Mac & DAC vs Streamer

Nothing special about streamers except convenience.  Get the Berkeley Alpha USB + Chord Hugo DAC for about half price of a NDX with much better SQ.  If you need a remote then maybe the Chord TT DAC (I've never heard this one but I think it supposed to be slightly better than Hugo.)

Personally the convenience of a streamer makes the NDX a decent value even though I am only using it as a transport into my third party DAC.

There is plenty of info on these forums - try searching Mac Mini + Hugo.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the term 'streamer' is imprecise, as in this context there are three distinct parts/processes: a file server, a renderer that takes the music file and converts to a digital audio stream, and the DAC. A Naim "streamer" such as the ND5XS combines the second and third of these, with which you also need the file server, either a computer or better still a 'network attached storage' device (NAS). 

I have a Mac Mini running Audirvana into Chord Hugo DAC, with a USB to SPDIF convertor/isolator (Gustard U12) in between. I found this combination gives better SQ than did an ND5XS + XP5XS, at significantly less cost, while the MM effectively makes a silent server (late 2012 MM with 8GB RAM and twin 1TB SSDs). In this case the Mac Mini can serve the function of both file server and renderer (Audirvana software is the renderer).

Others have reported beneficial performance compared to other Naim streamers such as NDX or NDS. 

The USB to SPDIF convertor/isolator is to remove RF interference that otherwise you get as a consequence of the power supplies in computers, and mine cost ~£110 from a well known online auction sire (direct from China) and is also available through an online bookshop... The Chord TT I believe has galvanic isolation of its USB input and might not need the isolator, though is quite a bit more expensive.

When I first had ND5XS I had a cheap NAS (Zyxel NSA 325) to serve the music files, which was irritatingly noisy, and planned to replace it with a QNAP silent NAS with SSDs. The MM is virtually silent (inaudible more than 2ft away in quiet room), and it + Gustard + Hugo is similar cost to that + ND5XS alone (without XP5XS).

I use my Hugo straight into my power amp ( Bryston 4Bsst) without a preamp, which I found beneficial compared to when I had first used it through my preamp - however the benefit or otherwise of that, other than loss of other inputs conveniently switchable, would very much depend on the characteristics of the power amp and preamp you use, and probably only feasible to determine by trying.

The one gripe I have is that Audirvana's library browse facility doesn't allow me to organize albums in the way I'd like, i.e. by folder hierarchy, relying instead on metadata, and a high proportion of my 1000+ albums have incomplete or unsuitable tags.  Audirvana have said they're working on implementing a possible solution - which I hope they do soon as I really don't want the task of going through my collection changing metadata just for that.

For a single person, not delivering "a package of entertainment services" to a communal group/family, the options are more numerous.  The usability benefits of a complete system of compatible and synergystic components can easily outweigh the minute differences of specific pieces.  My advice is go with a complete system that works for you, and begin enjoying the fruits of the decision-made, at a price that works for you.  Don't look back.  

Nick

Having said that, I have a Mac into a DAC and it sounds very good.  It is very flexible, cost effective, and fairly future-proof.  But the NDX sounds as good or better, and provides total control of the system, which is important to me.  Only Sonos into the DAC was enough worse sounding than either the Mac or NDX that I would make the effort to use something else for better sound.  Squeezebox Touch into the nDAC is very satisfying, sound-wise, too.

All IMHO, of course.

Good luck, whatever you try.

Nick

Thanks for the replies.

I enjoy my current set-up, which is Synology NAS -> Mac Mini -> DAC-V1 -> NAP300 -> Spendor A9 (on auditioning I actually preferred using the 300 alone to using 282/SC/250.2, and at the time I couldn't afford a pre-amp with the 300).

However I'm now thinking of next steps (upgraditis strikes) and auditioning a 282/SC or 252/SC slotted in to the system, and also from the source perspective trying different DACs such as Hugo etc - but was wondering if upgraditis based on SQ alone will eventually lead me to a dedicated streamer as source and ditching my Mac Mini / DAC.

Not fussed about convenience - so glad to hear views that SQ does not necessarily suffer with a Mac & DAC approach, as this may mean that elusive stopping point is reached sooner..

Hi Will,

I think there are three routes - UPNP n Streamer, computer n DAC, and dedicated streamer/server n DAC. You have mentioned the first two.  In my mind, the last option means using something like Melco or Aurender.

It really comes down to SQ in your  set up and preference of use.  All three options are merging in terms of their inputs, I.e. including local (NAS or built in storage) and cloud based music services.  For example, Naim streamers with Spotify and TIDAL;  Audirvana with Qobuz/Highresaudio; and Aurender with Qobuz, 

IME the:

• V1 is a good enough source when used in 'DAC only' mode with a 282 and is comparable to a bare NDX in performance.
• Change brought about by adding a bare  282 to the V1 was transformational and took quite a while time to get used to (immense enjoyment )

Changing one part of the system, in this case a pre, would enable you to truly evualate stuff upstream of it (I,e. DACs, servers etc).

HTH

Jude

I find the Zen vortexbox with upgraded linear power supply into Ndac route at least comparable in performance to NDX. Haven't heard NDS to compare but that would be significantly different in budget terms. Also has the convenience of the unitIserve - but ymmv of course. 

The point made about synergy may apply to, for example, amp and speaker paring, but I'm not convinced it applies to source: there have been many views expressed on this forum that Mac Mini with Hugo beats SQ of Naim streamers, and in Naim systems.

Re generic 'Mac and DAC', there again has been a lot expressed about the benefits of a dedicated Mac Mini run headless, over Macs (or other computers) used for other things and with monitors etc ettached, and in particular with any of them, the importance of prevention or removal of, for example, RF interference, whether that be by an inserted isolator, or a DAC having good isolation - but it is vital if the best SQ is wanted when using a computer as renderer.

my own experience, which has been echoed by quite a few others, is that Mac Mini with Audirvana and Hugo can beat SQ of the Naim streamers, at significantly less cost, but with downside of more fiddly setting up and slightly less simple turn on if not left running.

mac pro tower, optical lead ndac 555ps, 552, 300, pmc mb2, sounds great. did hear a nds in direct swop with a ndac and the nds was better. but not needing a streamer it was a no brainer. anyway mac & dac works just fine which ever way you go

+1 Innocent Bystander - Mac Mini with Audirvana in direct mode into a Hugo is very hard to beat for the money.  Mac Mini can be improved too for not a lot of money to further improve sq.  Took me some time a lot of testing to make the move to the Mac buut once I did I've never looked back and can't imagine returning to a streamer

this all sounds very good, but the reality is a bit more complicated.

I learnt recently that Naim preamps (except 172 and 272) expect the source to be grounded to earth - FOR the signal. 

so using Mac and Hugo doesn't provide this.

At worst you get a hum. For me what I heard is less solid bass, and frankly a minor loss of that naim PRAT (although quite subtle).

The moment I plugged in a DAC V1  into 282 (with ground switch set the chassis), the performance of my Hugo and turntable into 282 (as a system) improves.

analogmusic posted:

this all sounds very good, but the reality is a bit more complicated.

I learnt recently that Naim preamps (except 172 and 272) expect the source to be grounded to earth - FOR the signal. 

so using Mac and Hugo doesn't provide this.

At worst you get a hum. For me what I heard is less solid bass, and frankly a minor loss of that naim PRAT (although quite subtle).

The moment I plugged in a DAC V1  into 282 (with ground switch set the chassis), the performance of my Hugo and turntable into 282 (as a system) improves.

 

Can I suggest reading this thread: https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/ndx-and-chord-hugo, and meanwhile Chord say this :-

"How do I cure a buzz when connecting Hugo to a Naim amplifier as a line level source.
Naim amplification has the mains safety ground and the signal ground separated. Naim grounds at source.

To ensure that there is no possibility of mains hum or buzz when the Hugo is connected to a mains charger, it is simply necessary to ground the Hugo as it will be a source component, and Naim expects it to be grounded.

The easiest way is to connect a wire from the earth pin of a standard 13A plugtop to the Naim Supernait terminal marked 'SIGNAL GROUND' on the back panel. This terminal is internally connected to the braid of the signal connections connecting Hugo to the Naim amplifier.

There are no high currents or voltages involved and a simple piece of thin flexible insulated wire will suffice.

The 13A plugtop with the single earth wire added is plugged into the wall adjacent to the Naim amplifier mains plug and completes the ground path and eliminates the hum.

(This is often not required as introducing a correctly wired Naim source into the system will deal with the signal and electrical ground connection and so no hum would ever be experienced.)"

Of course, an alternative may be to dispense with the preamp entirely if you don't need it for alternative sources and feed the power amp direct. Whether or not that would be beneficial would depend on the power amp, and I understand that Naim advises that with their own power amps a Naim preamp should be used to limit high frequencies, so might not be an acceptable option in your supystem.

analogmusic posted:

this all sounds very good, but the reality is a bit more complicated.

I learnt recently that Naim preamps (except 172 and 272) expect the source to be grounded to earth - FOR the signal. 

so using Mac and Hugo doesn't provide this.

At worst you get a hum. For me what I heard is less solid bass, and frankly a minor loss of that naim PRAT (although quite subtle).

The moment I plugged in a DAC V1  into 282 (with ground switch set the chassis), the performance of my Hugo and turntable into 282 (as a system) improves.

 

To be fair it's not much more complicated, I haven't had that problem with my set up since I put the Mac in but it's very easy to resolve if you do.

I understand but a nac 172 or 272 seems more compelling to me and nac 272 sounds fantastic 

Every option has its merits and all solutions noted above can deliver excellent SQ. I've had Linn and Naim streamers and i've had a few Mac 'n' Dac solutions and all have worked very well for me. The Mac option gives you a lot of flexibility, but with it a bit more work needed to optimise the setup for audio duties. Plug and play solutions such as the Melco are better still. 

If i was starting afresh, i'd be looking at what DAC i was intending to use as this has most influence on the SQ then looking at the most effective source for that DAC based on input choices (USB, S/PDIF etc) and services required (Ripped red book, Hi res, streaming service integration...)

James

analogmusic posted:

I understand but a nac 172 or 272 seems more compelling to me and nac 272 sounds fantastic 

As always, the simple answer is to listen to both options and see which you prefer.  I preferred a Mac and Hugo for a lot of reasons including sq but I can see why others wouldn't

Doesn't have to be a Mac either .. I've got a nice neat fanless Acer notebook, with Windows 10 and JRiver (and an occasionally useful touchscreen) driving a Chord TT. Absolutely superb sound, remote control with the magnificent JRemote, can use Qobuz or Tidal from the keyboard or via Remote Desktop on my iPad. £300 or thereabouts. No headless hassles. My advice would be to find the music player software you like .. Audirvana, JRiver, foobar .. whichever gives you the best experience and then work back from there.  Things are happening so fast nowadays - Tidal, Qobuz, roon, MQA, who knows what's round the corner. A Mac or PC based system gives you lots of flexibility and means you can stay up to date. Waiting for the likes of Naim to integrate these services will take forever.

It seems to be commonly regarded that dedicating a Mac Mini, and running Audirvana in direct mode (not using iTunes either into a galvanically isolated DAC or using an isolator between MM and a DAC like Hugo, gives the best SQ, and that other computer variations might not be as good. I haven't compared such alternatives so can't say, but i have compared the MM/isolator/Hugo combination with ND5XS+XO5XS, and with ND5XS+Hugo, and the MM/Audirvana/Hugo wins on SQ, and others have said similar comparing with NDX.

In addition to comparing to streamers I also compared the Mac Mini to a PC laptop, Mac Book Pro and a Windows server and the Mac Mini was audibly better than all. With a little fettling it was significantly better too than the standard Mac Mini

My rack as 1/2 shelf left.  I would like to add a Unitiserve but I need a DAC between that and the 552.    Would a Hugo go on the back of the shelf using a couple of short cables?   I remember the Prefix phono stage that integrated with the LP 12 and retired no separate shelf space.  I have a Halide DAC which is the size of a zippo lighter.   Could a Hugo take its place?

Skip posted:

My rack as 1/2 shelf left.  I would like to add a Unitiserve but I need a DAC between that and the 552.    Would a Hugo go on the back of the shelf using a couple of short cables?   I remember the Prefix phono stage that integrated with the LP 12 and retired no separate shelf space.  I have a Halide DAC which is the size of a zippo lighter.   Could a Hugo take its place?

Chord website will give you dimensions, though note there are connections on opposite ends so need adequate allowance for plugs/cables both ends depending on configuration.

Unless you use it without a oreamp, and leave it permanently on, it doesnt need to be reachable - otherwise it needs access both to turn on and select the right input unless you're using the default opening one. I use my Hugo standing on edge, so footprint is actually very small.

Will the Serve plug into it and run or do I need another box between them?