Advice needed on switch from Naim to Linn

Vitus and Dynavector have received good reviews from owners and maybe others

Both brands are not equal sounding at all, both are miles from how Naim sound(like it or not) so its three different routes to music performance

So do you like what you hear now with your four boxes - allways take a long homedem before putting out big money due to others opinion or justification of their purchase

I've been thinking recently about selling my Linn streamer and double solo's and replacing with the equivalent Naim 500 DR series equipment.  I really don't think one brand is superior to the other, but they sound rather different and you need to decide which presentation you prefer.  You can listen to advice from dealers , friends or forum members but at the end of the day, its your money you are spending and you will have to live with your choice.  Everything you hear is subjective !

Hi Joe! I've been thinking about your comments about the inconsistency of your previous 500 system gear. What I've been wondering is whether much of it was due to the Fraim going out of fettle and could be cured by a rack system that is less affected by changes in heat and above all humidity....

b_lund posted:

Vitus and Dynavector have received good reviews from owners and maybe others

Both brands are not equal sounding at all, both are miles from how Naim sound(like it or not) so its three different routes to music performance

So do you like what you hear now with your four boxes - allways take a long homedem before putting out big money due to others opinion or justification of their purchase

I've not hard either of them, I'm just curious to do so now that I have heard the Shahinian Diapasons. It may well be that I have a good listen and simply do the various DR upgrades. I tried the Linn system out of curiosity, but found it an instant turn-off.

Michael_B. posted:

Hi Joe! I've been thinking about your comments about the inconsistency of your previous 500 system gear. What I've been wondering is whether much of it was due to the Fraim going out of fettle and could be cured by a rack system that is less affected by changes in heat and above all humidity....

Yes Michael, I'm fairly certain it was due to the Fraim been unstable in my humid environment.  Set up meticulously, it sounded brilliant, but would start losing its Mojo after a few months.  I fancy a change but haven't pressed the button yet due to upcoming expenditure that takes preference.

I've heard this about inconsistent performance particularly from Naim stuff.  Can't say I've ever experienced it for myself.  The possibility of it being in someway related to the rack I personally find doubtful - why would it start o lose its Mojo? If anything I suspect it must be mains related notwithstanding the biggest variable in this game is those 2 objects stuck on the side of our head.

Back on the issue of Linn - my only experience of Linn electronics is under show conditions which of course is far from ideal but I must say I find the whole concept of converting music from a £20K+ TT to digital and back again strange even if it does allow for room correction.

Regards,

Lindsay

I hope Newbie is enjoying the new Linn system.  He disappeared like a stone thrown into a pond.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I've heard this about inconsistent performance particularly from Naim stuff.  Can't say I've ever experienced it for myself.  The possibility of it being in someway related to the rack I personally find doubtful - why would it start o lose its Mojo? If anything I suspect it must be mains related notwithstanding the biggest variable in this game is those 2 objects stuck on the side of our head.

Regards,

Lindsay

Mains quality can of course affect sound quality but in my case it was the Fraim.  There are many screw threads involved in assembling Fraim and all it needs is for one close to the bottom of a stack to come loose for the entire rack to not function at its best.  The screw threads in the Fraim are tightened between MDF which can expand and contract in high humidity environments with wide variations in temperature.  In the Tropics, a room can change from say 23 degrees Celsius and 45% Relative humidity when the aircon is on, to 38 degrees Celsius and 95% Relative humidity when the aircon is turned off and the windows opened.  If you have never experienced an improvement after a Fraim rebuild, then I guess you are very fortunate.

joesilva posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I've heard this about inconsistent performance particularly from Naim stuff.  Can't say I've ever experienced it for myself.  The possibility of it being in someway related to the rack I personally find doubtful - why would it start o lose its Mojo? If anything I suspect it must be mains related notwithstanding the biggest variable in this game is those 2 objects stuck on the side of our head.

Regards,

Lindsay

Mains quality can of course affect sound quality but in my case it was the Fraim.  There are many screw threads involved in assembling Fraim and all it needs is for one close to the bottom of a stack to come loose for the entire rack to not function at its best.  The screw threads in the Fraim are tightened between MDF which can expand and contract in high humidity environments with wide variations in temperature.  In the Tropics, a room can change from say 23 degrees Celsius and 45% Relative humidity when the aircon is on, to 38 degrees Celsius and 95% Relative humidity when the aircon is turned off and the windows opened.  If you have never experienced an improvement after a Fraim rebuild, then I guess you are very fortunate.

Joe  - I'm a Quadraspire person - would love a Fraim and perhaps one day will be able to make the investment!  Next up DR the XPS2 and hi-caps!!

Regards,

Lindsay

I had active linn Saras followed by Isobariks before my current system and loved the excitement they generated. Then heard there next generation top of the range speakers while showing some friends around harrods one day. £60k for a system which sounded boring and totally unexciting, indeed not a huge amount more than reasonable background music, really put me off.  yes the system was set up like Dixons used to promote their matsui music centre things, but even so, some qualities should have shone through. Unfortunately since I've heard little from linn to change my mind back.

With regard to vitus. I had set off pulling a naim 500 system together, but changed directions in mid stream after hearing the vitus signature series. Love the openness, excitement, and emotion it produces. While auditioning turntables I was demoed the SG using the vitus reference integrated into the smallest Estellon speakers. If there was ever a system I would have have walked into a shop, and listened and bought there and then it would have been that one! Absolutely beautiful, so open, detailed, and layered, yet still exciting, and musical. 

At the end of the day though, unless unhappy with a system I wouldn't contemplate a major change, expecially off the back of a sales guy. Would only change if my ears tell there is a real benefit, so best to do some serious listening, rather than be told you buy this or that. 

Michael_B posted:

HMACK posted:

"I personally do not subscribe to the view that Naim streamers across the range are superior to their Linn equivalents, let alone "way superior". They are different (sometimes subtly so), but proclaiming one brand to be better than the other is very much a personal opinion. "

That's a very democratic view and is certainly valid in terms of what induces who to part with their money and keep smiling about what they get. But if you're simply comparing the two to a live performance there is no contest. The Linn has plenty of detail, space and a very smooth presentation, but is not able to capture the instrumental tone and timbre, dynamics and timing of an acoustic performance as well as the NDS. Box count is of course another matter entirely.

Again, not really what my ears tell me. Do you mean a maxxed out NDS with twin top of the range power supplies, or a more affordable configuration? I listen to a lot of acoustic (especially guitar) based music, and instrument tone and timbre is the very area in which I perceive my Linn Klimax Renew streamer to be strongest. I also find that system dynamics via my Lindemann amplifiers are exceptional. I did mention in my earlier post that there were a number of viable alternatives that could be auditioned as an alternative, for example the Auralic Aries/Vega which is certainly worthy of audition, and at a very significantly lower cost than the top of the range Linn or Naim streamers.

If I was in the position of being able to afford a new top of the range Linn (Klimax Exact) or Naim (NDS + twin power supplies) streamer, then I would certainly want to also audition alternatives from Vitus, Gryphon and possibly MBL as well before parting with my cash.

Sure. It's clear and inevitable that no manufacturer, including Naim, will have the best product of every type at every price point. The lifecycle of product architecture makes that impossible, however good the design and production capability. Linn and many others are highly proficient and of course make great products, and arguing otherwise is insulting to their engineers and ultimately reductive. 

Personally, I don't choose Naim because they're the 'best'. I haven't auditioned every possible option and combination, and never intend to, so I don't know if they're the best or not. I choose Naim because they make very good kit that I have faith in, and I believe that in the future they'll still be here making more very good kit that sounds right to my ears. I like what they do, simple as that. 

joesilva posted:

I've been thinking recently about selling my Linn streamer and double solo's and replacing with the equivalent Naim 500 DR series equipment.  I really don't think one brand is superior to the other, but they sound rather different and you need to decide which presentation you prefer.  You can listen to advice from dealers , friends or forum members but at the end of the day, its your money you are spending and you will have to live with your choice.  Everything you hear is subjective !

You are right Joe, neither brand is superior, its down to the presentation you prefer. I have listened to both Linn and Naim at length and I find the Linns more accurate and matter of fact but they lack soul for me. The Naim's are not quite as accurate but are more musical they have life and soul that I find missing from the linn gear. You can say the same for Linn streamers v the Naim NDS, Linn amps v Naim amps, Linn tonearms, v the ARO and I could go on.

Its nothing to do with mains or supports, these will be constant no matter what kit is on it, merely down to ones personal preference.

All I can suggest to the OP is plenty of listening and take your own opinion rather than the dealers,

Kind regards

PB

Pick any components that you like best, does not really matter if they are Naim or Linn or whatever brands out there. Mixing different brands are probably preferred since no manufacturer is good at everything, some are good at amplification, some are good at front-ends.

newbie posted:

Hi

my current setup is an all Naim setup except for a Linn Malik lp12 turntable that I bought recently from the local Linn dealer. During the installation the Linn dealer commented several times that I would be better off with a full Linn exakt akurate system with akudorik speakers. He then went on to price the system as a direct swap but I would have to TOP-up by several thousand pounds. 

My existing Naim setup is Naim Ovator s400s, NDS with a xp5s power supply, a Naim nac 282 and a Nap 252. The Naim nac 282 is powered by a dr hi cap. What the dealer is claiming is that the mid level akurate system with bookshelf speakers will outperform my Naim setup. 

Does anyone have experience of the Linn setup. Will the akurate streamer outperform the NDS ?

i would appreciate any insights or advice that anyone can give. 

Thanks

It's personal opinion in the end. I would rather have your existing system with the NDS. I think NAIM streamers are amazing and there is really nothing wrong with any of your system. If you like it why part with thousands of pounds. If you are looking for areas to improve maybe look at different speakers, depends if you like them or not, many of even the most devoted Naim fans take issues with their speakers, although others love them. I have never auditioned Ovators so I can't tell. I have heard all of the other equipment in your system and it is top notch. I went from a Aktiv linn system (3xLK140, Espek, Karin) to my current Naim (NAC-N 272, NAP-200, Linn Majik 140, Linn LP-12) I personally far prefer the NAIM sound and find myself listening to more music than ever before. However am not a Linn basher, they make a quality product that many get great enjoyment out of... I find it a bit too polite though..

I don't really see this as a Naim v Linn issue. As a long time Linn user before Naim, I still think Linn make just incredible stuff that is well built and sounds excellent but with a different character and upgrade philosophy. The last listen I had showed that the character was generally unchanged but in the 20 intervening years it was me that changed and found Naim more suited.

The trend of Naim and Linn users to build systems consisting of 50% - 100% one-brand components is, in my view, less down to fanboy devotion and more down to the fact that the components are designed in such a narrow focused approach that it is mcuh harder (though not impossible) to successfully match Naim and Linn gear with non Naim and Linn gear. The other side of the coin being that both brands get a synergy in a one-brand system that you rarely find with other brands.

Back in the 90s, the idea of getting a Linn amp to play nice with any non Linn speaker was a major headache for dealers and so matching at least amps and speakers for Linn was the norm. Naim, being extremely easy to match with non-Naim speakers but harder to match with non Naim (or LP12) sources naturally caused most sales to gravitate to one side or the other. When I worked in the trade, half the staff had all Linn and the other all Naim and got on selling each other's favored gear quite well.

The main issue here is the dealer making some very extreme claims that (and I know we do not have the full context of the entire discussion the OP had with the dealer) seem a bit shady and disingenuous. The context, when known could well mean that the Linn system will make the OP's life easier, better match his tastes, and smooth things over with SWMBO. But a mid level Akurate and bookshelves is almost definately not going to satisfy more than the current system (unless the OP really just doesn't get on with Ovatators in which case almost any other speaker may offer a perceived improvement).

feeling_zen posted:

I don't really see this as a Naim v Linn issue.

any non Linn speaker was a major headache for dealers and so matching at least amps and speakers for Linn was the norm. Naim, being extremely easy to match with non-Naim speakers but harder to match with non Naim (or LP12) sources naturally caused most sales to gravitate to one side or the other.

Zen -- absolutely it's not a Linn vs Naim issue - it is which presentation suits you best.

But I don't agree with you about Naim being harder to match with different source components.  An old friend of mine ran a Nait XS with a Rega Apollo and it was sublime, similarly I've run an Arcam CDP on my amps whilst my CDX2 was having a laser change - excellent, and there are are some of us who have found non-Linn TTs to have a better synergy with Naim amps - all subjective of course.

Regards,

Lindsay

Hmack posted:

Michael_B posted:

HMACK posted:

"I personally do not subscribe to the view that Naim streamers across the range are superior to their Linn equivalents, let alone "way superior". They are different (sometimes subtly so), but proclaiming one brand to be better than the other is very much a personal opinion. "

That's a very democratic view and is certainly valid in terms of what induces who to part with their money and keep smiling about what they get. But if you're simply comparing the two to a live performance there is no contest. The Linn has plenty of detail, space and a very smooth presentation, but is not able to capture the instrumental tone and timbre, dynamics and timing of an acoustic performance as well as the NDS. Box count is of course another matter entirely.

Again, not really what my ears tell me. Do you mean a maxxed out NDS with twin top of the range power supplies, or a more affordable configuration? I listen to a lot of acoustic (especially guitar) based music, and instrument tone and timbre is the very area in which I perceive my Linn Klimax Renew streamer to be strongest. I also find that system dynamics via my Lindemann amplifiers are exceptional. I did mention in my earlier post that there were a number of viable alternatives that could be auditioned as an alternative, for example the Auralic Aries/Vega which is certainly worthy of audition, and at a very significantly lower cost than the top of the range Linn or Naim streamers.

If I was in the position of being able to afford a new top of the range Linn (Klimax Exact) or Naim (NDS + twin power supplies) streamer, then I would certainly want to also audition alternatives from Vitus, Gryphon and possibly MBL as well before parting with my cash.

I was listening to an NDS with single 555PS and 500 amplification vs. Klimax streamer and amp. Maybe your LIndemann brings something else to the party? I didn't listen to solo guitar, but piano, quartet and orchestra and the Linn lost the rasp on cello and clarinet, the low impact and resonance of the sound board on the piano, the metal on violin E - it was pleasant and mellow, but lost a fair bit of the weird rawness and presence you get from the real thing. It was much less thrilling and involving, and the timing lost its pulse. I didn't listen for long - it was obvious it wasn't going to satisfy me.

You can call it a personal preference, which it of course is, but not to be diplomatic about it - as someone who grew up with musicians and two Steinway grands, at least one of which was played for hours on end every day, and who has being going to concerts since the age of 5 (and can also play several instruments very badly), I know what these instruments sound like live, and though Naim don't capture it perfectly by any means, I was shocked to hear how far the Linn was away from it. I was expecting much more from them. It reminded me of my most disappointing gear purchase, which was the original LK1+LK2..... I loved my Sondek though. If I didn't love Old English Sheedogs more, I'd still have one....

Maybe some of this was down to the amp more than the streamer. I can't answer that one.

That said I've stuck with my 555, not moved to an NDS.

Michael,

I think the Lindemann amps do add a huge amount to the party (I too am not a huge fan of Linn amps), as does the dynamic power supply fitted to the newer Klimax DS/1 or DS/2 and the Klimax Renew. The older DS/0 definitely has a significantly more laid back sound that some might call 'beguiling', others 'boring'.

However, you do paint a very descriptive and persuading picture of the qualities that a highly specified NDS can deliver, and I certainly didn't have the fortune to have been exposed to the level and quality of live music that you appear to have been lucky enough to experience at close hand during your childhood. I can't help but be impressed by your 'reviewing' credentials. I also have to admit that I have never listened to an NDS in a Naim system of the level you describe, and so it would be really ridiculous for me to argue against your view. If I were to hear your system, I guess might feel the same way. 

I would however point out that the opposing route has been chosen by many more qualified musicians than myself, so it does to at least some extent boil down to preference in the end. I also am aware of a professional orchestral musician (albeit anecdotally) who having owned Linn and Naim equipment moved to an all MBL set-up and proclaimed that for the very first time in his life, he could experience the sound of real live music in his home. Mind you, this system did cost in the region of £750,000, well in excess of the cost of even a 'Statement' powered Naim system.   

I am in the fortunate position of being very satisfied with my current set-up, and so unless I win the lottery, I will be sticking with what I have got. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I don't really see this as a Naim v Linn issue.

any non Linn speaker was a major headache for dealers and so matching at least amps and speakers for Linn was the norm. Naim, being extremely easy to match with non-Naim speakers but harder to match with non Naim (or LP12) sources naturally caused most sales to gravitate to one side or the other.

Zen -- absolutely it's not a Linn vs Naim issue - it is which presentation suits you best.

But I don't agree with you about Naim being harder to match with different source components.  An old friend of mine ran a Nait XS with a Rega Apollo and it was sublime, similarly I've run an Arcam CDP on my amps whilst my CDX2 was having a laser change - excellent, and there are are some of us who have found non-Linn TTs to have a better synergy with Naim amps - all subjective of course.

Regards,

Lindsay

It's interesting that you said that because it is hard but not impossible and funny how things have not changed.

20 years ago, if someone wasn't buying a Naim source I would have been selling them a Rega Planar deck or an Arcam CD player to match with their Nait3 or 92/90.

Hmack posted:

Michael,

I think the Lindemann amps do add a huge amount to the party (I too am not a huge fan of Linn amps), as does the dynamic power supply fitted to the newer Klimax DS/1 or DS/2 and the Klimax Renew. The older DS/0 definitely has a significantly more laid back sound that some might call 'beguiling', others 'boring'.

However, you do paint a very descriptive and persuading picture of the qualities that a highly specified NDS can deliver, and I certainly didn't have the fortune to have been exposed to the level and quality of live music that you appear to have been lucky enough to experience at close hand during your childhood. I can't help but be impressed by your 'reviewing' credentials. I also have to admit that I have never listened to an NDS in a Naim system of the level you describe, and so it would be really ridiculous for me to argue against your view. If I were to hear your system, I guess might feel the same way. 

I would however point out that the opposing route has been chosen by many more qualified musicians than myself, so it does to at least some extent boil down to preference in the end. I also am aware of a professional orchestral musician (albeit anecdotally) who having owned Linn and Naim equipment moved to an all MBL set-up and proclaimed that for the very first time in his life, he could experience the sound of real live music in his home. Mind you, this system did cost in the region of £750,000, well in excess of the cost of even a 'Statement' powered Naim system.   

I am in the fortunate position of being very satisfied with my current set-up, and so unless I win the lottery, I will be sticking with what I have got. 

 

 

A very gracious reply to what could well have been seen (although not intended) as a "pissing contest" vaunting of my "credentials".

I don't know Lindemann. I'll try and give then a listen.

I would certainly agree that people should listen around. I personally only reached a stage of real satisfaction with the purchase of my Shahinian Diapasons, which have revitalised curiosity in the rest of the chain.

I also agree satisfaction and listening to the music not the system is what really counts. Adrian Boult was very happy with his "gramophone" because although the hi-fi then available was much better it just wasn't better enough, and what interested him were the interpretations of his peers, which came through more than well enough.

Cheers

Mike

feeling_zen posted:

It's interesting that you said that because it is hard but not impossible and funny how things have not changed.

20 years ago, if someone wasn't buying a Naim source I would have been selling them a Rega Planar deck or an Arcam CD player to match with their Nait3 or 92/90.

I can recall the Linn/Naim dealer I used to frequent in the 80s - I had Ariston/Rotel at the time - used to quite often provide the Merdian MC Pro player with Naim amps.  I guess the trend started to change - slowly - when a certain TV detective had an early Roksan with a Naim Nait 1!!!

Regards,

Lindsay

Michael_B posted:

I don't know Lindemann. I'll try and give then a listen

Lindemann is a relatively small German Hi-Fi manufacturer whose first foray into this country (as far as I am aware) was with a SACD player that received extremely complimentary reviews in the UK Hi-Fi press. When my trusty (and much loved)old Primare 928 Monoblocks and pre-amp began to feel their age, I looked to Vitus and Gryphon (I appear to be attracted to Danish amplifiers) for a worthy replacement. Both Gryphon and Vitus pre/power were unfortunately way out of the price range I was willing to spend, and so I began to look at their integrated amps as an option. Quite by chance, I came across Lindemann, was hugely impressed by a shop demo and was given the chance to take their 830S pre-amp and 858 dual mono power amp home for a couple of weeks to try them out in my own system. I just couldn't bring myself to return them. They have both subtlety and the power and dynamics needed to bring my Magneplanar speakers to life. 

They may not be quite in the same league as the much more expensive Gryphon or Vitus amps, or possibly even the top of the range Nam amps (I have never compared them), but for me they represent tremendous value for money, if indeed you can possibly call a pre-amp and power amp that retail for £7,500 and £10,000 respectively value for money.

By the way, what impressed me, and persuaded me not to carry on the debate with your good self further, was that your analysis was based on the sound, timbre and dynamics of acoustic instruments. These are the very things I look for first and foremost in my own systems. I like my systems to 'rock' as well, but an accurate portrayal of acoustic instruments is really what matters most to me, and so I was impressed by the argument you put forward.

I have a brother who is of the same opinion as Sir Adrian Boult about hi-fi. My musical tastes are largely Blues/Folk/Rock oriented with a touch of Jazz and Classical, but his passion is almost exclusively classical music. He has a vast collection of LPs, Boxed Opera sets (both vinyl and CD), CDs, and a multitude of recordings made on a combination of cassette and mini-disc players. He is happy to play this vast collection on a hi-fi system that was cobbled together at a cost of around £300 or £400 some 20 odd years ago, and would never dream of spending more on his system. His imagination can transport him back to the live performances at the Opera House as he listens to his music.

I guess that my brother, and of course Sir Adrian Boult, are more worthy of the title of true music lovers than most of us on any hi-fi forum. 

Polarbear posted:

joesilva posted:

I've been thinking recently about selling my Linn streamer and double solo's and replacing with the equivalent Naim 500 DR series equipment.  I really don't think one brand is superior to the other, but they sound rather different and you need to decide which presentation you prefer.  You can listen to advice from dealers , friends or forum members but at the end of the day, its your money you are spending and you will have to live with your choice.  Everything you hear is subjective !

You are right Joe, neither brand is superior, its down to the presentation you prefer. I have listened to both Linn and Naim at length and I find the Linns more accurate and matter of fact but they lack soul for me. The Naim's are not quite as accurate but are more musical they have life and soul that I find missing from the linn gear. You can say the same for Linn streamers v the Naim NDS, Linn amps v Naim amps, Linn tonearms, v the ARO and I could go on.

That's precisely how I feel Nigel.  I find my Linn system very accurate and polite, but lacking the life and soul of the musical presentation.  To me, enjoying the emotion of the music is more important than getting the musical accuracy correct.  That's why I've also been experimenting with vintage gear.

Joe