cd2x + xps or nd5xs + hugo?

i currently own a mojo.... it is small but works  

so again the question is 282 vs 272 as a pre and NDX/XPS vs 272/XPS as a source... 

lets forget hugo for a while, i can always get hugo as a headphone amp later on and test my self, it is not a big investment as Naims.

I've been looking at the UK price list. The NDX, XPS, 282 and Hicap costs £12,700. The 272 and XPS costs £6,900. So the question to address is whether the former is £5,800 better than the latter. I have not compared the two systems back to back, in the same room with the same amplifier and speakers.

I bought my system for reasons other than absolute sound quality - box count, number of mains leads, inability to use a hiline, its nice volume control and the difficulty of doing further upgrades. Of course it can bettered, but at a price bigger than that I'm willing or able to pay.

Like I said before, either will be great, just get whichever fits your life best. And remember that one person's 'massive difference' is another's 'that's perhaps a little better, but I'm not really sure'.

Remember also that if you went for the cheaper system, you'd have saved enough to get a 250DR and Super Lumina leads...

math is good but if i do the math for 272/XPS/250 vs my current 202/200/HICAPDR/Napsac/ND5XS the difference is £6,500-£7,000... so every time you upgrade there is minimum 6-7k  

i am willing to pay for both if the differences are not minimal, so i am looking for a sweet spot or V/M...

if it will be a jump from 200s to 272/250 I'm willing to pay it but if it is a huge jump from 200s to 282/250 i can always sell something.... my car, bike or house!!! 

1. is it an noticeable upgrade 272/250 vs 200s/ND5 

2. Is there is huge difference 272/250 vs 282/250/NDX 

are they like 7 - 14 - 21 sound wise? or are we talking about 7-20-21? if later is the case 272/250/XPS can be a choice for me....

i don't know if i can make may self clear with my broken english learned in New Zealand....

Hungryhalibut posted:

Remember that while the Hugo will improve your sex life, take three inches off your waist, turn a sandwich into a banquet and ensure world peace, it will not make an ND5xs sound as good as an NDX. 

Actually it does ........

ND5xs with Hugo sounds superior to bare NDX or ND5xs with external PSU

Bearing in mind the difference in cost, only you can decide whether NDX (WITH Hugo) is superior to the ND5xs with Hugo.

As always, listen and compare ..... then decide whether the additional cost is worth it to YOU, despite what others may suggest or try to influence.

The inevitable "law of diminishing returns" will certainly be apparent at this level 

let me understand this. You already have a Chord Mojo?

The Hugo is better, but they are from the same "family"

So if you attach the Chord mojo to your ND5, that is a taste of what Hugo will sound like (more open, more airy, better bass, better soundstage)

I bought 282 without hearing it and am delighted with it (had 202/200)

Also bought 250DR without audition (and am very happy with it), and can say that 282/HCDR/250DR is better than 202/200.

But whether you will think 282/250Dr is worth the money compared to 202/200, only you can know this.

 But the vast majority of this forum will agree that 282/250 is a big jump in the Naim amps.

the 282 has a huge soundstage, spacious sound, and the 250 DR is the first regulated Naim amp (then 300 and then 500). One well known forum member who is also a dealer (frank Abela) told me the real benefit of the 282 is the better resolution and control over the music which gives more meaning to the music compared to the 202. I certainly do hear this.

It has been said that the hi-end Naim sound starts at 282.250 (and now I would include 272/250 too)

If you easily afford it, you could be happy with 282/250 for a long long time, maybe for the rest of your life.

I guess I could say the same applies to 272 also.

analogmusic posted:

let me understand this. You already have a Chord Mojo?

The Hugo is better, but they are from the same "family"

So if you attach the Chord mojo to your ND5, that is a taste of what Hugo will sound like (more open, more airy, better bass, better soundstage)

I bought 282 without hearing it and am delighted with it (had 202/200)

Also bought 250DR without audition (and am very happy with it), and can say that 282/HCDR/250DR is better than 202/200.

But whether you will think 282/250Dr is worth the money compared to 202/200, only you can know this.

 But the vast majority of this forum will agree that 282/250 is a big jump in the Naim amps.

the 282 has a huge soundstage, spacious sound, and the 250 DR is the first regulated Naim amp (then 300 and then 500). One well known forum member who is also a dealer (frank Abela) told me the real benefit of the 282 is the better resolution and control over the music which gives more meaning to the music compared to the 202. I certainly do hear this.

It has been said that the hi-end Naim sound starts at 282.250 (and now I would include 272/250 too)

If you easily afford it, you could be happy with 282/250 for a long long time, maybe for the rest of your life.

I guess I could say the same applies to 272 also.

 

Let me understand this?

You brought a 282 and a 250DR without hearing them 1st?

Really??? 

I bought a 272 and a 250DR without hearing them first. Really??? Yes. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I've been looking at the UK price list. The NDX, XPS, 282 and Hicap costs £12,700. The 272 and XPS costs £6,900. So the question to address is whether the former is £5,800 better than the latter. I have not compared the two systems back to back, in the same room with the same amplifier and speakers.

 

Looking at this from a slightly different, but still price-based perspective, with a £10,000 budget including power amp, you could buy a 272/XPS/250DR or NDX/282/200DR for near enough the same price. I spent some time comparing these two options last year, and preferred the latter. There are those who will say that the NDX and/or 282 are only worth bothering with if you add an external PS, but my ears told me to buck the trend and go for this system, which I'm in the process of buying one box at a time.  

If I was in the OPs position, I'd just replace the ND5/202 with NDX/282. Then the Hugo option is still a possibility. I believe a 272 would need an XPS to compete with this system, although the Hugo wouldn't really fit in. 

Mac Mini, Hugo, 282 and replace the Mac Mini with an NDX when funds allow

Agree with dayjay

282 alone gives a big jump in performance and 200 is good enough to stay in the system.

but for pure streaming you only need a nd5 into hugo

so the only box you need to change is the 202 for a 282 or 272

since you have a hicap suggest the 282

ChrisSU posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I've been looking at the UK price list. The NDX, XPS, 282 and Hicap costs £12,700. The 272 and XPS costs £6,900. So the question to address is whether the former is £5,800 better than the latter. I have not compared the two systems back to back, in the same room with the same amplifier and speakers.

 

Looking at this from a slightly different, but still price-based perspective, with a £10,000 budget including power amp, you could buy a 272/XPS/250DR or NDX/282/200DR for near enough the same price. I spent some time comparing these two options last year, and preferred the latter. There are those who will say that the NDX and/or 282 are only worth bothering with if you add an external PS, but my ears told me to buck the trend and go for this system, which I'm in the process of buying one box at a time.  

If I was in the OPs position, I'd just replace the ND5/202 with NDX/282. Then the Hugo option is still a possibility. I believe a 272 would need an XPS to compete with this system, although the Hugo wouldn't really fit in. 

+1

Pretty much a similar process for me - 282/200 bettered the 272/200.

I demoed these combos with the typical PSU combos and the differences were greater as the PSUs used in combo went up the hierarchy. I was using a V1 as the source for the 282/200 and dealer NAS set up for the 272.

Yep, the 272 would give a low box count to start, but gets in the way if you want to upgrade the DAC.  Of course, it's possible to add a PSU to the 272, then again you could do this for the NDX, NDAC (or 282, but you already have a HiCap that can be used with a 282).

Jude

Hungryhalibut posted:

Remember that while the Hugo will improve your sex life, take three inches off your waist, turn a sandwich into a banquet and ensure world peace, it will not make an ND5xs sound as good as an NDX. 

+1, the Hugo needs the best transport source it can get, like all DACs I know, to sound its best. I would use at least an NDX with the Hugo.. Though although adding an XPS changes the sound slightly I feel it is probably not necessary. To me the low noise  bit stream generation provided by the transport is a critical part of a streamer renderer and Naim pay close attention to this seemingly in their designs.. and you pay for what you get in the Naim hierarchy. No doubt a a sensitive spectrum analyzer on the SPDIF output with a test signal would illustratete the comparative differences if you didn't trust your ears.

I run a standalone  NDX into Hugo.. an NDS into Hugo is even better but diminishing returns and budgets etc probably make that an ultra niche setup.

Simon

Hi Simon,

for the sake completeness, have you tried the nd5xs + hugo setup, or are you just extrapolating knowledge gained during your time with the naim dac ?

Thanks

So the debate of the transport with Hugo is there to stay....

Problem with me that i have to sell my 202/200 together, there is no market for them one by one, so keeping 200 as a power is out of question.

So i have a choice of two similar price boxes.... 

1. 272/XPS/250 - £10,330 

+ 3 box set i can get a single rack and have happier wife

+  Resale of hicap which is not big value.

+ £1,600

+/- no more upgrades

+ headphone out - is it a good one? can it drive LDC2-HD800? 

-  Is it an upgrade to be happy for a long time? 

+ new tech

2. 282/NDX/250 - £11,900  

+Hicap ready 

- Need a headphone amp (Hugo or Violectric v200)

- -£1600

-Box count

+/-XPS for NDX/CD2X ( maybe an exotic alternative? ) 

- Old School - classic

i read the review of 272/250 on Hifi Choice which was very good. So the reason i am thinking too much is that i don't like to chance thins often and this system have to keep me happy for 10 years minimum....

1 or 2? i trust your auditions and experience because i can not do mine unfortunately, i love my Naim and every upgrade was a joy in last 10 years... 

Regardless of the source you choose, you can choose any power amp to suit your taste, budget and speakers. Of course a 250DR would be nice, and you already have a Hicap. If you must sell your 200, you could still replace it with another 200 if you want to spend less. If box count is an issue, you could even get a 200DR and dispense with your Hicap. The DR bit of a 200DR is essentially a HicapDR squeezed into the power amp box. No doubt the separate PSU is better, but the 200DR gives some extra flexibility in choosing a low box count system. 

I have heard both 1 and 2, though with different speakers, so it's hard to say which is best. I would think about it like this: if you get system 1 it is complete. If you get 2, you have the scope to expand with an XPS or a different DAC, or a hiline between the NDX and 282. If you want that flexibility, get 2. If you don't, get 1. 

A third possibility, worth a thought before you move on an upgrade, is the use of active speakers/  Something like the 272 with a ATC SCM19As.    This set up would of course, be like option 1 - complete but not flexible. 

Jude

Stringerbell posted:

Hi Simon,

for the sake completeness, have you tried the nd5xs + hugo setup, or are you just extrapolating knowledge gained during your time with the naim dac ?

Thanks

I have listened to the ND5XS and NDX with the NDAC, but not Hugo. I have tried different lesser transports with the Hugo.. I have extrapolated from my experiences... usually works reliably well

Cheers

So any other comments? 1 or 2

 thank you all for your opinions, i learn a lot...

1. 272/XPS/250 - £10,330 

+ 3 box set i can get a single rack and have happier wife

+  Resale of hicap which is not big value.

+ £1,600 

+/- no more upgrades

+ headphone out - is it a good one? can it drive LDC2-HD800? 

-  Is it an upgrade to be happy for a long time? 

+ new tech

2. 282/NDX/250 - £11,900  

+Hicap ready 

- Need a headphone amp (Hugo or Violectric v200)

- -£1600

-Box count

+/-XPS for NDX/CD2X ( maybe an exotic alternative? ) 

- Old School - classic

Emre posted:

So any other comments? 1 or 2

 thank you all for your opinions, i learn a lot...

 

1. 272/XPS/250 - £10,330 

+ 3 box set i can get a single rack and have happier wife

+  Resale of hicap which is not big value.

+ £1,600 

+/- no more upgrades

+ headphone out - is it a good one? can it drive LDC2-HD800? 

-  Is it an upgrade to be happy for a long time? 

+ new tech

2. 282/NDX/250 - £11,900  

+Hicap ready 

- Need a headphone amp (Hugo or Violectric v200)

- -£1600

-Box count

+/-XPS for NDX/CD2X ( maybe an exotic alternative? ) 

- Old School - classic

 

I think you need to get a HICAP to power the 282.

I would say you can't go wrong with the 282 based system.

Mine was sounding a bit sub-optimal due to set up issues, but now it sounds amazing.

as for Hugo you don't need it, as the Chord Mojo does a great job.

Also these are not like for like systems in terms of performance... You need to listen ideally in your room and with your speakers to appreciate which you prefer..and if any betterment is worth the extra cash outlay.

Another consideration is how likely will you want to tweek and change over time? Using integrateds such as the 272 could you cost you more in the long run...unless you feel your purchase will be static for a long time....but again this underpins the importance of listening first so as to banish those what-if urges either way.

Simon