272 also sound tight and fatiguing? 

Bert:

Can't afford to have this expensive transport at the moment. Just couldb't justify it in my head since the USB transport gives so great performance also. 

Dear Patu! I have also gone through all of the steps you have and noe have a Ndac (updatet) with xps, and a T-u2s. I also has Ndx alone, with xps and with ndac. It sounds really good but for me the u2s-ndac- xps is the most priceworthy alt. The ndac is benefits really well with xps. More than the Ndx, and with the u2s it has earth shattering bass. The combo is also, like you wrote much easier on the eear, while retaining prat and yet detailed. Much better and more powerfull than a Klimax renere I tried once. It actually gives my lp12-akito,adikt, armageddon a run for its money and sounds domstolens warmer and more analogue, with deeper and more powerfull bass. 

Fred

I recently returned to NDX:NDAC:XPS after forays with ND5XS & Qute into Hugo...The quality of the feed into either dac is very important ime. The ND5 & Qute might be a deal cheaper than the NDX but don't have the refinement of the NDX.

G

Fred:

Very interesting findings! Especially that you have compared the Naim offerings with Klimax Renew, since that was one option I considered about also. U2S is an amazing transport for sure. Quick comparison against ND5XS didn't reveal any clearly audible differences. 

Graeme: 

Your digital chain is impressive. Did you get a chance to compare NDX and ND5XS as transports only, feeding the Naim DAC? I have a feeling that there can't be big differences here but I might be wrong. I have done much experimenting with transports and while there are differences there, even with Naim DAC, the differences aren't as big as say NDX vs Naim DAC. But yes, it does matter how you feed the DAC. 

The ND5XS is not as refined as digi-out over an extended listen to my ears.

G

ndx into hugo wipes the floor with ndx/ndac   , not from dealers demo. but with my own system.   ive totally forgot about the units and enjoy

Hi Graeme, why did you leave the Hugo and go back to NDAC? was there anything lacking in the Hugo sound?

analogmusic posted:

Hi Graeme, why did you leave the Hugo and go back to NDAC? was there anything lacking in the Hugo sound?

 

Rather that I found nothing lacking in the NDAC:XPS with new firmware so prefer an all naim system - right through to S-400's.

G