Ovators 400 or 600 advice

rsch posted:

With the official announcement of Ovators farewell i feel forced to get a pair of them like alternative for either the SL2's on the main system or nSats on my second system. The former are placed in a smalli-ish room3,60m x 4,50m. The Sats are on our  much bigger L shaped bedroom suite.

The choice would be between a pair of ex demo Ovator 400 of very recent vintage that according to a friend,  showed a more open and clear presentation than ealier one. 

The other opportunity is pair of 600s of ealier vintage (probably 2010/2011)

My question is,  since the 600s have a floating tweeter enclosure, bass extension aside, are them better than 400s on mid/high frequencies reproduction ? bearing in mind that with 600s, there is the opportunity at a later stage to go active if desidered.

 

Regards

Roberto

 

 

I suspect I'm one of the few on here who has owned both passive S-600 & (now) S-400 for any length of time. I had the S-600 for about 10 months and simply couldn't get on with them, no matter how much mad tweakery I put myself through they simply didn't sound coherent.

The S-400 I am enjoying immensely however - a much better balanced loudspeaker that communicates the music effortlessley. Great timing, transparency and beautifully integrated & tuneful bass.

G

 I have had my S-600's for 4 years and they are exceptional. Despite this , last year I had a serious attempt at replacing them on the basis that I could sell a pair of surplus 300DR's, a supercap and Snaxo BMR which with the speakers could realise some £14k. I auditioned many alternatives but nothing I heard came close. The S-400's are good but they lack the scale, mid range and punch of the S-600's to my ears. 

In response to your specific question regarding mid/high performance this is where, to my ears, they excel, vocals ere exceptional. 

As you say you also have the option to go active which does take them to a different level.

If you are happy with what you have, there is no need to get something else just because it's been discontinued. The SL2 is one of the best speakers ever, and the nSats are wonderful little things. Just be happy that you gave such lovely speakers. 

We had the s400's for year and thoroughly enjoyed them. An opportunity arose to home audition a pair of same age s600's and suffice to say they have stayed with us and the s400's found a new home. 

Whilst the s400's sounded very good they could just not match the sheer scale, delicacy and effortlessness of the larger 600's.

I should point out that we use them is a passive setup. Room size approx 5m by 6m but main listening position is roughly a 2.5m distance.

They are quite big old beasts....

Hi Roberto,

IIRC the manuals talk about space to sides of the speakers so this would seem make them more suitable for the bedroom set. Would that be with the XS?

Best, C.

Leith posted:

We had the s400's for year and thoroughly enjoyed them. An opportunity arose to home audition a pair of same age s600's and suffice to say they have stayed with us and the s400's found a new home. 

Whilst the s400's sounded very good they could just not match the sheer scale, delicacy and effortlessness of the larger 600's.

I should point out that we use them is a passive setup. Room size approx 5m by 6m but main listening position is roughly a 2.5m distance.

They are quite big old beasts.... 

Room interaction plays a large part in how a speaker performs of course. 

One characteristic of the S-600 (252/300)I could never get on with was a slightly shut-in quality with a disconnected light bass -  but this may have been a room dependent issue.

G

I have heard a variety of systems with the S400. They have been, without exception, the most engaging systems I have heard.
On first hearing, the S400 impresses as sounding like it is not even there. There is simply no compression, music is allowed to breathe naturally.

The other truly remarkable element is the S400's supreme tunefulness. Although the S600 reproduces more natural sound, they give
an impression of a cooler, colder, darker sound, but not in a good way for my taste.

With the S400 in the system, it is simple to pick out any musical line you care to and to follow it no matter how complex or crazed the recording. 
Such a joyful speakers!

Hi all,

Thank you for your feedback

Actually i' d be more inclined for the 600. Yesterday, chatting  with our friend Max B. he confirmed  the superior sofistication compared to the 400

Christopher, at a first stage i' d keep the SL2 too moving them to my bedroom system.

Regards

Roberto

Seriously? You'd run SL2s with a Sony DVD player and a Nait XS?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Seriously? You'd run SL2s with a Sony DVD player and a Nait XS?

I recently moved the  Rega on this.  i' m also investigating a new digital source or stramer .

At the end if the Ovators were totally superior to my ears than SL2's i would  sell the latter.

Regards

Roberto

rsch posted:

Christopher, at a first stage i' d keep the SL2 too moving them to my bedroom system.

Thanks for explaining. In that case you've obviously checked that there's enough space in the main listening room to the sides of where the Ovators would be.

Naim speakers only need 30W so I think you will be alright with your NAP250 on the S600s   :-)

C.

Christopher_M posted:

rsch posted:

Christopher, at a first stage i' d keep the SL2 too moving them to my bedroom system.

Thanks for explaining. In that case you've obviously checked that there's enough space in the main listening room to the sides of where the Ovators would be.

Naim speakers only need 30W so I think you will be alright with your NAP250 on the S600s   :-)

C.

Hi Chris,

Actually this room is a little undersized for the 600,

For Massimo who came a few weeks ago, really  appreciated my system and he's convinced that they could gel very well with it.  Now i 'd be on the verge to sell my SL2

Regards

Roberto

rsch posted:

Actually this room is a little undersized for the 600,

For Massimo who came a few weeks ago, really  appreciated my system and he's convinced that they could gel very well with it.

Is the 'they' S600s or S400s?

Massimo's dealer has a gorgeous pair of Rosewood S400s though you may already know this. You might be able to borrow them and try them in your space.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, exactly that one,  we are going to demo it this Monday.

Regards

Roberto

rsch posted:

Actually this room is a little undersized for the 600,

For Massimo who came a few weeks ago, really  appreciated my system and he's convinced that they could gel very well with it.  Now i 'd be on the verge to sell my SL2

 

I don't think your room is undersized for the Ovators: not if you're thinking of bass boom. A room's major dimension – the diagonal – can affect its capacity to let the speaker's lowest usable frequency to fully develop, but I don't think that a balanced big speaker will cause a smallish room to resonate seriously; the room itself might act as a sort of high-pass filter and prevent the boom from happening.

It might be a problem of sound pressure saturation, but you already have such an 'issue' with the important volume at which you play music on the SL2... 

Chris,

my dealer (it doesn't sound quite right, does it..?) plays the S400s in a square-ish room not more than 11 sq. mt, and they sound ok; S600s are a different beast, and the few times I could compare the two siblings directly, I found the 600 a little too 'big' and bass-y for my taste, but with a more organic and competent midrange than the 400s. And that is not strange, since the BMR covers the range 300 to 30,000 cycles per second... Only a panel could do better than that.

(Anyway, my humble opinion is that in the home you can pursue essentially three types of reproduction: lifelikeness – which means large spaces, huge and hugely costly systems and unpredictable results, none of them more interesting than reality itself; a sort of expanded background listening – where you are more distant (physically or mentally) from the system than you'd want – and a few variations of near field listening. And that as far as HiFi is concerned, the last type is more or less the greatest fun.)

M.

Thanks both. C.

Massimo Bertola posted:

(Anyway, my humble opinion is that in the home you can pursue essentially three types of reproduction: lifelikeness – which means large spaces, huge and hugely costly systems and unpredictable results, none of them more interesting than reality itself; a sort of expanded background listening – where you are more distant (physically or mentally) from the system than you'd want – and a few variations of near field listening. And that as far as HiFi is concerned, the last type is more or less the greatest fun.)

M.

Good point Massimo !

R.

Rooms rooms rooms...... It's all that matters. I owned S400 and S600. The first worked, the second much less so. I also had SL2 at the same time, in a different room which worked far better than the room where the Ovators sat. 

Ovators are different to SL2, not better and not worse, just different.

The room is key. I know of one other here who preferred the S-400 and commented 'where the fluke is the bass?' when he tried the S-600 in the same space.

G

GraemeH posted:

The room is key. I know of one other here who preferred the S-400 and commented 'where the fluke is the bass?' when he tried the S-600 in the same space.

G

Spot on Graeme,

For an age my 600's were lacking in bass. I even added a sub to compensate. After a lot of "learning stuff" thanks to the forum and DB it was down to set up for me. Changing the order on the Fraim & order of plug into my Musicworks block and the icing on the cake...albeit not as cheap, adding the full SL loom. Now my 600's play bass when the track has it. No more, no less. The Bose "TV " thingybobby" we own plays bass with anything even when it's not there...go figure.

I was always puzzled as many people reported too much bass with the 600's as it was something I had never experienced. Now they just work. 

So in conclusion to successful Ovator set up...set em up well and they will reward and sing like canaries, being true to the music. No more no less.

Dustysox posted:

GraemeH posted:

The room is key. I know of one other here who preferred the S-400 and commented 'where the fluke is the bass?' when he tried the S-600 in the same space.

G

Spot on Graeme,

For an age my 600's were lacking in bass. I even added a sub to compensate. After a lot of "learning stuff" thanks to the forum and DB it was down to set up for me. Changing the order on the Fraim & order of plug into my Musicworks block and the icing on the cake...albeit not as cheap, adding the full SL loom. Now my 600's play bass when the track has it. No more, no less. The Bose "TV " thingybobby" we own plays bass with anything even when it's not there...go figure.

I was always puzzled as many people reported too much bass with the 600's as it was something I had never experienced. Now they just work. 

So in conclusion to successful Ovator set up...set em up well and they will reward and sing like canaries, being true to the music. No more no less.

I tried tweaking the S600 until I was blue in the face over 10 months...I really wanted to like them. God only knows why I was lured by the S400 at Christmas...but they just work. None of this 'a millimetre to the left, back a bit, tilt back etc etc nonsense'. I put them where the S600 used to be and they just snapped into focus.

Listening to 'Peg' as I type and the bass is bubbling along nicely integrated and most definitely 'there'.

G

Anything to report RSCH?

G

GraemeH posted:

Anything to report RSCH?

G

Yep, here we are, i was busy with other duties yesterday including freezing pc on the write up.

This Monday,  Massimo and I were at his dealer for the S400 demo.

For me, in many ways it was an eye opener experience for the system itself and room acoustics too.

This one was built around fresh units of 2015 vintage including

CDX2/XPS dr NAC 282/HC dr 250-2 (not dr) and Rosewood Ovator 400.

 Room set up was less than ideal, since it was littered with unused loudspakers like Magico S1 & S3,  and Wilson

Sabrina among them. Even system support was nowhere near as good like we normally expect. Also on the wall behind S400 was hanged a square diffractor panel, which for the dealer and myself improved the soundstage and focus. Massimo while  was not convinced with it.

We started with a selection of cds that Massimo and I carried along, the playlist included.

Yusuf/C. Stevens - ' Tell 'em I'm gone

1 I was raised in Babylon

Death in June - Abandon Tracks

1 The Only Good Neighbour

2 Burn Again

 All My faith lost - As You' re Vanishing In Silence

1 Your Silent Tears

2 La Triste Quiete

3 SIlent Lady

L' Arpa Barberini - Music >For Harp and soprano in Early Baroque Rome

1 Toccata seconda  Arpeggiata

2 Hor Che L'Oscuro Manto

Massimo cd' s

Fleetwood Mac - Tusk

Paul Mc Cartney - Unplugged

I have to confess that i really liked these Ovators a lot.  Compared with the presentation  i' mused to, which is

ultra clear and forward (not only for the system perhaps  but for the room and seating position too) 

I appreciated a much smoother  transition between audio bands,  I particulary liked the voice and piano

portrayal. For example with my system, generally  i have a very nice rendition with acoustic guitars. less so

with piano and some voices.

 I specially carried All My Faith Lost cd,  a very nice Italian project, with enticing  Modern Calssical Dark Ambient 

atmospheres, with this, at home, I have a sort of glare around Viola Roccagli's voice, with the Ovator i could hear more clearly her words,

 Same story with L' Arpa Barberini, this is a record that we already played at home with Massimo

and i already complained about an unnatural sound of the bass liute (chitarrone) on the 1st track, probably

for an exasperated mic. position on the recording, Btw, with Ovators it seemed easier to live with.

I also much appreciated the vocal extension of the  soprano on the following track.

With Fletwood Mac i was also impressed with the slam on the opening track.

At the end my impression was really positive, compared with my SL2, on avarege they seem easier to live with.

Perhaps they only miss a bit  of sparkle on the mid/high and some of the typical Naim pace but with my 555

source and 552 it could be restored.

For the record,  the dealer and Massimo insisted to let me try their flagship system built around a monster

of Magico loudspeakers, a limited edition of 50 (Q 50 perhaps? with a 180k euro price tag)  + 

Constallation pre/power and Audio Research cd player. Me and Massimo were really emabarassed to say

the least. It sported a big scale but it was  also bland and lifeless. More intersteting was a small system in a smaller room with some Magneplanar panels and i pretty liked it.

Now it' s up to you Max.

Regards

Roberto

Excellent write-up.

Many thanks,

G

GraemeH posted:

Excellent write-up.

Many thanks,

G

My pleasure !

Now i' m considering the following options,

1 Getting the S400 and keeping the SL2 as well, trying them either on  the main and second system and eventually selling the latter at a later stage.

2 Getting the S600 and selling the SL2, keeping the Sats for second system.

Since the 552 arrival, a not ideal room acoustics seems exacerbated, don' t know exactly what' s the issue

but i suspect is the transition between mid/bass and medium frequencies. I also noticed that talking or

clapping hands around the louspeakers and close to wall, i have a strange metallic halo around it.

I already know the S400 should be a very good match for my room, with the S600 if ever  they shouldn 't 

I ' d eventually move the main system in our bigger bedroom, this is not so attractive to me since I had 

to share my space with  wife's  parapharnelia, a situation where the DVD cover of the movie " Un Heure De

Tranquillitè springs to mind  " Egoiste? ... Moi ?.. " 

Regards

Roberto