To pre-amp or not to pre-amp

Stefan Vogt posted:

I'd also recommend a 272, if only as a bridge until naim refreshes their preamp line. Now that they disengaged from building loudspeakers, we might not need to wait much longer for preamps with normal line-level sensitivities, and maybe some treats from the statement S1.

I must admit that is a slight concern. Naim brought out the NAP300DR a matter of weeks after I bought my NAP300. I know there's an argument that says any new model doesn't impact the SQ of the older version, but I find myself paying extra for the DR conversion which I wouldn't have paid had I waited a few more weeks. Of course any upcoming products are a tightly held secret, but I don't think it is unreasonable to anticipate something soon in the pre-amp range that includes technology trickled down from the Statement range, especially when they have already done that for the power amps. At least Naim offer retrofitting which is great, but there is a cost to it of course.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Absolutely no 'issue' about grounding with Naim or Non Naim sources... not sure where that one got started? Just standard system build process. Talk to your dealer if unsure on how to connect components..

I am clueless about grounding, as my other thread shows (Grounding for dummies). However I did pick up the view that Naim amps expect the source component to be grounded, and some non-Naim source components (eg. Chord DACs ?) are not. Apparently this can introduce an issue for SQ (hum ?) requiring separate action to ground that source component. Not a major problem to fix apparently but an issue nonetheless.

Will99 posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Absolutely no 'issue' about grounding with Naim or Non Naim sources... not sure where that one got started? Just standard system build process. Talk to your dealer if unsure on how to connect components..

I am clueless about grounding, as my other thread shows (Grounding for dummies). However I did pick up the view that Naim amps expect the source component to be grounded, and some non-Naim source components (eg. Chord DACs ?) are not. Apparently this can introduce an issue for SQ (hum ?) requiring separate action to ground that source component. Not a major problem to fix apparently but an issue nonetheless.

Just to remind you, I did post this on your Mac and DAC thread a few days ago in response to your grounding concerns:

I suggest reading this thread: https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/ndx-and-chord-hugo, and meanwhile Chord say this :-

"How do I cure a buzz when connecting Hugo to a Naim amplifier as a line level source.
Naim amplification has the mains safety ground and the signal ground separated. Naim grounds at source.

To ensure that there is no possibility of mains hum or buzz when the Hugo is connected to a mains charger, it is simply necessary to ground the Hugo as it will be a source component, and Naim expects it to be grounded.

The easiest way is to connect a wire from the earth pin of a standard 13A plugtop to the Naim Supernait terminal marked 'SIGNAL GROUND' on the back panel. This terminal is internally connected to the braid of the signal connections connecting Hugo to the Naim amplifier.

There are no high currents or voltages involved and a simple piece of thin flexible insulated wire will suffice.

The 13A plugtop with the single earth wire added is plugged into the wall adjacent to the Naim amplifier mains plug and completes the ground path and eliminates the hum.

(This is often not required as introducing a correctly wired Naim source into the system will deal with the signal and electrical ground connection and so no hum would ever be experienced.)"

Innocent Bystander posted:

Just to remind you, I did post this on your Mac and DAC thread a few days ago in response to your grounding concerns:

.......

Yes of course I did read that and thanks for that advice. I was merely replying to Simon-in-Suffolk's statement that there should be no issue with grounding for Naim or non-Naim sources.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Halloween Man posted:

i use hugo tt as pre. it sounds beautiful, very transparent/doesnt colour the sound, renders every nuance, and is never fatiguing. has remote control. as you only listen to digital sources it may well be a good match for you to.

Out of curiosity, have you heard DAVE, and if so how does it compare with TT (at nearly 3x the price)

Sorry, no. Out of my budget. There is a thread about this elsewhere I think.

Stefan Vogt posted:

I'd also recommend a 272, if only as a bridge until naim refreshes their preamp line. Now that they disengaged from building loudspeakers, we might not need to wait much longer for preamps with normal line-level sensitivities, and maybe some treats from the statement S1. I also compared my previous 282 directly against my 272 and didn't make out clear differences. If you wanted to enhance on the 272's DAC (which I thought was on NDX level), you could add a chord 2Qute.

S.

Hi Stefan,

So for those not needing all the analog inputs and record-out facilities of a 282, perhaps a 272 is a 282 (+HCDR?) "on the cheap"? Not only that, you get a nice volume control and a headphone amp and streamer thrown in for free, even if you don't use them. Plus a mix of analogue and digital inputs. Perhaps the first of the refreshed preamp line is already with us?

Stefan Vogt posted:

I'd also recommend a 272, if only as a bridge until naim refreshes their preamp line. Now that they disengaged from building loudspeakers, we might not need to wait much longer for preamps with normal line-level sensitivities, and maybe some treats from the statement S1. I also compared my previous 282 directly against my 272 and didn't make out clear differences. If you wanted to enhance on the 272's DAC (which I thought was on NDX level), you could add a chord 2Qute.

S.

Just intrigued on how an external DAC can be used with a 272 to upgrade its built in DAC?

Allan Probin posted:

Stefan Vogt posted:

I'd also recommend a 272, if only as a bridge until naim refreshes their preamp line. Now that they disengaged from building loudspeakers, we might not need to wait much longer for preamps with normal line-level sensitivities, and maybe some treats from the statement S1. I also compared my previous 282 directly against my 272 and didn't make out clear differences. If you wanted to enhance on the 272's DAC (which I thought was on NDX level), you could add a chord 2Qute.

S.

Hi Stefan,

So for those not needing all the analog inputs and record-out facilities of a 282, perhaps a 272 is a 282 (+HCDR?) "on the cheap"? Not only that, you get a nice volume control and a headphone amp and streamer thrown in for free, even if you don't use them. Plus a mix of analogue and digital inputs. Perhaps the first of the refreshed preamp line is already with us?

Very interesting, you can buy a 282 or a 272 and not use all of their features.

Jude2012 posted:

 

Just intrigued on how an external DAC can be used with a 272 to upgrade its built in DAC?

 

You can't take a digital feed out to an external DAC then back into it's analogue input, so there's a lot of redundancy at one end or the other if you do this. 

ChrisSU posted:

Jude2012 posted:

 

Just intrigued on how an external DAC can be used with a 272 to upgrade its built in DAC?

 

You can't take a digital feed out to an external DAC then back into it's analogue input, so there's a lot of redundancy at one end or the other if you do this. 

Exactly.  However, it looks like Stefan's had experience of this ? Presumably he thought the SQ benefits were worth the redundancies? 

ChrisSU posted:

You can't take a digital feed out to an external DAC then back into it's analogue input, so there's a lot of redundancy at one end or the other if you do this. 

Actually I was wondering about this. Looking at my options I am thinking that best SQ may come from Option 1 :- add 252/SC and change the DAC-V1 for a Hugo (all to be confirmed by auditioning of course). However adding up the cost (new) including two new Fraim shelves I'm not sure my budget can stretch to that just now, so I was thinking just to bring the Hugo in now and save up a bit more to get the pre-amp later. However it would be good if I could 'bolt on' the Hugo to the DAC-V1 so I could still use the pre-amp and (remote) volume control of the DAC-V1 until I get the 252/SC further down the track. It also means I could get the standard Hugo instead of the Hugo TT (for its remote volume control).

Sadly I don't think this is possible.

I could afford N272 & XPSDR right now though so maybe that will be the way I go.

Or - get a Hugo and a pre-loved 252 and Supercap and do the whole lot now.

I think it is important to consider the system as a whole and not just whether one dac is "better" than another. 

Appreciating there is often a tendency to promote one's own system as the best option, I think the 272/250DR is an example of a total system being greater than the sum of its parts. I have only ever heard an NDS with an XPS, running through a 282/250 and I believe my 272/555DR & 250DR gives it a good run for the money and less boxes.

There is a digital out on the 272 so I guess you could try pushing that into a Hugo and going back into one of the analogue inputs on the 272 to bypass the internal dac??? But at that point it seems pretty pointless buying the 272.

You cannot do that. You'd need the 272 into the Hugo and the Hugo into another preamp. 

Harty601 posted:

I think it is important to consider the system as a whole and not just whether one dac is "better" than another. 

Appreciating there is often a tendency to promote one's own system as the best option, I think the 272/250DR is an example of a total system being greater than the sum of its parts. I have only ever heard an NDS with an XPS, running through a 282/250 and I believe my 272/555DR & 250DR gives it a good run for the money and less boxes.

There is a digital out on the 272 so I guess you could try pushing that into a Hugo and going back into one of the analogue inputs on the 272 to bypass the internal dac??? But at that point it seems pretty pointless buying the 272.

This point really goes back to the OP's other thread - https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...08#55208644550911208

Will, try a 272 or a 252/282 with the V1 and see what you think of the result.  You may end up with a V1 or Hugo 282/SC/250DR.

One thing I did notice when auditioning my amps was the (to my ears) massive uplift in performance when going from 282/HC/250.2 to 282/SC/250.2. It was a jaw-dropping moment, even though I did end up chucking that combo out for a 300 by itself. I did prefer the 300 by itself (just) but also part of that decision was that I thought it was a more stable platform for further upgrades.

Anyway - I need to see what my dealer has for me to listen to ...

Hungryhalibut posted:

You cannot do that. You'd need the 272 into the Hugo and the Hugo into another preamp. 

I suspected I might be talking horse s**t.

Hungryhalibut posted:

You cannot do that. You'd need the 272 into the Hugo and the Hugo into another preamp. 

I feared I may have been talking horse s**t - hence the ???? 

If you think about it you will see why it won't work. If the Hugo is connected to (say) the input called analogue 1. You cannot play the upnp input as you have to select analogue 1. You could of course connect something to the Hugo, but then the Hugo's analogue output would go through the 272's DAC. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

If you think about it you will see why it won't work. If the Hugo is connected to (say) the input called analogue 1. You cannot play the upnp input as you have to select analogue 1. You could of course connect something to the Hugo, but then the Hugo's analogue output would go through the 272's DAC. 

Makes perfect sense yes - I hadn't considered the fact you've effectively need a separate input and output selector.

Actually you can do that because the Hugo is a preamp in its own right. Not suggesting this is a way forward but for accuracy's sake you can do it.

Frank.

Sounds like this has gone full circle...

Mac Mini with Audirvana - isolator - Hugo - power amp

or Mac Mini with Audirvana - Hugo TT - power amp (has a remote control)

or withNaim power amp if you want to comply with Naim's guidance, and/or if you want switchable analogue inputs, any naim preamp between Hugo and power amp

I don't understand. How can you use a Hugo to 'improve' the 272's upnp input? What connections would you use?

I was not suggesting that you cannot use the Hugo between a server and a 272 analogue input, simply that it can't work with the 272 upnp, iradio or FM radio. 

Hi all,

Yes, as CHRISSU and Hungryhalibut said, looping from an external DAC back into the 272 is not possible (272’s digital output -> external DAC -> 272 analog in; NO!), and possibly naim has no interest to allow such in future (even though technically it would be trivial).

And yes, when I’m using a 2Qute as external DAC, this means that the 272’s internal DAC and streamer is not used (e.g. the Aries is a nice digital source into 2Qute). Not ideal, but IMHO the 2Qute has a slight edge over the 272’s internal DAC.

Will, the DAVE (which you had originally considered) seems to have gone out of sight, though it’s likely the best digital sound you can get. Keen to hear back from you on this: will you do an audition?

Best,

Stefan

I'm going to go back to my roots - SQ might not be quite as good - but much more straight forward 

HH, I thought the original response where you said he couldn't do it was that the 272's output would go to the Hugo and this would act as a DAC/preamp. No need to loop back into the 272 since the Hugo has its own volume control. That would work.

Frank. 

Stefan Vogt posted:

Hi all,

 

Will, the DAVE (which you had originally considered) seems to have gone out of sight, though it’s likely the best digital sound you can get. 

Best,

Stefan

As one who's tried DAVE on a couple of occasions, I don't think it is the best digital sound.